The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game - Page 3

Scouse Gits · July 23, 2002, 14:08

El Civ Buying MGE for scuccession games is dedication to duty

--------------------------

SG(2)

El Civ · July 23, 2002, 14:18

Quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette
BTW the ultimate version of civ2 is available in Toulouse for 20$. I could send a game to anyone willing to study the guidebook in French

.

Amazon had it for $17 U.S. That includes the guidebook and the original box, at least that is what the seller claims (CD is in sealed jewel case).

Quote:

El Civ Buying MGE for scuccession games is dedication to duty

--------------------------

SG(2)

If I learned French just to make the purchase from Toulouse, then I would exhibit the ultimate dedication to duty. I just wonder how my wife will react when she finds out I bought it.

Julius Brenzaida · July 23, 2002, 16:11

Quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette
BTW the ultimate version of civ2 is available in Toulouse for 20$. I could send a game to anyone willing to study the guidebook in French

.

Je pourrais être intéressé

Ca fait combien en Euros

S'agit-il bien de la version MGE+FW+CiC

La Fayette · July 23, 2002, 16:44

19.9 euros environ.
La boîte est différente de la mienne, mais je crois que le contenu est exactement le même: civ2 + CiC + FW + Multiplayer.
Je téléphonerai demain matin pour me faire confirmer l'information.

Messer Niccolò · July 23, 2002, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette
19.9 euros environ.
La boîte est différente de la mienne, mais je crois que le contenu est exactement le même: civ2 + CiC + FW + Multiplayer.
Je téléphonerai demain matin pour me faire confirmer l'information.

La Fayette, should the box contain the ; MP, Cic, FW please sign me in...

Back on topic, Mr. Niccolò will d/load asap and will (hopefully) save the kingdom...

Zedd · July 23, 2002, 18:13

Pardon the intrusion by a lowly surf who has been viewing the history of this nation......... but wouldn't it be wise to contact the babs or chinese and attempt a tech trade.......Likely they have discovered pottery in this save as they did in the Gits test and would be willing to trade if treated properly.

Humbley beging your forgiveness for the intrusion

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 23, 2002, 18:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Zedd
Pardon the intrusion by a lowly surf who has been viewing the history of this nation......... but wouldn't it be wise to contact the babs or chinese and attempt a tech trade.......Likely they have discovered pottery in this save as they did in the Gits test and would be willing to trade if treated properly.

Quite right, and I'll try to do so if we are still languishing in despocracy by my turns.

However...

1. If the Chinese are building the Gardens, they probably will rebuff all tech trade attempts. In my experience, anyway. We'll have to steal it or die in the attempt.

2. This smacks of a cheat - using the information gleaned in the Git alternate universe version of this game.

And a hearty round of boos for putting temptation in our path

STYOM (king of the black clickers)

La Fayette · July 23, 2002, 18:44

Welcome Zedd
Your idea is a good idea, but the main problem with trading techs is that, before trading, you need to find those bl... foreigners (unless you build Marco which I strongly advise

).
IIRC Julius had 5 units scouting, 2 got killed, it would probably be wise to build at least a new one. Julius tried to trade with the Chinese = no success (apart from some gold). I also tried later on = no success either.
(I grant you that SG2 was successful with the Babs, but SG2 can look very frightening when he meets a Bab, so we cannot generalize

).

Messer Niccolò · July 23, 2002, 19:37

“we mourn the loss of our precedent leader, hail to Mr. Niccolò, our wise and soon-to-be-honoured illuminated leader”
With this words the herald (16bit) appoint Mr. N. To the leadership of the wanna-be-republic land.
What do we have

?
54g, 8 cities and a healty 1/15 discovery rate.... what

!!! 1/15!!!!!
This is a dirty work... but someone has to do it!

