1.29 chat : the most interesting info - Page 2

Spiffor · July 21, 2002, 20:26

DRJambo :
These are the tidbits of Friday's chat. Some feature are for PtW, some are for the patch, and some are old things we didn't know precisely. For example, I don't know if FP doubling the optimal number of cities is new or old. It's likely that commercial gets less waste like less corruption since the beginning. I think I've always been explicit when I knew a feature was in PtW.

Isak :
I'm sorry, I didn't take the log. But Markos should make one, and edit it so that it's more readable.

NYE :
About units keeping their "defensive" or "offensive" status ad vitam aeternam once they're built, I think it's not new. Soren arrived later in the chat, and answered questions about past, present and future of the AI. I heared happily he continues to spend time on the AI, even if he mostly works on other projects.

jshelr · July 22, 2002, 13:12

I've only played once game on a small map with the patch. One game proves nothing. But, so far, it looks like the tech race has changed. I was on Emperor and by the industrial age was leading the pack clearly. This happened before, but not often. It'll be interesting to see if this was an oddball game or the new norm.

zulu9812 · July 22, 2002, 13:23

Quote:

Originally posted by isak
Does anyone have a full log of the chat?

I would really like to read it all, if possible.

I'm surprised Mark or Dan haven't put it up already.

dunk · July 22, 2002, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
No forced diplomacy in the patch. It's on the wishlist for PtW (like scenario events)

This doesn't look good to me. It means that they're still discussing whether or not to put it in. Even in MP scenarios, you should know who you have to fight before you start. I'm just picturing the start of a WWII scenario online if there isn't forced diplomacy. Ok, now Bill, you have to declare war on Joe and Rob. Ok, Joe, now you declare war on Bill, Sam, and Jane. Ok, now Jane, declare war on Joe and Rob.

Wait, who am I at war with? What team am I on? Comon. Was Turkey on the Allies side or the Axis side?

No, no, this mod has Spain involved in the war, you can't remain neutral Jack.

Well, phooey, I'm not gonna declare war.

Oh crap, I've declared war on Germany, not Britain. Bill, I have to sign a peace treaty with you.

It'd be one big cluster-f**k.

Catt · July 22, 2002, 18:31

Does anyone have a chat log to share with those of us who couldn't make it?

Theseus · July 22, 2002, 20:54

I was there for a lot of it, and I'M dying for a transcript.

The_Aussie_Lurker · July 23, 2002, 02:19

Talking of the FP doubling the optimal number of cities under Communism, I just wish that they WOULD have this effect as a flag for the building editor-i.e. just the "doubles optimal number of cities" part!! This way I could create my Senate, Supreme Court and Parliament Small wonders the way I really want them to be!!!
Aside from that, though, there sounds like a few more excellent additions to look forward to!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

kring · July 23, 2002, 18:04

EDIT: Fixed aomw of it by recopying it. If you have questions about who said what, let me know, I have to get ready for work. Also, some names got transposed somehow.

I wasn't able to get it to copy, but Bolan managed to copy a lot for me. Thank you, Bolan; here is what he copied:

I wasn't able to get it to copy for me, and MarkG said it would be available later when I asked him. I have some of the stuff copied by a friend, but a lot was missed.

Here is most of what was copied by Bolan for me:

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXISAlex: Diplomacy (and all other events) are on the wishlist for PTW.

Alex4892 are there any plans to enable editing of terrain in a specific scenario, for expample, could it be possible to specify a location in a scenario that links to a pcx file with custom terrain?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Not currently...the terrain system we have is pretty complicated. We're looking at it, but no plans currently.

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS You will be able to place your new terrain in the folder that jeff mentioned and it will show up for that scenario

Bolan Will we be able to trade or sell units in PTW?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Bolan: Wishlist

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Babylonian: Prior to 1.29, when placing, for example, mines, it checked to make sure the terrain was land. Now it checks for a shield-bonus from the terrain type. In other words, I un-hardcoded it.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Bolan: no

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Bolan: We've added victory points to PTW, which can be used to determine when a game is over or who is the winner.

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Pat and I played turnless today and we got well into the middle ages in an hour.

chiefP How does the Military advisor now assess the unit strengths?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS chiefP: It now assess strentgh the same way the AI does - by relative strengths and weaknesses of individual units.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS I don't remember the exact calculation off the top of my head but it takes their stats into account. I don't believe it goes by the actual tech level of the unit since that really has no effect on it's strength.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS It's more based on it's HP, offensive and defensive power and bombard ability.

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS You must understand though that we're wrapping up and are already in test. There is very little that is available for change at this point.

ACS_MarkG jeff, the pc answer for that in this room is ''apolyton only''

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS We love ALL our fansites.

