Thread Tools
Old July 20, 2002, 19:20   #1
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Peace Dividend - Winning Sufficient Power
Peace Dividend - Winning Sufficient Power(TM)

We've seen the guns, now show us the butter.

This forum has been full of high-quality strategy and discussion posts concerning military routes to victory. It would be good to have a similar level of discussion about peaceful builder strategies that work on Monarch (the highest possible level AFAIK for builders), so here's one such Monarch strat especially for standard pangea maps playing the Egyptians.

If anyone is interested I'll bump another peace-strat of mine for island maps : Lighthouse Rex - that's reliable on Regent, less certain on Monarch (depends on neighbours). Elements of both strats could be used on continent maps. There's also another ton of words that I could write about this strategy, which has a lot more detail to it, (eg: tech trading , Forbidden Palace, Golden Age & Wonders) and would gladly do so if anyone was interested or wants to discuss anything.

-----------------

Warmongering reaps its well documented rewards of slave-workers, resources, leaders, territory, weakening & eliminating opponents, and ultimately setting up a dual-core civ which when up and running is enough to easily win the game. Since Civ 1 war always was, and still is, the surest and most popular way of wining the game. In Civ 1 you just built a few chariots and took over most of the world. These days 'a few' means 25-30, they'll be getting cash-upgraded to horsemen before being unleashed, and they'll only bag you a civ or two - but the spirit's the same. War is fun, and it wins you Civ.

So what's the alternative? Civ was always supposed to about guns v butter, and of course it is, so what hope for the butter?

Peaceful building needs its reward too to be a credible strategy, and that reward is the peace dividend. If you're building infrastucture whilst your rivals are building and destroying vast quantities of each others' units, then you're gaining relative advantage in commercial, scientific and productive strength.

Apart from the shields not spent on military which go instead to infrastructure, another aspect of the peace dividend is the virtue of not being a huge empire, where many unproductive cities all need enough defensive units to deter attack. These cities cannot support themselves so they have to usually be supported from the core with both gold and shields. I noticed this dramatically in a recent game where my economy took a dive after I broke my defensive pledge and anihilated an aggressor in the late-game. OK, so I got another luxury and some more resources that I couldn't sell anyway, but my other import costs skyrocketed, especially to the little guys, as my civ grew significantly in population and cities.

Eventually you emerge into the industrial era with a tech lead, a culture lead, and a powerful economy capable of pumping out units to deal with any threat, or even anihilate an enemy. Late-game blitzers can use this strat to build a platform for tank / MA rushes, while peacers can surge towards their space-ship (or UN if they're impatient to start a new game ). So whilst I'd love warmongers to read this, as a strategy for late conquest, some parts may come over as obnoxious peacemongery so please excuse that

If anyone's got a peace-strat for Emperor I'd love to hear about it, but this is for Monarch. After easily winning numerous games on Regent without firing a shot, it was clear that the AI was going to need some help. On Monarch the production bonuses give the AI's a clear head-start in military, growth, science, and production - a challenge which forces the player to get savy about aspects of the game (eg trading, tech, AI behaviour) and to use more strategy than is needed at earlier levels.

I don't believe there can be a generic strat for all maps, all civs. You have to play your Civ to its strengths, and those strengths can be map-dependent. This strat suits pangea on standard & larger maps (average land, weather, age) - and for those wonderous Egyptians, whose strengths have been discussed at length on this forum. It's for version 1.21f - I hope that tech & AI tweaks in 1.29f don't render all this obselete the day it was posted.

The Pangea Map

... is helpful for peace-strats because ...

1. Tech rate.

Tech is cheap and fast because everyone can make contact early. This narrows the windows of offensive advantage when they occur: so - pikeman arrive before the enemy has too many swordies/horsies. Likewise for knights/muskets, cavalry/infantry, tanks/MI.

It also means that new building techs (eg: literacy, currency, education, banking) are arriving regularly enough to keep the infrastructure-builder occupied, whilst the unit-builder is falling further behind and still needs marketplaces when factories arrive.