Plans:
i)get asap Pottery, that means tickle the Camel Factory and deliver it to the glorious Sticky Mouse (that means that the public accounts will become red... but that’s life)
ii)once we can build “pots” let’s fill them of flowers and let the vases to hang down our balcony, the world will stare amazed our “Hanging Gardens”!
iii)what

only 8 cities?!?! Well La Fayette is one, the Gits are two (or three and their words are backed with wine bottles

and English food

)... since we must a) build roads or b) build cities, we, diplomatically speaking, will build some cities and, in the process, will build some roads too

...
Wait! More cities means more red faces.... Decisions have to be taken

if the people become upset they will enjoy our whip!

(or Elvii in case the whip is not available

)

575bc Sarzana founded in a beautiful place called Straybow Canal, that will be a useful harbor-town when our ironclads will rule the sea...
550bc a camel full of Silk reaches Sticky Mouse, our tax men, awaiting at the city doors, demand politely 14g to be added to the ‘royal’ treasury

500bc since a chinese troop is trying to pop a hut, our 12st horsemen company goes first in the village... the locals amazed by our four legged friends offer us another 50g

475bc our trireme reports us that the sea is not a sea but there are several seas more than 3 or 5 or 9.... sages, haven’t discovered Math yet decides just not to be wrong that a Lighthouse Projectshould be started in Sticky Mouse
450bc The 7th Charioteers makes a camp near Babylon, we are invited by Hammurabi (once again named “The Green One” for both his robes and the colour of his face at the sight of our powerful Chariots) to sign a Peace treaty.

“Rambo, what’s your answer?”shouted Colonel Trautman to one of his attendant “**ck you!” is replied by the entire company. “We came for your life, money, women, cities and our words are backed by (empty) wine bottles”... Frightened to death Hammurabi offers us 150g and ... guess what....

... Pottery... at this point we smoke peace calumet...
Mr. Niccolò starts his “Flowers from/for the World Ltd.” in Sticky Mouse and the ruling council decides that they’ll wait to see the exact number of seas before to start the lighthouse. Smelling flowers from Mr. Niccolò company, the council decides to change Lighthouse Project with Hanging Gardens.
425bc Caravans tickled and delivered to help to build HG;
400bc Caravans tickled and delivered to help to build HG
375bc Egyptians have almost completed the Hanging Gardens (

nobody told me that someone has started to build HG!). Coneheads discover LITERACY... and Mr. Niccolò suggests the idea of a new Govt form. We will call it Republic, or better THE REPUBLIC, scientist assigned to this new project. In the meantime somewhere else in the kingdom (Consul’sRetreat) a Chariot becomes veteran after having made mincemeat of some barb horsies.

end of the first part....

Messer Niccolò · July 23, 2002, 19:38

... because of the "too many smilies" error I had to split my report in two...

---------------------
Chariot becomes veteran after having made mincemeat of some barb horsies.
350bc historians will call this 25 years period “The Laughing Years”:

Sticky Mouse builds Hanging Gardens

Egyptians, mourning, take bricks from their ex-construction and start to build The Wall

Sticky Mouse celebrates! Silk delivered to Sticky Mouse, tax men smiling obtain 10g
325bc

wiping tears from eyes and thinking to the Egyptians Mr. N. Does some tickling;
300bc

wiping tears from eyes and thinking to the Egyptians Mr. N. Does some tickling;
275bc

wiping tears from eyes and thinking to the Egyptians Mr. N. Does some tickling; (after the tears have been wiped Mr. N. founds Togatown and Senator’s Beach)
250bc Dye caravan delivered to Sticky Mouse 12g are drained from the merchants; our ‘friend’ Hammurabi gifts us only 25g (better than nothing)
225bc Camels transporting Hides reach Sticky Mouse. Mr. Niccolò raises a new “Tax on Flowers and Hides” collecting 48g

$$$
200bc barbs near Consul’sRetreat, quite easily handled by our forces. Messer Niccolò crazy because of the end of his enlightened reign, decides to rushbuild a Library in Sticky Mouse. This is clearly a madness sign...(it's time to go to bed) Messer Niccolò is sent to Senator’s Beach to take a long rest....

