how much better is SMAX over SMAC ? - Page 2

Method · July 24, 2002, 10:59

the drones are always the worst faction in my games. their -2 research really hurts the AI because it's too stupid to probe. its worse for the drones than it is for the believers because the drones don't conquer. they just stay out of the way till digital sentience then they get mad at my cybernetic society. i then have to divert resources to eliminate a 5 base faction defended by fission silksteel garrisons.

i rarely play against the pirates, but the AI does seem to play war-like factions better, especially the hive and the cult. the AI does seem to do well with the gaians. it plays the angels well too.

Pandemoniak · July 24, 2002, 12:01

Well, AI got its favourite factions as well

waab · July 24, 2002, 16:52

Yepp the AI loves some factions, Gaia, Angels, and Hive. But actuly Drones is never bad in my games, the sites on a huge production, free market and knowledge. They are not far behind the really good scientists...

Lefty Scaevola · July 24, 2002, 16:57

Being next to the drones is ok. I cheerfully let them build some of the secrete projects with their high production, then later when the defense technology is so primative its a case of "Oh, pardon me were those YOUR bases??"

Adalbertus · July 24, 2002, 18:02

Following different threads here, I got the impression that the relative strength of the AI factions heavily depends on the map size. On smaller maps (I think) it is mostly the Hive which comes out well. I play almost excluively on big maps (large only when I'm really tired of micromanaging a big empire) and it is almost always the Gaians which come out as the most powerful AI faction. But the Pirates are certainly the most annoying AI faction. Easy to get to war with, they'll snipe all your costal improvements and as soon as you really build two sea units (so that you can enter their base if they have lost the last defender) they are doomed.

Method · July 24, 2002, 20:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Being next to the drones is ok. I cheerfully let them build some of the secrete projects with their high production, then later when the defense technology is so primative its a case of "Oh, pardon me were those YOUR bases??"

that's exactly what i just did. my elite spartan chaos rovers overran the drone's synthmetal defenders and laser squads to capture the VW. Free drone central's scout patrols just couldn't cut it in 2214

MattyBoy · July 24, 2002, 23:11

...actually, I should qualify my criticisms:
Fungboy is fun to play and Aliens are fun to play against.

Pandemoniak · July 25, 2002, 06:13

AI is just reallt bad with the Free Drones. With all its bonus, it wont do anything to be technologically advanced...

Not the same when I play them myself

MattyBoy · July 25, 2002, 23:12

Drones are (too) simple to play,
just build hard and ignore technology, except to find a way to make probes as early as possible.

Use SE choices that enhance this low-tech approach and you'll destroy all before long.

Pandemoniak · July 26, 2002, 04:27

I prefer not ignore technology, but to use my industrial capacity to build useful things to get more science. The better thing to do is always to find a couple of peaceful allies (Morgan, Gaians, Cyborgs, Data Angels, etc...) and to exchange technologies. Then with the nexw technologies you got, you trade them for something new, etc..., etc...

Nubclear · July 26, 2002, 05:11

Quote:

Originally posted by MattyBoy
Drones are (too) simple to play,
just build hard and ignore technology, except to find a way to make probes as early as possible.

Use SE choices that enhance this low-tech approach and you'll destroy all before long.

Really? My play as free drones is that everyone elses technologically superior armies invade my cities.

IMO, they suck.

Pandemoniak · July 26, 2002, 08:23

NO, they dont suck.

They are just hard to manage, technologically.

The simplest way to get techs is to find friendly factions such as morgans, gaians, cyborgs, university, etc... who are usually technologically advanced. Then get one of their advanced tech (buy it, probe it, trade it for a base, do whatever u want), and then you trade this advanced tech with another faction to get another advanced tech, then this new advanced tech will be trade with another faction for a new advanced thech, then... ok you know what I mean

MattyBoy · July 27, 2002, 02:00

To me, reducing the cost of producing to the extent that Drones do removes some of the interest from the game and adds to micromanagement. If it encourages you to play a builder game, that seems not to have much point, when you know that it won't have much impact on your tech anyway. i.e: You know that you'll get more tech from others than from your own research so what's the point researching hard?

So then you don't care about research and can afford not to think hard about production and you have a 1 dimensional game.