2. Your enemies have other enemies.

Got the Zulus and the Aztecs both bordering you? - never mind, they'll fight each other. The more belligerant an AI civ is, the more it's gonna rack off the others, and someone like the Aztecs can find themselves the focus of a very large coalition all wanting a chunk of the carcass.

Compare this to an island map, where in a current game my hapless (hopeless?) English are sandwiched on a long-ish sliver of land between Germany and Russia. So Bismark's only neighbour and immediate enemy is me, whom he declares war on every time he's saved up 10-15 offensive units, regardless of inconsequential trivia like treaties.

Peace is impossible under such circumstances, but on a pangea, having these two as neighbours is OK - they'll kick the crop out of each other and then get into loads of other wars, creating plenty more enemies. With so many AI's all stabbing each other in the back and it seems that the last civ on their hate-list is the quiet (though well stocked for military and culture) peacenik builder who never attacked anyone. So far with this strat, war has been declared mainly as response attacks to cultural pressure, or opportunist attacks on a poorly-defended city.


Strategy Elements : [

They mainly refer to early-game strategy. More could follow if anyone's interested.

1. Expansion Policy : Rex during land grab.
2. Science Policy : Monarchy gambit.
3. Foreign Policy : Don't Declare War.
4. Trade Policy : Trade! Trade! Trade!
5. Military Policy : Upgrading Veteran Defenders.
6. Culture Policy : Blow them away



1. Expansion Policy : Rex during land grab.

First off, this is not a strat dependent on a 'Golden Settler' start - where either the dice hand out a cow & a game plus several shielded grasslands, or it's necessary to concede yet another humiliating defeat and re-roll the map. Most of my recent Egypt starts have had rivered desert to the north with mountains and jungle to the south, but enough under foot for the first city to get a bite on. This would be grim for a warmonger who wants maybe three or four instant hi-production cities with low-corruption, to churn out the units, but this strategy has other priorities.

The aim here is to carve out a chunk of land which is basically gonna be most of home for life, and once the rival borders close in on your own that's it, save for

cultural defection which can't always be relied upon,
border gaps caused by rivals razing,
or chasing an aggressor over his border and nabbing a city or the whole civ.
late game blitzing

You want as much land as possible, and apart from needing a good core of cities around the capital to outbuild the enemy, strategic resources which you can't see at first will be needed. Trading for them later is a risky possibility, so try and own some by settling the unpopular territory like desert and jungle where they later appear. This has to be secondary to settling 'good' sites for core cities and maybe a specialist settler farm if terrain permits - sending the first settler into the desert and the second into the jungle isn't going to get your civ very far

As this strat won't start wars as a matter of policy, strategic resources can't be taken by conquest later when they appear, (they can culturally - but this risks war too), so the initial landgrab is the best bet for securing these vital resources. The Lighthouse strategy to colonise off-continent islands (always good for strategic resources) obviously isn't an option on Pangea - though there is usually one little island offshore somewhere.

So, desert could contain saltpeter and oil, mountains : iron, jungle : rubber and/or coal, tundra : oil. Also, jungle is excellent long-term territory for an industrial civ like egypt, and rivered desert has food-abundant flood-plains. Some players temporary build rows of cities aoing these rivers, all churning out settlers & workers, though I've not tried that, as I want to claim key terrain early.

For uncorrupt cities with two shielded grasslands, the initial Egyptian worker quickly roads and mines for a total of 5 shields at pop 2. This makes a 30-shield temple between settler builds very viable. This tactic, enjoying both the industrial and religious benefits is unique to Cleo's boys & girls and gives a massive culture lead - there's hardly room on the graph for the other civs. So these early temples push out the borders, reduce AI infiltration, add value to your ROP deals, double up culture in no time, improve respect from AI civs and trading terms, and help get cities flipping your way not theirs in war & peace. Could be a very handy long term investment for the late-game blitzer.

All these settlers and temples don't leave much in the military department, so be prepared to pay out to other civs until the military can be consolidated (see military policy). Use warriors to escort if barbs are playing walkabout and get a regular spearman in the new city asap. Or better, take out the settler with the city's spearman and garrison a warrior in the city if the enemy are not about..