1) + ii) + iii) = ok.... mission accomplished!

Messer Niccolò · July 23, 2002, 19:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Quite right, and I'll try to do so if we are still languishing in despocracy by my turns.

2. This smacks of a cheat - using the information gleaned in the Git alternate universe version of this game.

STYOM (king of the black clickers)

I would like to point out that I didn't take a look to the Gits save so I didn't know where the Babs were.
Trying to explain briefly my strategy: use camels to obtain advances, research Pottery, build HG.
In the meantime scouting units try to contact other civs to trade/ask techs + money (for tickling).
I've been lucky to find babs and to get 150g + Pottery, one turn later and the world would have known the "Gardens Hanging from Thebes" ... and then the mighty "We Like The Flowers Force" marching beeline for the HG Town ...

We should be in Republic in the next turns, I tried to maximize trade and science and, in the latest turns I added a couple of cities.
Note to my successor, since Republic is on sight, you can switch from camel production to some settlers just to enlarge our soon-to-be-Republic....

... and, finally, here is the save!

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 23, 2002, 20:15

On further review:

@ Messer Niccolo Flowers Inc. You rock!

@ Zedd - that rant was tongue in cheek

Blame the SGs!

Re: our slow start. I think the problem was that we didn't set our priorities straight. We wound up with some useless techs from the Greeks (and from hut popping? don't recall) which slowed our path to Pottery, Republic and Trade.

Which brings me to the last point - I don't think we had a real tech path decided (a hazard of succession games). Had I played, I was thinking - head for Republic rather than Trade, since SG(2) had already started a wonder - we could probably finish HG without caravans. And the idea would be to pick up Pottery on the way to Republic.

Of course hindsight is 20-20, and I don't recall whether there was a point where there was nothing on the Republic path and Pottery was offered. But getting Trade, if nothing else, gave us the caravans to finish HG when we did get Pottery. (Julius

)

Now the bottom line - as it stands - the happy news is we have HG and Col, my 2 fave wonders... so now, when can I play?

Bloody Monk · July 23, 2002, 20:37

STYOM

According to the roster I am next. Mine is the second of the two downloads of the sav. I was admiring our progress and studying the situation. If you still have a time problem, jump in front and I'll play after you...it is early here.

Quick Observations:
Library is fine but if we had a temple (Sticky Mouse) we could celebrate without Lux. Not saying waste shields by changing though. Beware the goto command for camels,etc. And MPE would be nice

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 23, 2002, 21:00

No, go ahead, Monk... I'm still at work

My last line was meant more to manifest my eagerness to play now that we have HG and will be in Rep shortly

than to indicate I actually CAN play now

Bloody Monk · July 23, 2002, 21:30

Bloody Monk calls the ball.

He is overheard muttering about why his Cap is not celebrating when we have expended so much effort getting Flowers and Big Bronze Guy. Others report he claims to have a "Secret Plan" to get the realm out of Despotism but are waiting to be convinced. At his Ascendency, all he said was he would do his best. And then he rushed out telling all his peeps to get to work.

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 02:56

Master Nick - outstanding work!
STYOM - exactly - it is the lack of a cogent and coherent tech path that is the curse of all Succession Games - whenever you come to bat your intended tech path is always hindered either by the presence of a host of 'rubbish techs' or the inexplicable absence of a key prerequisite - but such is life. You might say One man's Pottery is another man's Electricity!

SG(2) - Look like this one will be just ripe for our Friday session * rubs hands in anticipation *

SG[1]

Current Order:

2nd Round 12 Turns

SG(2)

SG[1]
El Civ
Julius
La Fayette
Messer Niccolò
Bloody Monk
STYOM

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 03:07

Bloody Monk retires to his Chapel to contemplate the vagaries of power. Probably will lose his lifetime pension over some decisions but the Republic is beginning to grow--to the music of the sixties band, Archie Bell and the Drells, doing the "Tighten Up". We are half way to Mono and the camels to build Mike's are making their way to the sacrificial altar, or soon will be.

