Submarines as Privateers?

[dac]

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I truly like submarines and keep searching for ways to make them more useful. I'm now thinking of editing them to have the "white" flag, or the unknown owner flag, whatever that is called. Has anybody tried this?

This will only work if the AI truly doesn't know (or at least pretends like it doesn't) where your submarines are unless they are observed. I've watched AI ships sail halfway across the world to attack one of my privateers. (I often use that stunt to bring AI navies within range of my bombers before declaring war). If the AI is going to congregate around my "white" subs, then this trick will be worse than useless.

The other question is how effective will the AI be at using the "white" subs? I remember some early threads where Vel was fairly pleased with the AIs use of a "Land Privateer" unit, hopefully that might extend to naval units.

How about it, anybody tried this and have some results, pointers to pass along?

Thanks
dac

[Solver]

I remember the AI using pretty much subs in 1.21f, maybe because I like to use them. But I see them as useful enough already, especially nuke subs. Maybe give regular subs ability of carrying cruise missiles.

[dunk]

I've never seen an AI privateer. So, I wouldn't think they would build a "hidden nationality" submarine either. Come to think of it, I've never seen an AI submarine either.

[Dom Pedro II]

I HAVE... trust me... subs with hidden nationality are no fun. It sucks when your battleship is inexplicably destroyed in the middle of the ocean by something you never even saw by a nation you're supposed to be at peace with.

The AI never builds privateers because their stats are terrible, not because they have the hidden nationality. The AI goes nuts with the hidden nationality option, and they just start attacking everything in sight. Be careful about that choice.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

i made the subs hidden and invisible and the AI will build them. However, the 2 flags seem to conflict because the subs dont stay invisible and my subs are constantly being attacked by AI cruise missles and bombers, and sailing ships. Unfortunately, i gave subs bombard so they could bombard enemy ships without fear of being sunk, but that gave them the ability to bombard land also and when they destroy an improvement, you get a message about which civ the sub/rivateer belongs to.

[dac]

Thanks for the information, Dom Pedro II and Alpha Wolf 64, that's a bit what I was afraid of. Is there a flag I could use to make destroyers detect submarines, returning them to their traditional role?

It sounds like the AI just gleefully sinks anything on the high seas with a hidden nationality sub, not really caring whether it is anything of strategic importance or not.

So, basically it sounds like a fun experiment, but not a long term setting.

[kring]

Yes, it is detect invisible (or something like that) under unit abilities. Just use Control Click when choosing. I have done that with my destroyers, battleships, and carriers.

I have seen the AI build Privateers, but only if I build them first. Same thing with subs. In my experience, it appears the AI only builds some things if I do.

I will try this out later myself.

[Catt]

Re: making subs more useful (slightly OT from "hidden nationality" flag)

In an old mod I gave the regular sub the ability to carry up to 4 foot soldiers (for dropping sabotage teams behind the lines) and the nuclear sub the ability to carry 4 missles (cruise or nuclear).

Made subs a lot more interesting, and the AI civs used both versions against me.

Catt

[Willem]

Originally posted by dunk
Come to think of it, I've never seen an AI submarine either.

Yeah well, isn't that kind of the point?

[Thrawn05]

i've done this to, and I like it, except for the number of bombers that fly off the enemy cost and kill my sub.


THERE IS A BUG! Turn on that civ color circle won't turn white, it will be the color of that sub's civ. So this is more of a cheat bug then a crash bug.

[Coracle]

The only REAL purpose of subs and privateers was and is to attack merchant shipping on trade routes - not enemy warships. But we could have a hundred of them on an enemy's trade routes and it would NOT effect his commerce, wealth, or trade at all. Which is stupid.

We've complained about this since December and Firaxis refuses to fix it.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Coracle
The only REAL purpose of subs and privateers was and is to attack merchant shipping on trade routes - not enemy warships. But we could have a hundred of them on an enemy's trade routes and it would NOT effect his commerce, wealth, or trade at all. Which is stupid.

We've complained about this since December and Firaxis refuses to fix it.

*Sigh* Coracle, why do you still play the game? I'm sure you've been asked this many times....

On topic: The AI, if I flag something as hidden nationality, will bulid tons of the unit. Turns will bog down, and it eventually crashes.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


*Sigh* Coracle, why do you still play the game? I'm sure you've been asked this many times....

On topic: The AI, if I flag something as hidden nationality, will bulid tons of the unit. Turns will bog down, and it eventually crashes.

I don't know the AI knows when to stop building ships units in general. Somtimes it's good to build land units on costal cities, or doesn't the AI know this by now?

The AI only builds two sea units IMHO, galleys and ironclads.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


*Sigh* Coracle, why do you still play the game? I'm sure you've been asked this many times....