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Jeff can't get back in: LOL

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS jimmy: I've been loking into that but it's not been implemented at this time. It's still on the wishlist

Ijuin_kun Why do I never see my coastal fortresses bombarding enemy ships?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS ljuin_kun: You don't see anything happen unless the bombardment was successful.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS jimmy: No release date has been set yet.

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS ljuin: In PTW you'll see misses finally...water spouts

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS IW: Events are on the wishlist. As we near completion, we begin to re-evaluate priorities.

kring Are there any improvements to Spy/Diplomacy in PtW?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Kring: All functionality is localized to a single new screen.

kring Will it be possible for 4 against 4 play in PtW

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Yes

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS King: Somewhat, but not much new functionality beyond what's in PTW.

kring Any chance to modify the terrain page to add a Change to property so that workers can terraform?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS King: yes. NB: This was an answer to a kingjoshi question.

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Kring...jeff was answering kingjoshi, even more lol

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Kring: We may 'unyear' the turn count, so it'll be turn 1, turn 2, but that too is on the wishlist.

kring What about changing the static numbers on WoW? Ex ToE give more than 2 advance

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Markg: We're working on a japanese dating simulator (thanks Tim Train)

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS The game and the editor use completely different graphics drawing code

Ijuin_kun Anyway, I would like to be able to lock two AI civs in eternal war or eternal peace

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS ljuin: we know. It's a matter of time, money and resources not whether the idea has merit or not.

jimmyh A techy question, Does Civ3 use Direct3D or does it use DirectDraw?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS jimmy: none of the above.

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS SirRalph: Added existing deals to the foreign advisor screens, which saves a lot of unnecessary communicating..

notyoueither Could all 16 civs go on one diplo screen?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS nye: Sure, just not all at the same time.

kring Any chance of faster naval units withdrawing from combat, like faster ground units?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS > Kring: neat idea but not on the menu for this expansion.

Spiffor Jeff : rally points = units produced in a city go automatically to a tile ?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS spiffor: yes

ColdFever Can Firaxis disclose any PTW deadlines (ideas deadline, alpha coding deadline, alpha test deadline, beta coding deadline, beta test deadline, gold)?

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS coldfever: No way.

Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS Pioneer: New interfaces and micromanagement reducers, 8 new civs, new terrain features like airfields...

RoadkiII Here's a question: How could you let down the Civ-community with the unfinished work you call Civilization 3?

OPD Are there any plans to improve expantionist trait?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS OPD: I think our MP players would be very upset if we changed it.

Sheik- If I make a scenario that starts all the players in the Modern Age will they have all the techs?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Sheik: They will have all techs prior to Modern Era. They will still have to research the Modern Era techs.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS To start with all techs you need to set the starting era to Future Era

Bolan Oh!! Any chance of adding the ability for SMALL Wonders to give buildings to cities?

RoadkiII I'll start asking PTW-related questions: How does the real-time MP mode work?

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Roadkill: It's not real time, it's turnless

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Bolan: I'm looking into it

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Gramphos: map size has something to do with it since larger maps take more memory.

Bolan If this PTW is turnless, then does that mean that faster speed access computers will get ahead of the slower computers or is there something that keeps the game even across their uneven platforms?

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS Bolan: the system keeps the game evebn - it moves at the speed of the *slowest* machine connected.

Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS nye: The editor is continuing to be developed for PTW

SorenJohnson_Firaxis um, I'm having a hard time reading... the AI doesn't dynamically switch its units from offense to defense, there are some underlying archtiectural problems with that. However, fixing the upgrade bug will solve most of the manifestations of that limitation.

RoadkiII Q: Are you going to make the AI more clever, or are you just going to make the AI ''cheat''?

Barry_Caudill_FIRAXIS Alex: no new movies...just gameplay stuff.

kring Any chance of bringing back the space race, ala civ 2?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis well, the game would need a high-level manager to make the decision for when to switch a unit's plan (so that an attacking unit doesn't turn around and then change its mind again and so forth...) don't get me wrong... if I was starting from scratch, I would definetly make that part of the AI. But for right now, it is too risky (lesson learned from 1.17)

Spiffor Soren : what exactly are the lessons learned with 1.17 ?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis the mechanics of the diplo victory are not changing... although the AI which determines who they vote for has been tweaked a little.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis the amount of turns to build act as a drag on the heuristic weight of each unit/improvement. so the AI is much less likely to build certain buildings in 1 or 2 shield cities versus their core.

chiefpaco Soren: Are the AI's decision to declare war based on something - missing resources, techs? Or is it kinda random?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis chiefpaco: it is based on attitude, history, relative strength, map position, etc.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis and a random factor as well..

