1.29 chat : the most interesting info

Spiffor · July 19, 2002, 18:56

In this chat, Firaxians talked more freely than before, esp. about PtW. We got some interesting info about PtW and the patch, which weren't written in the readme.txt

My favourites are :
- According to Jeff, unit-trading is "medium-high" on the wishlist. However, it has not yet been decided if it will be implemented for sure.
- The military advisor now assess strentgh the same way the AI does - by relative strengths and weaknesses of individual units.
- Medieval infantry's adm are constantly tweaked, but are 4/2/1 for now.
- missed naval bombardments will show in PtW : water spouts
- Added existing deals to the foreign advisor screens, which saves a lot of unnecessary communicating..
- PtW will feature rally points ala Starcraft
- There are no plans to change expansionist traits
- The corruption modofier of commercial trait affects shields as well as commerce
- FP doubles the # of optimal cities under communism

AI tweaks :
- The AI values techs higher, so there would be less trading
- The AI will go build UN and Spaceship more agressively
- The AI is more willing to build factories and alike
- The AI values optional techs more in 1.29 than in 1.21

And the SUPER DUPER thing :

Quote:

another change I should mention is that tech cost is now constant across difficulty levels, so Deity so no longer be (quite) the tech race it has been [...]let me rephrase. In 1.21 and earlier, a tech cost the AI 6 and the human 10 under Deity. With 1.29, techs cost the AI 10 and the human ~15 under Deity.

This will change the tech race drastically : it will stop being too slow at lower levels and too fast at thigher levels. That combined with the lowered willingness of the AI to trade techs, and research now has a meaning at Emperor / Deity ! However, Soren warns us these changes are theoretical. Some game balancing is likely to be done when PtW is released.

Theseus · July 19, 2002, 19:01

Yeah, it was great. There was a lot of other good intel... can;t wait to see an edited transcript.

Jon Shafer · July 19, 2002, 19:06

A couple other things:

Diplomacy is on the PtW wishlist.

The units AI are either set permanently to offensive or defensive status... they can't switch back and forth.

That's about all the other important things I remember.

zulu9812 · July 19, 2002, 19:28

Diplomacy on the wishlist? What sort of dimplomacy? More pact agreements? And what about forced diplomacy for scenarios?

Spiffor · July 19, 2002, 19:36

No forced diplomacy in the patch. It's on the wishlist for PtW (like scenario events)

However, thewishlist seems to be incredibly long, and its priorities change as the deadline approaches. When something is on the ishlist, it means Firaxians acknowledge it's a good idea, but don't know if they have enough time and money to implement it.

Kilroy_Alpha · July 20, 2002, 00:25

Which of these relate to PTW, and which to the patch. Does the forbidden palace have that effect right now or in PTW? AI behaviors, etc.

alva · July 20, 2002, 00:32

IIrc: AI behavior is included in patch.

Don't know about FP for communism

Jon Shafer · July 20, 2002, 00:40

They're all for this patch.

Oerdin · July 20, 2002, 01:03

Aren't you?

zulu9812 · July 20, 2002, 05:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
- FP doubles the # of optimal cities under communism

So Communism becomes even more of a 'super' government. Honestly, I can't see any reason for sticking with democracy, even with the +1 work bonus.

wervdon · July 20, 2002, 06:53

Thanks for the info, I can't believe I forgot about the chat cause I was busy playing with the editor :P

Solver · July 20, 2002, 07:56

Craaaap! I got a new Stephen King book yesterday and forgot there's a chat!

NeoStar · July 20, 2002, 08:24

Better hope its a good read.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
The units AI are either set permanently to offensive or defensive status... they can't switch back and forth.

That doesn't sound good, don't want to limit the AI even more. Better not touch those.

Jon Shafer · July 20, 2002, 13:00

Quote:

Originally posted by NeoStar

That doesn't sound good, don't want to limit the AI even more. Better not touch those.

Soren said that much of the stuff regarding that was hard-coded, and changing it would take an entire patch... and it will still act the same (after all, you can un-hard-code it, but that doesn't mean it would chnage), so don't plan on that changing. At least that shows why some AI units will be brain-dead, while others will go on suicidal charges.

player1 · July 20, 2002, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
And the SUPER DUPER thing :
This will change the tech race drastically : it will stop being too slow at lower levels and too fast at thigher levels. That combined with the lowered willingness of the AI to trade techs, and research now has a meaning at Emperor / Deity ! However, Soren warns us these changes are theoretical. Some game balancing is likely to be done when PtW is released.

I think I know the REAL reason for this.

In Civ2 & Civ1 different diffculty levels had different number of turns per game. So turn increments were slower at chief. then on deity.

BUT, Civ3 doesn't have that feature.
Which gived riduculus results, like being unable to make Spaceship on easiest level, while on emperor that happens in 1500AD.

So since it looks like turn increment are hardcoded (there is not such feature in new editor to change), they though that this is best way to fix situation in some way.

And I agree with their decision.

It also fixes the way how AI vaules tech too.
And that's good thing too.

notyoueither · July 20, 2002, 17:11

I think the units AI are either set permanently to offensive or defensive status... they can't switch back and forth had to do with the AI upgrading units.

If I am correct, as the AI builds units they are built for a role on a unit by unit basis. So when it builds 10 Riflemen, 8 may be for defensive use and 2 for offensive. When they upgrade in 1.21, the unit can switch from defensive to offensive. That can result in the AI being swamped with 'offensive' foot units and not building fast units.