Very soon a wonder city might need to start the Pyramids if using the Monarchy tech beeline tactic. On monarch level they get a row of shields head start, so you need to start early. Too early, and you may not have made enough settlers to get a decent land-grab. In the end, this is for me a pre-build for the Hanging Gardens, as Pyramids is the most popular, but nailing the Pyramids for a GA just after getting monarchy would be dream start. I'd try it but for the sacrifice in early settlers, and a fondness for a golden age triggered by the Sistine Chapel. Maybe someone has done this and could comment.

2. Science Policy : Monarchy gambit.

I used to ignore all research and buy tech with hoarded gold, but have recently deployed the Monarchy gambit for the Egyptians - and it worked. Research full speed to Mysticism, which you stand a chance of getting first if there aren't many other religious civs. This second level tech can help to get into the tech loop early on.

See if you can get a decent return on Polytheism with the research slider set high. If not drop it to 10% and hoard cash. Buy cheap tech with the cash if you want, but wait if you can as they get cheaper - and you might be able to buy everything with your expensive tech if you get it first. So far the AI's don't rush at the lower branch, so if you can get Polytheism, trade it for most of whatever else is out there, topping up with cash. Try the science slider again as your civ grows - assuming there are roads to generate commerce & science - after 15-25 turns at 10% you might be able to accelerate the research.

After Polytheism it's Monarchy - definitely a 40-turner to start with, but if you get there first it's very valuable and tradeable for other late ancient techs. Also, you can switch your wonder city (if a prebuild is on the go) to the Hanging Gardens to get halfway to an Egyptian Golden Age (other half : Sistine / Bach).

Round off the era researching Currency to reach the middle ages, where Feudalism is usually first choice, since a scientific civ will get Monotheism.

Establishing contact with everyone is vital to get your tech costs down - so try to get contact with other civs before buying tech. Shop around and try various deal proposals out with your advisor to get a feel for the value of techs. A lot could and shoud be written about the art of trading, but suffice to say that cunning plans and swinging merchant tricks can go a long way.

Quick example - you alone have Polytheism and want to trade it for lots of the tech that all the others have shared out among themselves. You could trade it to Rome for Writing, Mathematics and Iron working, but it's worth more, they don't have cash to make up the difference, but they have tech beyond Writing on the tree that can't be negotiated in the same deal. So buy Writing first for 70G and that opens up Code of Laws, Literature and Map Making where you can get your full Polytheisms worth.

3. Foreign Policy : Don't Declare War.

This alone is not enough to prevent attacks but it helps minimise the frequency. If all goes well I'll only be attacked once, maybe twice in a game (usually by a suicidally weak civ under culture pressure from my borders). It also sets up the diplo victory, though I gather this is also too easy to buy at the last minute, regardless of behaviour-record. I want all the AI's to be 'polite' or better at all times.

4. Trade Policy : Trade! Trade! Trade!

Trading Resources helps for good relations and for keeping the peace. Also, trade ROPs early on for peace & profit. If the land-grab has gone well, you can sell ROPs to civs with smaller landmasses. (I think size of military affects ROP deals too.) There's a small risk of sneak attack (esp from Cathy) against poorly defended cities, but mostly they're worth having. Larger civs might charge a lot for one, though - and you might need it to keep them friendly.

Gifts can help gain favour and allies : strategic resources to poor, weak civs can help bolster them against a growing rival in addition to eventually buying their UN vote. Gifts to some stronger rivals might dissuade war (nothing dissuades Bismark IMO) and again help in the UN if that it used.

Make money from maps - most of the continent is uncovered early, but you can squeeze precious gold in tight spots by selling your WM for WM + gold, then repeat for each civ, and finally return to the first again as your map is more valuable since the previous trade.