Pandemoniak · July 27, 2002, 15:35

Quote:

Originally posted by MattyBoy
To me, reducing the cost of producing to the extent that Drones do removes some of the interest from the game and adds to micromanagement. If it encourages you to play a builder game, that seems not to have much point, when you know that it won't have much impact on your tech anyway. i.e: You know that you'll get more tech from others than from your own research so what's the point researching hard?

So then you don't care about research and can afford not to think hard about production and you have a 1 dimensional game.

No offense, but I think you're totally wrong. You can definetely produce more tech points a turn than Cyborgs or UoP, with more/better cities, more/better infrastructure, more/better terraforming, etc... Dont underestimated the weight of Secret Projects builded for only 40% of the minerals
As well the crawler method works perfectly : one crawler every two turns for an average city : meaning +2 energy if you have just weak terraforming. In 10 turns, you get 2+4+6+8 =20 energy more, 10 turns after u'll have 20+10+12+14+16+18 = 90. I usually stop this strategy when I have no more place to crawl, and then its time for the War.

MattyBoy · July 28, 2002, 20:07

Thanks, Pandemoniak, for putting up with my slanderous accusations. They correspond to my experience, but I was also trying to provoke more info from you on fun ways to play Drones.

It sounds like it is worthwhile to pursue Research under Domai. I look forward to trying to win with him without taking techs from anybody else. Yet to be seen whether I get the opportunity to build any of those projects first, though.

Pandemoniak · July 29, 2002, 06:39

Indeed it is hard to get the opportunity to build SP before opponents. But just think that you will usually build any SP for about half the cost.
As well, the mind worm tactic is really cool with Drones. Since you have lots of industry and if you are not technologically advanced, there's no need to stubborn on research. Just give it away for a while, build crowds of mind worms - since you have good chances to win, despite of your lack of technology.

That is why the AI is stupid. Instead of keeping SynthMetal Garrison, get mind worms garrison and attacks !

MattyBoy · July 29, 2002, 19:24

Yep,
I guess mindworms are a natural response to low technology.

Pandemoniak · July 30, 2002, 03:50

To low technology AND high mineral resources, since they' re quite expensive compared to others units, at the time you can build them

Method · July 30, 2002, 10:02

the AI will build trance units though

aaglo · July 31, 2002, 02:44

I would say that SMAX is 20€ (slightly over 20$) better than SMAC.

DilithiumDad · July 31, 2002, 12:50

I can't believe no one mentioned the GAME KILLER BUG in SMAX! That's the "mystery drone" bug that makes drones appear in the base screen when there are none. This forces you to manage psych from the F4 screen, which is tedious. This inexcusable bug makes SMAX nearly unplayable unless you give up base management and respond to drone riots after the fact.

That said, there are lots of fun additions to SMAX. There is also more challenge for those who no longer find trascend-iron man SMAC challenging. The biggest thing are those nasty spore launchers, which will undo all your terraforming unless you have defending empath arillery. Fungal towers spawn loads of spore launchers, and they are very tough to kill. Also, sea lurks are a menace to coastal bases. Put these together with a lot of new techs, and a SMAX game takes considerably longer than a SMAC game. This is the main reason I won't play SMAX multiplayer --games are too much longer and bad luck with the native life can overwhelm strategic brilliance in a hurry.

Maniac · July 31, 2002, 13:26

I actually consider the F4 screen very handy to check possible drone riots. You immediately see which bases you should check and which are safe because they have eg lots of talents. The alternative, manually checking each base one by one, is tedious.

Gregurabi · July 31, 2002, 15:59

The false drone display bug in SMAX is fixed in the Linux version. (I happen to be the one who reported it during the beta test....

)

DilithiumDad · August 1, 2002, 12:15

If the Mystery Drone Bug is fixed in the Linux version, then it's totally inexcusable not to patch it for Windows!

The problem with drone management from F4 is that you can't tell which bases are about to grow.

MariOne · August 2, 2002, 04:47

DD, we could on the same line say that as the Maintenance and the GA bugs are fixed in SMAX, then it's totally inexcusable to not patch them for plain SMAC too....

Re the false Drone Display Bug, I have a rather limited experience in SMAX, but I'm 99% positive that the false drone is only displayed in the basewindow screen-bottom citizens icons line.
From inside the basewindow as well, if you select the Psych tab to show how the Drones/Talents are determined by the game factors (instead of the default basezone tiles view), you should see the CORRECT Drone situation on that panel last line.