Why do you care? I guess I'm an eternal optimist hoping someday Firaxis will finally get it right. Maybe I'm a consumer activist demanding quality products. Take your pick.

Why don't you care about the problems that still need to be fixed?


To the topic:
Why don't you care that there is nothing that can really be done to make these units useful as no real leader in his right mind would bother building them if they cannot attack the targets for which they were designed - merchant shipping and trade?

[Iskandar Reza]

Originally posted by Coracle


Why do you care? I guess I'm an eternal optimist hoping someday Firaxis will finally get it right. Maybe I'm a consumer activist demanding quality products. Take your pick.

Why don't you care about the problems that still need to be fixed?

Hmm.. he has a point here. I never build subs or privateers because they're fairly useless, except for nuke subs

[Jaybe]

Submarines are useful because they detect other's submarines. Also because you can go prowling in other civ's waters without their being upset at you.

Subs make great picket vessels to warn of invasion fleets well before they make it to land, especially when backed up by surface ships and bombers.

I modified Nuclear Submarines to be A/D/M: 10/5/5 (from 8/4/4), with blitz capability. (I have ALL modern naval units with blitz -- couldn't stand a destroyer not being able to take out a caravel with frigate escort).

[alva]

Originally posted by Thrawn05

THERE IS A BUG! Turn on that civ color circle won't turn white, it will be the color of that sub's civ. So this is more of a cheat bug then a crash bug.

Isn't this supposed to be fixed under 1.29??

[khyron]

Originally posted by Coracle
The only REAL purpose of subs and privateers was and is to attack merchant shipping on trade routes - not enemy warships.

Hey Coracle. If submarines were only used in actions against merchant vessels, why did the Japanese fleet under the command of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto on 7 December 1941 deploy subs at the mouth of Pearl Harbor? The Combined Fleet was out battleship fishing that day, they weren't trying to sink tuna boats. And of course, let's not I-58. That was another Japanese submarine, famous, in fact, for her action againt U.S.S. Indianapolis in WWII. I could go on, but perhaps another day. Germany certainly did utilize its U-Boat fleet to great effect in trade interdiction. But history tells us that submarines had other uses.

Historically real enough for you now?

[kring]

Originally posted by khyron


Hey Coracle. If submarines were only used in actions against merchant vessels, why did the Japanese fleet under the command of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto on 7 December 1941 deploy subs at the mouth of Pearl Harbor? The Combined Fleet was out battleship fishing that day, they weren't trying to sink tuna boats. And of course, let's not I-58. That was another Japanese submarine, famous, in fact, for her action againt U.S.S. Indianapolis in WWII. I could go on, but perhaps another day. Germany certainly did utilize its U-Boat fleet to great effect in trade interdiction. But history tells us that submarines had other uses.

Historically real enough for you now?

On the Japanese navy's use of subs, they viewed them as support vessels for the fleet.

Most other navies of the time used them independent of surface fleets, against shipping, whether merchant or capital ships. The Americans in the Pacific and Germans were very effective in the use of subs against Japan and the Allies, respectively.

The Indianapolis was a target of opportunity BTW. Alone and unescorted.

Also, in the Pacific, Allied subs were used as Search and Rescue for downed pilots, to land covert teams on enemy held islands.

While these were other uses, their most devastating effect was trade interdiction: the US Subs in the Pacific virtually wiped out the Japanese merchant fleet; the Germans in the Atlantic, for a long time, almost did the same to the Allied merchant fleet.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by kring
Also, in the Pacific, Allied subs were used as Search and Rescue for downed pilots, to land covert teams on enemy held islands.

I always thought, in CivII, that subs should be able to carry spies as well as cruise missiles.

And it just occurred to me that a nice new unit might be a hidden-nationality explorer. Give it no attack, but pillage flag. Kind of a cross between CivII's spy and partisans.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Submarines are useful because they detect other's submarines. Also because you can go prowling in other civ's waters without their being upset at you.

Subs make great picket vessels to warn of invasion fleets well before they make it to land, especially when backed up by surface ships and bombers.

Yes, that is a very good point, I also use submarines as the first naval "wall" set up so as I know there is an invasion fleet coming. The same thing composed of surface vessels is vulnerable, as it can be wiped out or seriously weakened by the first wave of attacks following the declaration of war. And they are good for finishing off enemy vessels damaged by bombers. I actually build quite a lot of subs, especially the nuclear ones.

Also, I did see the AI using subs against me. In my last game, I even lost a damaged battleship to a surprise attack by the AI nuclear sub.

[NeoStar]

Ah, the nuclear subs. Besides the missile launch thing they're almost like a unque unit-the only improvement is one movement point.

I wouldn't mind them being better in attack. Subs find it hard to kill anything!

