The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by La Fayette


A) Never more than 1 skull/turn from pollution AFAIK.

I mean in one city, of course. If you have 10 cities with 12-15 yellow triangles each, you may get 10 skulls at once.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

Why are triangles called chimneys??

I think some of us might call them that, because in Civ I, the warning on the city screen was a smoking chimney (as opposed to a yellow triangle).

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I mined the grass at Red Haven to reveal a silk, but I don't have your "vision" yet. Are you suggesting that the yellow outlined squares are potential specials?? …What do you mean by (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2), describing specials pattern?

Here [see previous post] is an example of a 2-4-2 pattern from the 640 save (with some units removed for clarity). Looks like China Road would have been better placed NE of the wheat to eliminate overlap and catch the special.

Yes, I'm saying that the yellow boxes around Lucky Git and Senate Chapel are guaranteed specials. It is a row of 2, a row of 4, another row of 2. Not that all specials are in 1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2 patterns. Some seeds give maps with oddball clumps of two to four specials mixed in with the 1-3-3-1s and 2-4-2s. I think Mad Mad game had some.

Spicealitum and Sarzana are on the upper side of a 2-4-2 pattern, Spicealitum becoming a 3 special location and Sarzana a double. The bottom of the pattern will give a special to Consul's Retreat.

Here from the latest save our friend STYOM has been busy turning grass into forest, but did not use the prospective special sites. The Spice, Whale, Fish and Coal outline the 2-4-2 pattern, and the yellow boxes are guaranteed hidden specials.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Look at Sticky Mouse: [a plain] would provide one more food (perhaps one more in size for the city) and 3 trade arrows, which means 24 BEAKERS (with help of Lib, Uni, SETI, Cope and Isaac).

[Ahem] Class, please pay attention. This will be on the final.

First, Sticky Mouse already has hills available for mining, there is no need for forestation. Correct? Second, mining the hills takes 10 turns, and foresting a grasslands takes 10 turns, but the mine produces one more shield. Forestation is less productive. Foresting a plains takes 15 turns, so that is less productive than either.

Second, as I said before, "Sticky Mouse and The Institute are located on a 1-3-3-1 pattern and no new specials will be found." No motive is left for forestation. Correct? So let's examine the area to understand clearly.

A 2-4-2 pattern must be symmetrical, so the missing ends would be up to the left side. Both tiles are already not grassland, so this is either an oddball or a 1-3-3-1. Since the map generator routinely removes deep-sea specials (indicated by question marks) this is the most likely case. If it were an irregular formation it wouldn't matter, because the pattern has no possible hidden sites.

Lastly the SSC wonders mitigate the need for hefty shield count, other than the desire to have 25 for quick freight production, etc. As that argument only applies to one city (or at most two cities if Cope and Newton are separated) it is a moot point.

[Straybow]

Now let's look at the work near Red Haven. Four specials (magenta boxes) are shown, but is it a 1-3-3-1 or a 2-4-2? The hidden special W of Red Haven would fit either pattern. To be a 2-4-2 the fourth would have to be down to the right because the 2s are centered. That means we've got a 1-3-3-1 here. The two other yellow boxes are guaranteed, the one below Erewhon being outside any city radius. The dotted yellow box is a far-from-shore site that the map generator removed.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

@Monk

In fact the 1:3:3:1 and 2:4:2 patterns are the same pattern, except adjusted by 1/4 turn (90 degrees of rotation).

If you're going to look for the pattern, that knowledge might help. Open the map editor and look at the pattern on the ocean (zoomed out a bit) - it should be obvious then.

[Bloody Monk]

@ Straybow

Thank you very much. I have read many explanations over the years of how to find hidden specials, but yours is by far the most understandable, to me. I am sure that your use of graphics is the difference. Perhaps their are others like me who need a more visual approach. I think this material would make a good thread in the strat forum if you are interested.

[Straybow]

Yes, STYOM, it is the same pattern rotated 90°, but there isn't any good reference to differentiate. If you want to start at the "top" of the pattern the 2-4-2 and 1-3-3-1 labels would be switched. Whatever works for you to visualize the pattern is what matters.

Still doesn't explain why you forested two non-special sites at Sarzana. Join the Gits in excessive Friday night imbibing?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Straybow
Still doesn't explain why you forested two non-special sites at Sarzana. Join the Gits in excessive Friday night imbibing?

I don't check for the hidden special pattern. Same reason why I don't incrementally buy caravans... it just doesn't seem 'fair' to me, I guess.

And rumor has it that I'm too lazy to be bothered anyway

[El Civ]

Is it my turn? If so you'd better pass me as my home PC keeps re-booting itself (I'm at work now). I don't know what the problem is but I can't even play Civ on my PC and get more than 3-4 turns in before it re-boots and with turns going so long now I'd end up insane trying to play this late game. Sorry guys

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Sorry to hear that, El Civ...