5. Military Policy : Upgrading Veteran Defenders.

The plan is not to attack, for peace-players, and for late-game blitzers the plan is not to attack before Sufficient Power(TM) is attained in the Industrial era

After building one initial regular spearman per city during the landgrab, a barracks city per four/five cities should churn out veteran spears - 1 per city, until all have 1 vet & 1 regular. This is supplemented by a small mobile team of 4-6 war chariots - which can be useful for triggering a golden age if someone attacks at a 'good time'. They might not be all be vets, as the barracks city will have its hands full on the defenders, and other cities might contribute regular WC. I might have 4-6 warriors from early on which can get upgraded to swordsmen, especially if veteran-ed against barbs. This can form a stack or two of robust defense supplements & counterattackers to be deployed in threat-zones. This military is, I find, usually enough to deter attacks and once it's in place the bully threats from nasty neighbours start drying up.

On getting feudalism, I only upgrade the veterans, and then build vet pikes in barracks cities - one for each city, leaving each city with 2 veteran pikes and 1 regular spearman. By this time you should have a feel for what's on the 'threat-board' vis-a-vis your neighbours, and hopefully they should all have a stack of enemies to keep their attentions.

From now until much later, these 2 vets-per city will be upgraded all the way, with extra defenders added later until by Mech Inf I have 4 defenders-per city plus some extras.

As the industrial era matures, virtually everything has been built in the core cities, so they can churn out as many infantry and arty as you want every 2-3 turns, waiting for Mobile Warfare. Then it's tanks & bombers until computing is discovered for research labs, or fission for the UN. For some reason the Romans always attack me during this phase and I often can't restrain myself to a defensive war, and try to see how quickly I can wipe them out. This is NOT in the game-plan, and although it was satisfying to wipe the little twerps off the map it actually compromised the peace dividend, as extra defenders had to be built to keep all conquered cities defended against opportunist attack.

6. Culture Policy : Blow them away

Not surprisingly a builder strat is going to score a lot of culture, but there's surely no-one , not even the Babs (except double game-tile religious starters) that can pull that early temple trick quite like Cleo - without significantly holding up expansion. The following para from the Expansion Policy is worth repeating for this section :

"For uncorrupt cities with two shielded grasslands, the starting Egyptian worker quickly roads and shields for a total of 5 shields at pop 2. This makes a 30-shield temple between settler builds very viable. This tactic, enjoying both the industrial and religious benefits is unique to Cleo's boys & girls and gives a massive culture lead - there's hardly room on the graph for the other civs. So these early temples push out the borders, reduce AI infiltration, add value to your ROP deals, double up culture in no time, improve respect from AI civs and trading terms, and help get cities flipping your way not theirs in war & peace. Could be a very handy long term investment for the late-game blitzer."

Remote cities and strategic resource sites won't be able to throw in a temple quite so easily, but they only need 10 shields and a pop 2, and weren't going to be quick settler-producers anyway, so there's no better thing to poprush.

Later on, there will be library vs cathedral decisions (same price). Go for libraries at the core, and cathedrals for overcrowded cities or for those with little gold revenue for a library to work on. Marketplaces are Highly Desirable Objects too, but carry no culture, so libs get priority at the core, followed by markets then cathedral. If there are masses of luxuries, this makes the marketplace stonger, and Sistine boosts the cathedral.

Although there are many benefits from high culture, culture-bombing does seem to be a causus belli for the AI, and this can be taken in two ways. For the sheer challenge of beating Monarch level without a war, it might be better to avoid it, by having a high culture based at the core, protecting the border cities which are themselves minimalist, or non-aggressive in cultural development, with just an early temple and a cathedral later.

Another view is that if an AI attacks for this reason (and it seems to be this, rather than a rational assesment of relative strength) and it is late in the game, then the player can retaliate against the weak, stoopid civ, and make gains from the war without taking a reputation hit for starting it, which could be seen as a good thing, if the gains didn't adversely affect the peace dividend.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 20, 2002, 21:50   #2
Txurce
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Santa Monica CA USA
Posts: 457
Good work, Cort. Except for tourneys, I only play on standard maps, but your overall approach should work on standard maps as well.

The approach to science in the ancient era is very solid, and the trading advice a great reminder that it's worth taking a moment to consider how to maximize value from your own research.

I tend to build barracks all around early on, but you make a good argument for not bothering with peaceful intent. A key here was the time savings in converting those early garrisoning warriors into a sword defense force. All in all, this is a good program for cheap defense.