Happiness is a problem for now. I wasted a lot on temples that will be needed later, but not so much now with Mike's Chapel so close. It is a painful lesson how easy it is to let the game play me rather than me play the game. Red faces caused panic for the Rookie. I would recommend camels over Settlers for now so that we can snap up WOW's and so the cities can get to three and celebrate a bit. And world trade!!

Log:
200 Changed Lux to 20% and moved workers to get food so that Sticky Mouse could celebrate. Moved workers, in other cities, off of grass and on to plains to slow food and thus, growth. First painful decision--move Toga closer to SM. Movement to the Cap will be quicker and another city can be squeezed in that delta, if desired. Demanded tribute--25g Babs, 150g Chin.
175 Celebration in SM!! Science boosted from 14 to 10 (mostly from Library). Start temple in SM (it's a Monk thing). Explorers find Indians. Give many techs, share maps, ally...science now 9 turns. Egyptian Sett at edge of map--next visit planned. With Science speeded up our geeks come up with Republic--point them at Horse on the path to Mono.
150 Rush temple in SM. Revolt...last chance to demand trib--50g from Chin. Moved miner off coal to irrigate SM tiles to facilitate continued celebrations as Rep adds pop.
125 Republic established (settings at 20-50-30 for 6-turn advances and 15g net). Sadly had to disband So. Senate's horse to keep the city from freaking out with two units afield. At this point I slipped and ordered a temple in Consul's.

Traded tech with Indians for Horse and Myst. Science back to 8.
100 Chose Phil for the Geeks to work on (wish we had Poly already)
75 Build settlers and say goodby to Toga.
50 Build Shorter Toga garrisoned by warrior sent from Lucky many turns back. Get hut Nomad near Consul's and rush Temple there.
25 Egypt builds Great Wall; Chin changes to and builds Lighthouse (vet clads will take a bit more doing now)
1a 100g from hut
20 Monkfish founded with two whales and a fish. Rehome SM Settler to Sarzana to open up more food for the growing Cap. Phil--Poly--Mono
40 Nomad from hut. Deliver 4 camels to SM for MPE.
60 MPE completed in SM, set to build Mkt PL. Share Maps with everyone gift tech to Indians to get tech down to 7 turns.
80 Seafearing from hut. Rush temple at 'Spice'
100 get out ritual bowl to wash hands of this piece of work

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 03:19

Sorry I took so long to complete my turn--not used to the logging process. Typing was what I had secretaries for in the old days. Oh, well. I leave the Republic in surer hands. It is late so now I go to bed--no wait, that's been done.

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 03:25

Sounds good BM

SG[1]

Messer Niccolò · July 24, 2002, 03:41

... yawn...
It's hard to work after the night session....
@ Bloody Monk, I built Library and not temple because we almost were Republic and for SSC purposes a library could be better (in the long run of course), otherwise I would probably have built a marketplace, but, at the end, the results are the same...

Poor Togatown, it was supposed to be the West harbor of the Republic... it doesn't matter, TogaHarbor will be settled in the next future

Good job everybody!

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 04:19

Messer Niccolò The Senate acclaim you as Despotic Director of the Universe

Great work! Sticky Mouse looks like the Chelsea Flower Show

Our recent panic to build the Gardens has been a useful learning exercise. It proves what can be achieved with a determined approach to attain a goal… Messer Niccolò has shown us the way.

I seldom go directly from Despotism to Republic. Although Republic has only one more prerequisite tech than Monarchy this difference has taken its toll in our game. The unwanted early science from villages is always a problem and tempts me to think that huts should be opened before founding the capital - for the valuable NON units (especially if aiming for Republic) - only resuming this activity after the government change. This has to be balanced against the advanced tribes/NON settlers or the rare 100 gold which is like a lottery win! It's a great game that keeps us thinking so hard for so long

Imagine the different position the Sticky Mouse Senate would be in if my horseman had found Pottery and not Masonry!