La Fayette is next in that case.

Play list:

SG[1] -vac
SG (2) -vac
El Civ
Julius Brenzaida -vac
La Fayette
Messer Niccolo -vac
Bloody Monk
STYOM

[La Fayette]

El Civ
Sorry for you. Hope you manage to fix this.

(I don't feel sorry for the others, sunbathing, peeping at pretty girls or drinking alcoholic beverages; those people should plainly be ashamed of staying so long away from such a sticky sticky mouse).
I play a few turns (is it 6 now?) before tomorrow night.

[Bloody Monk]

@ El Civ

I seem to remember that you tried the unofficial MPG. It may be that you still have some corrupted files from that "experience". When you got the real MPG did you uninstall all Civ parts and pieces and clean the registry?? Just a thought.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks to everyone for lifting the scales of ignorance from my eyes. When STYOM said so matter of factly that it was no big deal to have skulls around, I decided to test it out. There is no substitute for experience and I must bow to the greater wisdom.

In short, I "played" from the last save and let the skulls pile up. When I say "played" I mean that I held everything as is and clicked thru, doing only what was necessary to keep the peace. After 7 "years" the skulls amounted to 26; and still, there was no Global Warming. In a 'real' game the skulls could have been taken care of easily.

I never tested it out before. Kinda shocking to see how badly I was misled by my assumptions. One last question/request:

--Can someone post a save they may have where there is Global Warming?? Or, alternatively, how does the color of the "sun" indicator change as Global Warming sets in?? In my test it is almost totally white. Will the AI tell you that GW is about to commence??

Thanks

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

In short, I "played" from the last save and let the skulls pile up. When I say "played" I mean that I held everything as is and clicked thru, doing only what was necessary to keep the peace. After 7 "years" the skulls amounted to 26; and still, there was no Global Warming. In a 'real' game the skulls could have been taken care of easily.

Yes.... that's taking it a bit far - the only time I can imagine that many skulls piling up unchecked would be a nuclear war situation.

Can someone post a save they may have where there is Global Warming?? Or, alternatively, how does the color of the "sun" indicator change as Global Warming sets in?? In my test it is almost totally white. Will the AI tell you that GW is about to commence??

Thanks

I don't have any saves like that, unfortunately (or fortunately for me). The sun will start yellow and progress until it is bright white. Then, IIRC, there is a message warning you that GW is imminent. A turn or two later, the message window advises that waters rise, glaciers melt, etc... a lot of land squares change for the worse, but the seas don't actually rise (turning land squares to sea doesn't happen).

Then the process starts again, gradually, if you still leave the pollution around. Of course, you should never let things go this far.

If you have ToT, the (long completed) Invasion Earth game has some brutal episodes of global warming, largely due to nukes.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


Yes.... that's taking it a bit far - the only time I can imagine that many skulls piling up unchecked would be a nuclear war situation.

I went a bit far, yes. I was proving your point that you don't have to handle the skulls immediately. Clearly, you were correct.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
I don't have any saves like that, unfortunately (or fortunately for me). The sun will start yellow and progress until it is bright white. Then, IIRC, there is a message warning you that GW is imminent. A turn or two later, the message window advises that waters rise, glaciers melt, etc... a lot of land squares change for the worse, but the seas don't actually rise (turning land squares to sea doesn't happen).

Thanks for the information. Hope I never actually see that in a game.

[La Fayette]

OK it was really the endgame. Many engineers to move here and there trying to remove pollution, ... and a few SS parts to build. I saved just before pushing the button 'launch', so anyone may launch and look at our beautiful Republican SS flying to the stars.

[La Fayette]

Nice ship isn't it?
I had not launched any ship with 7 motors yet

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Nice ship isn't it?
I had not launched any ship with 7 motors yet

Yeah, very nice. Compliments!!

8 motors are nice too; gets there in 5 years (33-8-8-111). Really nice would be if you had played all your turn and got us to the edge of AC. Do you get bored easily and quit early on a regular basis??

Yeah, yeah, I know...the game is more or less finished with launch. And that's okay by me. Nice game guys.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Perhaps SG(2) can return to land the ship?

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Do you get bored easily and quit early on a regular basis??

This is a very interesting question, since it relates to the fun WE have when playing this game.
I know that many people restart or reload when they dislike the terrain or the way it goes. I NEVER do that. Bad terrain or bad luck is part of the challenge, and when playing I like to win the challenge.
But I hate 'milking' a game for higher score. I also hate micromanaging 150 cities. And finally I hate spending 50 turns looking after the last tiny city hidden in the black.
In short I never give up before having a clear win (or loss , but losing was a long time ago when playing civ2, ... of course apart from losing a MP game or being #2 or #3 in a comparison game: I don't feel ashamed when a strong player beats me; I just try to learn the lesson from him).
In this game, we are so much stronger than our foes that I would certainly dislike playing until landing, but if it was specified that we had to do it, then I would do it .