One area you didn't touch on is the likely need to grow your cities as quickly as possible, given their low overall number, nd the unlikeliness of building the Pyramids. Where do granaries fit into your scheme? I tend to view them as a downtime build, but they may belong in between temples and libraries on your schedule.

There is an implicit point in your post, which is that Civ3 can be fun for a builder, if one stays at monarch or regent. Many players at this site tend to write off the builder approach because they prefer the challenge of emperor, but the point is that warring on emperor is about as challenging as building on monarch. The same could probably be said about warring on deity and building on emperor - in fact, Aeson just did - but I wouldn't know.
Txurce is offline  
Old July 21, 2002, 06:32   #3
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by Txurce
One area you didn't touch on is the likely need to grow your cities as quickly as possible, given their low overall number, nd the unlikeliness of building the Pyramids. Where do granaries fit into your scheme? I tend to view them as a downtime build, but they may belong in between temples and libraries on your schedule.

Good point, Txurce. Granaries are not my forté and I never get the pyramids - I'd much rather build a library early in a two-food city, which doesn't take long to grow when it stops building settlers. I'm more likely to build granaries early in plains / desert cities growing at one food-per turn, or in river cities with no aqueduct barrier. Otherwise I get fast growth from 4 to 6, and then the granary has nothing to do for its upkeep until the aqueduct is built, at which point the granary is more valuable, I think, because of the larger food box. Settler farms are the other candidate for an early granary.

When I do build a granary, I like to time it for completion just before the food box is full.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 21, 2002, 06:49   #4
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Overall number of cities is low compared to what's eventually from conquest, but not compared to the AI's at that stage.

My landgrab usually bags ~12 cities, in some games as high as 15 with some good blocking and back-filling. I expect the out-Rex the AI civs during this phase, then out build them in the phase just after, when they're still building settlers with no land left to settle.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 21, 2002, 08:56   #5
Aeson
Emperor
 
Local Time: 22:41
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: orangesoda
Posts: 8,643
Well written Cort, just a couple of observations that might help in the transition to Emperor (and in Monarch games also). Mainly dealing with research.

There is a tendancy to downplay research in general in Civ 3. I don't think it should be viewed that way except on Deity, and very crowded Emperor maps. There is a wonderful (literally ) advantage to playing peacefully and being a tech leader from the get go on Monarch, and some Emperor games. Even a tech lead of 1 or 2 allows the player to overcome the AI's production bonus when building wonders. Timing prebuilds (Colloseums work well) makes just about every Middle Age wonder available to the player with a tech lead. From Soren's comments about tech trading changes to the AI, I would think research could become even more viable. A slowing of the players research will be more than offset by a slowing of the AI's desire to trade their techs. When applied to wonder building, this should mean a slower overall AI tech rate, so less domino effect to have to overcome for later wonders.

The tech path you advocate is one that I used to use on Deity as well. It is the path the AI tends to forget about, and gives a player a chance at getting techs first when they couldn't otherwise. On Monarch a tech rate near 100% early on can get the player a lead though, and it can be maintained. Even on Emperor it works if you squeeze every bit of commerce out of your empire that you can. A beeline for Literacy and then Republic can get a player a sizeable tech lead headed for the Middle Ages, even if you don't end up building the Great Library. Philosophy and Code of Laws are great techs to trade around, as they don't really help the AI that much anyways.

When playing on Monarch it's my goal to build every wonder (usually miss out on an ancient wonder or two if I don't get a leader). On Emperor I try for 2-3 Ancient Era wonders and everything else after that. That is using early warfare a bit of course, but shouldn't be affected too much by playing peaceful. The player just has to take initiative on the tech front, and really pay attention to what the AI's are doing.
__________________
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Aeson is offline  
Old July 21, 2002, 10:14   #6
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Yes, I am beginning to see that there is more value to researching early tech than is generally recognised, but clearly the maxed-out research needs to be accompanied by wise trading to maximise the effect, which is where the fun comes in.

From what you say, mastery of the peace-builder game on monarch comes when tech leads and prebuilds can mop up the early wonders. I'd expect such prolific wonder-building to comromise the expansion, though.