[khyron]

Originally posted by kring


On the Japanese navy's use of subs, they viewed them as support vessels for the fleet.

Immaterial, really, but true. No, they didn't have wolfpacks of their own scouring the seas. But the purpose was pretty well thought out--stick 'em in the mouth of the harbor, and if any of the capital ships try to get out in the ensuing chaos of the primary prong of the attack, use the inherent stealth of the submarine in their moment of desperation to nab them where the Zeroes, Kates, and Vals couldn't. As others have said out there, subs are useful as a fleet screen--sweep them ahead of your carrier fleet to make sure that no one is approaching to nail them--or for other reasons. I don't recommend tossing out sub after sub and letting that be your navy, but they are useful in attacks on military shipping.

The Indianapolis was a target of opportunity BTW. Alone and unescorted.

Not disputing this either. On the other hand, the boat's skipper, Cmdr Hashimoto, didn't peer through his scope, see an American crusier, and run with his tail between his legs because he was trapped in a little sub against this proud, tall American ship. The commander used his vessel's stealthy characteristics to track and eventually send to the botton his prey.

Also, in the Pacific, Allied subs were used...to land covert teams on enemy held islands.

Quite true. And in Civ III, there would be definite advantages to this, especially since it can be done. Imagine an invisible "explorer" unit tucked off behind enemy lines for recon missions. It's actually not a bad idea. As a consumer of scenarios who doesn't have the patience to make them, scenario makers, get to it!

While these were other uses, their most devastating effect was trade interdiction

I still content that they're not lame ducks in scrapes with their surface-roaming cousins, but I grant you, submarines are indeed most famous, or perhaps infamous, for interdiction. My two examples were the only ones I had off-hand at the time (and the only two I have now. *picks the sleepies out of his eyes* ) But give me time, and I'm sure I can come up with more.

And this is a good discussion, kring, I enjoy it. My aim in making these points is just to put Coracle in his place a little. I understand the historical realities of these things, I just can't stand him blithering endlessly here, where he doesn't like Civ3, when he could be in the Civ2 forums making himself useful concerning a game he clearly prefers. In the end, it's just a game, nothing more.

But a pretty darn good one.

[khyron]

Originally posted by NeoStar

I wouldn't mind them being better in attack.

They could possibly use a teeny weenie bit of nudging upward. Not too much, maybe. My only real wish is that they be given a random "first strike" bonus, ala the Final Fantasy games. They are stealthy units, and their utility is stunted a little by the fact that their combat goes on just like any other unit. If the defending ship "detects" it before it gets off a shot, the first strike is negated. If it doesn't, the sub gets a free shot at it, maybe deducting a point from it.

Now with all this talk of me defending subs because of their stealth properties, you wouldn't guess that I love playing the Romulans in Star Trek games. Long live the cloaking device!

[Destroyer]

Originally posted by kring


On the Japanese navy's use of subs, they viewed them as support vessels for the fleet.

Most other navies of the time used them independent of surface fleets, against shipping, whether merchant or capital ships. The Americans in the Pacific and Germans were very effective in the use of subs against Japan and the Allies, respectively.

The Indianapolis was a target of opportunity BTW. Alone and unescorted.

Also, in the Pacific, Allied subs were used as Search and Rescue for downed pilots, to land covert teams on enemy held islands.

While these were other uses, their most devastating effect was trade interdiction: the US Subs in the Pacific virtually wiped out the Japanese merchant fleet; the Germans in the Atlantic, for a long time, almost did the same to the Allied merchant fleet.

It should be noted that the American provided a huge amount of support to both Russia and the allies many year before they "joined the war" in tems of materials and munitions tanks etc.

This is probably why the Germans were quite big on subs. With a free reign across the seas, the far might have ended a little earlier.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by khyron
My only real wish is that they be given a random "first strike" bonus, ala the Final Fantasy games.

Now that's an idea, 'borrow' a good idea for a great game from another great game.

I would say to make that a feature that can be applied to other units - instead of giving Panzer just another movement point to represent its blitz it can ALWAYS attack first! Think of the possibilities!

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by alva848


Isn't this supposed to be fixed under 1.29??

If it was, the patch didn't fix it.

[johncmcleod]

Even if making a sub a privateer in the game wouldn't unbalance it, it would be unrealistic. With sonar, one can tell what country a sub was made in. Each sub has its own signature, and sonar can tell an American sub from a Russian one.

[seano1]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Even if making a sub a privateer in the game wouldn't unbalance it, it would be unrealistic. With sonar, one can tell what country a sub was made in. Each sub has its own signature, and sonar can tell an American sub from a Russian one.

Also a sub can’t effectively pillage a ship, real privateers didn’t just collect bounty’s. Probably the biggest reason there’s only one privateer unit is that historically privetering was dead by the time the d\sub was invented.