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by La Fayette

In this game, we are so much stronger than our foes that I would certainly dislike playing until landing, but if it was specified that we had to do it, then I would do it .

No need to continue, as I stipulated: "the game is more or less finished with launch." From here to the end IS a bit of a drudge. I just couldn't refrain from noting the pattern is all

It was fun and I learned a lot. Thanks to all...

[Julius Brenzaida]

Another nice succession game
With some crazy ideas
But the poor 2.42 AI is definitely no match (stop me if I've said this one before)
The newcomers have been perfectly up to the task

My only regret : we should not have build so many cities, so that the virtues of micro-managing could have been better taught
But it's amazing the number of things you can learn, think about or remember, thanks to a game like this one

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida
Another nice succession game
With some crazy ideas
But the poor 2.42 AI is definitely no match (stop me if I've said this one before)
The newcomers have been perfectly up to the task

My only regret : we should not have build so many cities, so that the virtues of micro-managing could have been better taught
But it's amazing the number of things you can learn, think about or remember, thanks to a game like this one

Hey Jules...did you have a good time on your vacation???

I only have 2.42. How is MPG different?? I know the AI is more aggressive. Is that the only difference in gameplay?? How do you adapt for the differences??

So how many cities do you consider ideal and what would you do within them??

The Monk, still asking questions....

[Julius Brenzaida]

Bloody Monk,
Yes, my holidays were fine
But now it's all for work

The AI is indeed more agressive in MGE and I think's it also expands more. It is a bit more challenging, but only a bit more, except for OCC, I believe where the tribute strategy fails. A 1 city/size1 victory look impossible with MGE although it has been doce with 2.42

I believe that 6 to 8 cities would have been the perfect number to build a small but thriving republic.
It could be the topic of the next succession game

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida
Bloody Monk,
Yes, my holidays were fine
But now it's all for work

The AI is indeed more agressive in MGE and I think's it also expands more. It is a bit more challenging, but only a bit more, except for OCC, I believe where the tribute strategy fails. A 1 city/size1 victory look impossible with MGE although it has been doce with 2.42

I believe that 6 to 8 cities would have been the perfect number to build a small but thriving republic.
It could be the topic of the next succession game

I commiserate. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get paid for playing Civ II??

If you allow yourself only 6-8 cities, how does this effect the game?? Do you build all with multiple specials??...and doesn't that mean you will be more spread out (more empty space between cities) and that by waiting to find the 'right' sites that Monarchy will be delayed?? Or is that the point, to handicap yourself and thereby, give the AI more of a chance??

Just trying to picture it in my mind. Sounds like fun, too.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


I commiserate. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get paid for playing Civ II??

If you allow yourself only 6-8 cities, how does this effect the game?? Do you build all with multiple specials??...and doesn't that mean you will be more spread out (more empty space between cities) and that by waiting to find the 'right' sites that Monarchy will be delayed?? Or is that the point, to handicap yourself and thereby, give the AI more of a chance??

Just trying to picture it in my mind. Sounds like fun, too.

For me, part of the fun is building cities. Especially if I find a really nice spot, or a 3 special mountain blocking the AI's expansion... limiting oneself to 8 would detract from some of the fun. And obviously it would have to be an AC game.

On the other hand, there's a point where one has 'enough' cities. I don't think I built any cities after my first turn in the StickyMouse game. Based on what we were doing, there was no need.

The problem with a 6-8 city limit is that most of us put down that many cities before 1500 BC! Of necessity, we want to get some cities down so we have the shields to build HG/Col/MPE whatever, as well as the arrows to be productive in science.

So... picking city spots carefully would probably cost us a bit in the early game. Unless the 6-8 cities were intended to be a SSC and a bunch of feeder cities.

[Julius Brenzaida]

Well, I like my job, but civ2 would be cool
Unless anything becomes less fun when it's a job

A 8 city republic is a good way to win a game too. You only need decent spot in the beginning, and yes your cities should all have some specials around.

Having less cities, it's easier to make them grow. All the shields you do not spend building cities or armies can be used to irrigate and generate caravans. The improvements are usually rushbuilt as they are cheap. Happiness wonder become less of an issue, too and they are some other changements too.

It's a good strategy, perhaps not as adaptable as ICS, but I like it as I love big cities and don't love to micromange a hundred cities. Games are a bit quicker too.

You really should give it a try. And if you want some training of micromanaging, then OCC is the must

[Scouse Gits]

Well done everyone!!!

We're back - or at least (2) is - I, [1], am taking a Morrowind sabatical - see you all in about a month (or two)......

There is a "Uranium" thread around that gives a strong advocation for NEVER stopping building cities...

The SGs just starting #2

[Scouse Gits]

* Bump *
-- to remind people of Straybow's Hidden Special tutorial on pages 13 & 14

SG[1] - thanks Stray