Also, I'd imagine that boosting early research by having cities spending less time at pop 1 could be a factor. 3-4 cities on pop 2 with roads on all worked tiles will generate much more commerce & science than the same cities on pop 1. This again, is a trade-off with speed of settler output.

If there's a real race on to settle key terrain, I find it difficult to not to build another settler asap. With more time (sparser maps) it's more feasible to invest in commerce & wonders, maybe even granaries which don't play much part in most of my early cities.

A problem with maxed-out research is that there's little cash around for embassies, upgrading, or buying the odd cheap, useful tech. The sheer maths of the devaluation model meant cash got you more than research, hence the wide appeal.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 10:22   #7
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
This seems to contain many useful hints, thank you. I will read it in detail when I have more time, perhaps tonight when my kids are sleeping. I have only won one game on Monarch without making war for the entire game. That was an OCC were I achieved cultural win with all civs gracious to me.

The score was a mediocre 500. The peaceful builder games that you are so proud of winning never reaches your hall of fame. Seems to me that the scoring system gives too much benefit to early conquerors (simple-minded grunt rushers, for those of you who have played RTS).

Anyone has hints or comments on how to optimise score for peaceful games (except the obvious REX landgrab and happy citizens from early on)?
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 10:39   #8
Aeson
Emperor
 
Local Time: 22:41
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: orangesoda
Posts: 8,643
Score only comes from 3 things. Population, Territory, and Date of Victory. Future Techs can add to score a bit, but it's never going to make a difference (26 FT once, added 17 points to overall score).

There really isn't a good scoring option (population/territory) for peaceful games, other than keeping the # of AI down for the map. That will allow for more peaceful expansion, more territory gives more score, and more room for population.

The Date of Victory bonus can be pretty big on higher levels, especially for Diplomatic which is the earliest 'peaceful' victory available most of the time. A victory around 1000AD is possible, and would net a bonus of around 6k on Deity, 5k on Emperor. I think someone played a 10k Diplomatic victory in GOTM07 (Deity), completely peacefully.

That's going to be about the upper limit unless you play on a Huge map with fewer civs.
__________________
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Aeson is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 13:04   #9
W4r_Machine
Warlord
 
W4r_Machine's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:41
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: of Nothing! Canada, where the sun freezes
Posts: 140
I never won a game peacefully(without declaring war to anyone).

One observation that might be usefull for peace loving gamers is that the AI will always setle for peace once you take two of their cities(not razed). They will also gladly fork out some techs/money/maps even when they are the superpower. This works on all levels, not too sure about Deity though.
__________________
Janitor, janitor
scrub in vein
for the $h1t house poet
have struck again
W4r_Machine is offline  
Old July 22, 2002, 14:07   #10
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Olaf,

This Monarch strat can usually get a space or diplo win with about 3000 points. Not too bad.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 06:27   #11
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by W4r_Machine
I never won a game peacefully(without declaring war to anyone).
It's easy on Regent and a decent challenge on Monarch, and Aeson's even done it on Emperor - you should try it.

Quote:
One observation that might be usefull for peace loving gamers is that the AI will always setle for peace once you take two of their cities(not razed).
Hmm, I just took & held three of Bismark's cities, disbanded (not razed) one, and he won't come to the table yet. This is the guy who destroyed my shot at a peaceful English win on a standard island map by taking my lux-cluster and wrecking all my trade deals and reputation. He's a baaad neigbour.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 11:36   #12
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Quote:
Originally posted by W4r_Machine

One observation that might be usefull for peace loving gamers is that the AI will always setle for peace once you take two of their cities(not razed). They will also gladly fork out some techs/money/maps even when they are the superpower. This works on all levels, not too sure about Deity though.
I have not seen this. On Mark G:s tournament 3, I was in war against China and took perhaps 10 cities before they finally was willing to talk to me. War disorder was a real killer by then. But that was at least 3 patches ago, so the AI willingness to talk might have changed.
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 13:10   #13
Ijuin
Prince
 
Local Time: 13:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 420
Quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Score only comes from 3 things. Population, Territory, and Date of Victory. Future Techs can add to score a bit, but it's never going to make a difference (26 FT once, added 17 points to overall score).