Spiffor Soren : how does the agressiveness of a Civ exactly work ? In some situation, would the very pacifist France not attack, while the very warlike Germans would attack ? How is it calculated ?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis another changeg I should mention is that tech cost is now constant across difficulty levels, so Deity so no longer be (quite) the tech race it has been.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis spiffor: each civ has an aggressivenes rating from 1-5 (you can see it in the editor) which affects various heuristics, such as willingness to declare war and make risky attacks.

seraphin soeren why is the AI that lazy about researching literacy? (repeat-sorry)

SorenJohnson_Firaxis searphin: not sure... is literacy the Great Library tech?

kingjoshi I noticed that the AI will pay more for a tech if there is a wonder that hasn't been built. Would they know if I'm about to finish the wonder the next turn so I trade the tech with them the turn before?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis that's what i thought... in 1.21 the AI devalued optional techs, but I decreased that effect in 1.29

BigFurryMonster Was the human tech cost higher at Deity then?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis bigfurry: that's right... the human cost is increased instead of the AI cost being decreased

Spiffor '' the human cost is increased instead of the AI cost being decreased'' : do you mean the human researches slower on higher levels ? It was the other way around previously (AI got bonuses, but Human didn't get research maluses)

SorenJohnson_Firaxis spiffor: correct

Spiffor This is great ! It means the tech race is completely changed ! Now, it isn't too slow on low levels and too fast on high levels !

SorenJohnson_Firaxis the commercial trait is moved from 12.5% increase of optimal # of cities to 25% increase.

kuukanko Soren, how about the AI's trading techs between each other? They seem to trade any new techs as soon as one of them gets it

SorenJohnson_Firaxis well, as the cost of techs go up, the AI's ability to trade them goes down accordingly (can no longer afford it...)

SorenJohnson_Firaxis the same should be true for a human who shortchanges researching.

Bolan Soren, are you planning on making a group attack...like bombard till you can't blow any more up

SorenJohnson_Firaxis if you are the first civ to research a tech, the value goes up in trading...

SorenJohnson_Firaxis well, you will only get a big boost the first time you sell it as you are the ''sole possessor''

SorenJohnson_Firaxis gondor: strictly empire size, which is by far the most crippling one. a police station/courthouse is pretty effectivfe against distance corruption.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis bolan: there is an auto-bomabrd planned for the expansion

SorenJohnson_Firaxis what am I, chopped liver?

gondor I am curious. Is there an option where you can get a warning that by building a new city you are surpassing your empire limit? I am foggy about how many cities a commercial civ can build before being penalized for empire size corruption

SorenJohnson_Firaxis gondor: well, the penalties only affect the new cities (unless you are in Communism) so I don't think it is too big of a deal.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis accelerated production basically halves the cost of everything (population, techs, units, improvements) It was added with an eye to multi-player, but it was so simple, we threw it in the patch.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis I was shocked during an AI test run of Accelerated Production in which the world was railroaded by 200 AD!

SorenJohnson_Firaxis i think fixing the AI upgrade bug will help them build more arty though...

SorenJohnson_Firaxis actually, it doubles it (under Communism)

SorenJohnson_Firaxis actually, I was always afraid that Commercial was the best trait as it is _way_ more important in the late game.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis late game Rel/Com or Mil/Com seem pretty powerful.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis the Ai will only trade cities as part of peace settlements. Valuing the cost of a city is almost impossible to do with out introducing exploit.

chiefpaco but I can end a commercial civ's life before they get to the late game

SorenJohnson_Firaxis chiefpaco: well, that's the trick, isn't it?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis gondor: let me just say that the ''best civ trait'' arguement is going to be turned upside down for multiplayer

DarkSideoftheMoon Sorne: is there a chance to make the operational range higher? Like for Stealth bombers they can pretty much go around the world (with refueling) of course. can it be edited

SorenJohnson_Firaxis darkside: it is either up to 8 or infinite.

Gramphos If we get obsolete units ther should be an option not to make units obsolete with the unit they upgrade to. (So that Infantry still can be built as a foot unit when the Mech. inf. is invented)

Trip- Soren: What major improvements to the AI can you point out?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis trip: better balance of offensive/defensive units.

SorenJohnson_Firaxis also, you could try increasing the Optimal # of Cities in a sparsely populated map... then the AI will build larger empires.

Bolan Soren, In PTW will cultural buildings and values be the same?

SorenJohnson_Firaxis actually, the ai's are less aggressive early so they can focus on expansion

SorenJohnson_Firaxis agression flag? um, each civ leader has a different aggression level...

kring · July 23, 2002, 18:07

Weird, parts of who said what didn't transfer in the copy paste. If you want to know who said what on some of that, let me know since I have the original Bolan posted at 1BC.