BM Now the Founding Father of the Republic

Good work building MPE with impressive usage obtaining maps and gifting tech to the Indians to aid the science rate. I hope you enjoyed your first turns in a succession game.

Just a couple of observations. You didn't need the two entertainers in Sticky Mouse. The city won't riot without them and we lose no advantage by having red faces as the city cannot celebrate until we buy an aqueduct. We can't do this at present as we don't possess Construction …but two AI Civs do know this skill. This is a key tech as it's the gateway to size 12 cities and colosseums. Engineering is also available and that is half what's needed for Sanitation. The exchange of tech is important now for two reasons. Firstly, we wish to swap before we research Monotheism…we don't want a race for Mike's. Secondly, once an AI starts wonder building with a science we need they won't talk to us as their "great minds are too busy" with the wonder.

We have a good game going!

STYOM you are next…Good Luck!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 04:27

Master Nick

The Library was a great choice. My comments were more about where I was planning to go in the future--a sort of 'fire for effect' rather than being finely targeted. Could have done with better wording, for sure.

And the Shorter(to Sticky Mouse)Toga city is also a port. Of course we will need many port cities if we are to carry off a Republic Trade operation and not run afoul of the "multiple units afield" problem. That is why I chose not to build Oracle. We will need to catch Theology (and Bach's) quickly, I think, so it will expire to soon. I was actually thinking of a second port at the end of that river system when I burned down your city. I hope it was not a horrible misstep on my part.

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 04:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

BM Now the Founding Father of the Republic

Good work building MPE with impressive usage obtaining maps and gifting tech to the Indians to aid the science rate. I hope you enjoyed your first turns in a succession game.

Just a couple of observations. You didn't need the two entertainers in Sticky Mouse. The city won't riot without them and we lose no advantage by having red faces as the city cannot celebrate until we buy an aqueduct. We can't do this at present as we don't possess Construction …but two AI Civs do know this skill. This is a key tech as it's the gateway to size 12 cities and colosseums. Engineering is also available and that is half what's needed for Sanitation. The exchange of tech is important now for two reasons. Firstly, we wish to swap before we research Monotheism…we don't want a race for Mike's. Secondly, once an AI starts wonder building with a science we need they won't talk to us as their "great minds are too busy" with the wonder.

We have a good game going!

STYOM you are next…Good Luck!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

Thanks for the observations SG(2). I completely missed that we were size eight!! I was hoping to irrigate one more square and so avoided the red faces. Need to eat something. All this thinking has depleted my blood sugar.

Excellent lesson, and well crafted, on Mono. Completely missed that too. I figured it was better to wait to trade for techs so as not to slow down getting Mono. But, again, you make an excellent point about the AI demanding your latest and best tech. I have, however, set it up so that we will have most of the camels for Mike's in place as soon as we discover Mono. So I don't think we would lose a race for the WOW--probably not, anyway. Still, why give them crooks. I conceed the point. It is disconcerting that I thought about all of the things you enumerated (except for your key point) and came up with the weaker position. Learn a lot with these games, we do, eh!!

That is partly what I was refering to earlier when I mentioned the game playing me. Curiously, I found it harder to keep the "Big Picture" in mind and too often became preoccupied with the immediate situation. Not exactly performance anxiety, but I was aware of some pressure.

Still, it was fun.

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 05:07

BM It is very easy to let the game play you. SG[1] and I both agree that we play better in succession/comparison games when we must publish a log of our progress. There is a little more pressure but hopefully the adrenalin boosts performance.

---------------------

SG(2)

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 05:09

One last observation. I think the AI in this game is going to be pretty robust. Many times the AI is inert, it is so lame. These civs are laying down cities at a good pace. And first contact (love that phrase)

was very prickly with several of them. They also seem to have a taste for the WOW's. When the Egyptians built the Great Wall, at least three other civs were also working on it. They all switched to Lighthouse and the Chins built it on the spot. The point is that SG(2)'s mention of a wonder race is well taken. Good luck, all!!!