There really isn't a good scoring option (population/territory) for peaceful games, other than keeping the # of AI down for the map. That will allow for more peaceful expansion, more territory gives more score, and more room for population.
I agree. I would like to see you get some points for your Culture. How about:

1 point for every 100 Culture your Civ has generated

1 point for every city that has produced over 100 Culture

5 points for every city that has produced over 1,000 Culture

20 points for every city that has produced over 5,000 Culture

50 points for every Great Wonder your Civ has built (NOT captured!)

20 points for every Small Wonder your Civ has built
__________________
Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.
Ijuin is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 13:50   #14
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
A culture score might be a reasonable part of the formula, though the militarist with an extra 50-100 temples might also clean up on this in addition to their pop and territory points.

Another option might be cumulative points for economic performance per capita.

Then of course there definitely should be peace points, for every xx consecutive turns of peace, and an attractive bonus for never starting a war.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 23, 2002, 15:56   #15
W4r_Machine
Warlord
 
W4r_Machine's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:41
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: of Nothing! Canada, where the sun freezes
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally posted by Cort Haus

It's easy on Regent and a decent challenge on Monarch, and Aeson's even done it on Emperor - you should try it.


Hmm, I just took & held three of Bismark's cities, disbanded (not razed) one, and he won't come to the table yet. This is the guy who destroyed my shot at a peaceful English win on a standard island map by taking my lux-cluster and wrecking all my trade deals and reputation. He's a baaad neigbour.
Did you sue for peace or you waited for them to sue for peace?

In my games if I'm taking on the superpower I'll take two cities at a time and sue for peace. Works like a charm.
__________________
Janitor, janitor
scrub in vein
for the $h1t house poet
have struck again
W4r_Machine is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 04:23   #16
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by W4r_Machine
Did you sue for peace or you waited for them to sue for peace?
In my games if I'm taking on the superpower I'll take two cities at a time and sue for peace. Works like a charm.
I've tried to talk to him every turn but so far he refuses to see my envoy. Never mind, I'll just have to deprive him of more cities until he's had enough. I attacked him this time though, whereas the previous 3-4 wars he'd started, and he eventually sued for peace each time after I'd chewed up enough of his knights & swords.

(Since he wrecked my peace game I decided I wanted to beat tech out of him to catch up.)
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 11:36   #17
phunny_pharmer
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 90
Score question- do you get any benefit from having a size 1 city or a size 28 city?

If so, are two size 1 cities (w/o culture) equal to one size 2 city?

I think I read somewhere that pop does not affect (it may have been in one of the threads here) but I can't find it. I also don't see anything on the score page.

Perhaps the score should take into account your economy and production potential. After all, part of a civ's power comes from its economy.

(n.b. economy should be a function of shields, trade, and percent corruption across an empire)

Would certainly help the investment in the Peace Dividend...
__________________
They're coming to take me away, ha ha...
phunny_pharmer is offline  
Old July 24, 2002, 13:13   #18
W4r_Machine
Warlord
 
W4r_Machine's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:41
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: of Nothing! Canada, where the sun freezes
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally posted by Cort Haus


I've tried to talk to him every turn but so far he refuses to see my envoy. Never mind, I'll just have to deprive him of more cities until he's had enough. I attacked him this time though, whereas the previous 3-4 wars he'd started, and he eventually sued for peace each time after I'd chewed up enough of his knights & swords.

(Since he wrecked my peace game I decided I wanted to beat tech out of him to catch up.)
"Peace can only be achieve through war"-some GUY

Anywho, I usually play the Germans, Japan, China, or Egypt. The Germans only shows up on my Egypt games or German games, so I never have to deal with him too much. Maybe Bismark is a war freak...who knows.