With 1.29, that role is frozen when the unit is built. Thus we should see more AI cav and tanks.

Someone who knows better may correct me if I have got this wrong.

notyoueither · July 20, 2002, 17:14

BTW. If I am correct, this would be a very good reason to not let sword and long bow upgrade to infantry in mods. Again, the AI could end up swamped with slow offensive forces.

NeoStar · July 20, 2002, 21:52

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
BTW. If I am correct, this would be a very good reason to not let sword and long bow upgrade to infantry in mods. Again, the AI could end up swamped with slow offensive forces.

No! I hate those things remaining on the menu when you have tanks and bombers!

But if what you said is true... has anyone played a full regular game yet? I hope the AI is building more offensive units!

notyoueither · July 20, 2002, 23:21

Of course, if you don't allow them to upgrade to Marines or some such, the AI my end up with a bunch of useless foot sloggers. I thought of that later.

Does anyone know if the AI disbands some older units as it can build newer ones?

Jaybe · July 21, 2002, 02:02

Let's see, Swords upgrade to Assault Infantry, Assault Infantry upgrade to Tanks.
Longbows upgrade to ..., uh, (well, you get the idea) ....

Now all someone has to do is make up the stats and graphics for the Assualt Infantry, ....

player1 · July 21, 2002, 03:40

Ehh, but in my MOD attack of rifle is 5 and attack of Infantry is 8.

So they can be used in attack.

monkspider · July 21, 2002, 03:44

Sorry I couldn't make this one guys, I had to work. You know if I was there I would have squeezed some spicy tidbits out of them.

Coracle · July 21, 2002, 05:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

. . .- missed naval bombardments will show in PtW : water spouts

. . . - There are no plans to change expansionist traits

. . .- The AI is more willing to build factories and alike

. . .-This will change the tech race drastically. . .

Oh, goody. Graphic waterspouts.

Settler Diarrhea - the crazy flood of AI settlers flooding our territory and encroaching our borders - will continue.

Oh, the AI now will have to build factories to get factory-level production instead of CHEATING and getting that production WITHOUT the factories? Great. Now let's end all the other AI cheats, too.

Tech race? How about ending the AI cheating there, also.

And Firaxis remains determined to force that idiotic Culture Flipping on us, but do nothing about allowing privateers and subs to attack trade routes; or even do something as simple as allow us to sort city names alphabetically, or give bombers a range greater than '8'

Nor will they give us back a Cheat Mode as was in Civ 2, or whatever to allow us to switch sides, control accelerated startups, and do other things to minimize tedium and have FUN.

How about doing something about the AI that gangs up on the human with little tricks such as sacrificing one smaller civ to attack the human and basically committ suicide to help the other AI civs catch up? Reputation is another fraud; I am tired of being blamed forever for stuff I never did.

Firaxis' obstinate obsession with Culture Flipping has become a truly bizarre fixation. The concept is bad enough, but it is implemented in ways that are stupid and profoundly irritating.

You guys have a ways to go before you get my thirty bucks for PTW.

=DrJambo= · July 21, 2002, 05:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

My favourites are :
- The military advisor now assess strentgh the same way the AI does - by relative strengths and weaknesses of individual units.
- Medieval infantry's adm are constantly tweaked, but are 4/2/1 for now.
- missed naval bombardments will show in PtW : water spouts
- Added existing deals to the foreign advisor screens, which saves a lot of unnecessary communicating..
- PtW will feature rally points ala Starcraft
- There are no plans to change expansionist traits
- The corruption modofier of commercial trait affects shields as well as commerce
- FP doubles the # of optimal cities under communism

AI tweaks :
- The AI values techs higher, so there would be less trading
- The AI will go build UN and Spaceship more agressively
- The AI is more willing to build factories and alike

Spiffor,

Are these all in 1.29f or are some of these planned implementations for PTW?

lockstep · July 21, 2002, 06:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
- FP doubles the # of optimal cities under communism

Is this really already included in the patch? In the new editor, there's no government flag for 'FP doubles the no. of optimal cities'. On second thought, this could be a side effect of 'communal' corruption (and thus, only for communism in the standard game version).

This should make communism far more worthwile, at least for war-mongers.

player1 · July 21, 2002, 07:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle

Tech race? How about ending the AI cheating there, also.

Hey, that cheaping is over.
What your read the thread?

No sides cheats anymore in tech researsh.

Now, I don't know about tech trade itself, but AI itself would need same amount of research points to get desired tech on ALL diffculties levels.

isak · July 21, 2002, 07:15

Does anyone have a full log of the chat?

I would really like to read it all, if possible.

player1 · July 21, 2002, 07:24

Me too.

LaRusso · July 21, 2002, 09:41

what are ai to ai trade rates now? do i still have to tweak with the files if i want to prevent them trading like crazy when playing with 12 civs on standard map?

player1 · July 21, 2002, 10:01

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
what are ai to ai trade rates now? do i still have to tweak with the files if i want to prevent them trading like crazy when playing with 12 civs on standard map?

Tech trade rate is same as before, but AI now has no bonus on research on higher diffcult levels (nor panlaity on lower level), and thus makes tech more valuable for trade, which DIMINISHES number of AIvsAI tech. trades.

So, tech trading will be more bareable then before.