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 05:43

More Gentle Critique

Just for fun, I pulled down the latest save and tried to 'improve' it by micromanagement.
The current state is: Taxes 2:3:5 yielding 25g + 57b (7 turns)
If you leave the tax rate unchanged you can achieve 27g + 64b (still 7 turns) + The Institute will celebrate and go to 5 two turns hence ...
Alternatively, if we move the tax rate to 2:2:6 the only problem is South Senate - this goes away if the Caravan is switched to a Temple and rushed for 33g and the result is 21g + 82b (5 turns)
Of course this all has a cost - and our total shield production has been reduced, but not much.

The real reason i pulled down the save was to see if the capture of Beijing was feasible - as you all know, after my pwetty fwowers I have a predilection for large bright lights - however, not yet seems to be the answer...

SG[1]

Messer Niccolò · July 24, 2002, 07:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
They all switched to Lighthouse and the Chins built it on the spot. The point is that SG(2)'s mention of a wonder race is well taken. Good luck, all!!!

mmmh... I love chinese food

...
I vote for sending our mighty "We Love Chinese Food Expeditionary Force" to add that wonder to our "collection"...

Messer Niccolò · July 24, 2002, 07:08

well, I meant, to add the Bejing's cooks to our Senatorial houses...

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 09:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Master Nick - outstanding work!
STYOM - exactly - it is the lack of a cogent and coherent tech path that is the curse of all Succession Games - whenever you come to bat your intended tech path is always hindered either by the presence of a host of 'rubbish techs' or the inexplicable absence of a key prerequisite - but such is life. You might say One man's Pottery is another man's Electricity!

SG(2) - Look like this one will be just ripe for our Friday session * rubs hands in anticipation *

SG[1]

In other words, I have today and Thursday to play.

That seems eminently do-able

Save downloaded...

As to the other point, agreed... I try to avoid hut tipping before Monarchy. I'll be tempted to tip one, or two, looking for a horseman. If I get a horse, great... if I get a bad tech - that's it - stop tipping until Monarchy.

(I have a lot of memories of 20-turn research brought on by undisciplined tipping)

In this game, the problem was exacerbated by the extra tech we need for early Republic, plus the tech(s) from the Greeks... off path.

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 12:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
More Gentle Critique

Just for fun, I pulled down the latest save and tried to 'improve' it by micromanagement.
The current state is: Taxes 2:3:5 yielding 25g + 57b (7 turns)
If you leave the tax rate unchanged you can achieve 27g + 64b (still 7 turns) + The Institute will celebrate and go to 5 two turns hence ...
Alternatively, if we move the tax rate to 2:2:6 the only problem is South Senate - this goes away if the Caravan is switched to a Temple and rushed for 33g and the result is 21g + 82b (5 turns)
Of course this all has a cost - and our total shield production has been reduced, but not much.

SG[1]

Well now; let's see...6 hours sleep and breakfast is about ready. The world looks pretty grand from here. That's kinda on topic because it probably explains why your last doesn't feel the least bit critical. Dang good point, rather. Everyone should take note of it, I think. As the game progresses we must be vigilant about checking on the optimal rates and elvi needed around our Republic.

But " 'splain to me sumthin, Lucy", as Ricky Ricardo used to say. I can't get The Institute to celebrate if Lux are moved to 20%. Maybe you didn't mean that both ideas would work in tandem. And Ides of M also revolts at 20%. Making an elvis there and moving workers in other cities a bit, I can achieve 5 turns...and that would, indeed, be a good thing.

Especially, with your previous suggestion to trade for missing techs, now, before we get Mono.

That will increase the beakers needed again, so this plan makes that easier. If I had thought of this, I would have done that. Good catch.