On my curent games the Indians wouln't talk to me cause I've reduce them to 3 cities from their original 14 cities. I started the war, I take 3 cities make peace and continue the war 3 or 5 turns later or when my guys are all healed up and crushed the resistance.
__________________
Janitor, janitor
scrub in vein
for the $h1t house poet
have struck again
W4r_Machine is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 01:43   #19
Txurce
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Santa Monica CA USA
Posts: 457
I just finished CivFanatics' current GOTM, which gives you Egypt on a large archipelago map, against only five other civs, at Emperor level. Most players went for domination, given the probable extended solo research rate. Because I couldn't bear to build a FP in a totally corrupt city, I chose to stay small - just over 20 cities - and go for a space-race win. I got it in 1690, despite having to trade for just about every strategic resource (that's what isolationism gets you).

But what was most interesting about the game is that I played a virtually unblemished builder game. My first war was concluded with not a shot fired. My second came about from a dire need for coal, with only one source visible. I plopped seven riflemen and a settler on the coal tile, built a city, and braced myself for a counterattack. But the Germans ignored me, raiding my homeland instead, and my total losses were ONE (GA-seeking) War Chariot. That was it for the entire game - I neither took nor lost any cities, and barely skirmished. If I had bothered to expand just a little more, I wouldn't even have needed to take the Germans' coal. So I wouldn't be too concerned about playing a builder game on Emperor, except in the hypothetical crowded game that Aeson cited. (By the way, this game is a blast, as Catt noted elsewhere.)
Txurce is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 04:31   #20
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Txurce,

Loved your coal-raid against the Germans and the builder game you describe on Emp sounds encouraging - but did you start on your own island?

So for I've never had a whole island to myself on a standard map. I'd love to try some early peace and quiet, despite the research implications. There might be a distance_from_other_civs setting in the editor which by default means the human will probably have nearby neighbours.

Another question, Txurce - did you enjoy the luxury trading advantage of a small civ?
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 04:37   #21
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Quote:
Originally posted by W4r_Machine
"Peace can only be achieve through war"-some GUY

..... Maybe Bismark is a war freak...who knows.
I thought it was something like "Win peace by preparing for war" (deterrent) rather than "Peace only thru war" (wipe out all opposition). Well, take your pick!

Anyway, Bismark is a war-freak because he and Shaka are the only ones with an aggrssion level in the editor of 5. Even Montezuma's only 4.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 21:35   #22
Txurce
Prince
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Santa Monica CA USA
Posts: 457
Cort,

I started on my own island, as did Japan. The other four civs split two other islands, and there were other large uninhabited islands available. I had an island to myself as the Aztecs in one of my first games, but I think it's much more likely if you play archipelago. In this game, it would have been possible to avoid war with a neighbor, since there was so much room to expand (six civs, large world). You should try the game - it's still posted over there.

Yes, I did enjoy the luxury-trading advantage of a small civ, if by that you mean did I not get royally ripped off in trades. However, the deals got worse as I became more powerful, even though my size was near-constant after 500 AD (4th out of 6)... even with Japan, for example, who was growing faster than me throughout the game.

Here is my last trade, made to obtain the tech that put me in space two turns later:
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	civilization iii pict 0005.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	111.2 KB
ID:	20582  
Txurce is offline  
Old July 26, 2002, 04:14   #23
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Wow, 15,000G + nook-power - what a trade! A lot of players would go to war next turn to stop those gpt's.

As you found, maybe it's not just pop size that makes deals lop-sided it's power as well. I'd love to know what the formula is.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old July 27, 2002, 12:55   #24
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
AI's can enjoy the dividend too
It was one of those large pangea maps that came out as three continents.

9 civs including me on the main landmass, and when we'd found the others as we entered the Industrial era, China had erased India, occupied the whole continent and were in the early Middle Ages.

The 12th civ, Babylon was alone on a continent, and stuck back in the middle of the Ancient Era.

All the other Civs on my continent weakened each other with constant warfare, which China kept getting involved in too, but the Babs sat there safely, peacefully and quietly clawing their way back into the game, until they eventually became a 'player' on the diplomacy screen. Soon they were my 'broker' (the one who effectively sells your tech to the others for you, by scooping up all available gpt revenue for itself to afford full-whack for new tech), and finally my only rival for the spaceship. I think they'd got four parts when I launched, with the rest of the pack nowhere.

So hats off to Hammy & the Babs, who on that occasion recovered from an era-and-a-half behind to come second.
Cort Haus is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:41.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team