The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game - Page 4

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 12:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
More Gentle Critique

The real reason i pulled down the save was to see if the capture of Beijing was feasible - as you all know, after my pwetty fwowers I have a predilection for large bright lights - however, not yet seems to be the answer...

SG[1]

Before everybody gets all hot about taking the Lighthouse, I suggest a pause to consider. It gets to a central question that was in my dreams last night. (Please disregard the rim-shot opening

) What is our long term goal???

If we are playing to conquer, there are certain considerations. But if we are playing for the stars, some of those elements will get in the way, in my opinion. If it is to be AC, then it is trade, trade, trade. And for that we will need Magnetism, I think. Lighthouse doesn't look so "bright" then. We will want to keep our Reputation polished up so we can send our vans throughout the foreign lands to demand cities--and reduce sneak attacks on our precious camels.

And if we build STWA and delay Leo's a bit we can have our clads for a space of time. They can become vets the harder way and we can try to induce a declaration of war from our targets. We don't have enough cities to field an Invasion force with any muscle without clads. But no city can stand having two units in the field. But we need our ships for trade. Magnetism is the way...maybe

So, Bloody Monk lays before the August Senate the question: What are our goals to be??

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 12:40

It is 100 AD, and STYOM is selected by the local oligarchs as Tricky Tacky of the Cool Consuls.

History will record STYOM as the last (and, first!) of the 15 turn Consuls... so he resolves to leave his mark on the empire.

STYOM surveys the map. We have lots of space, even between our own cities. We know where our enemies... err... trading partners... are. Despite the slow start, we're well positioned as leaders on the world stage.

It's quite a good thing the Egyptians didn't get HG... I'm sure the barbarians now occupying Thebes have no appreciation for flowers

Priorities:

1) Acquire Construction, and other AI sciences.
2) Stake out territory now that we can grow - especially towards the Chinese, who seem to be the most sophisticated of the foreigners.
3) Get Mikes'... celebrate.
4) Begin to trade with the foreigners.

100: Trade swapped to Chinese for Construction. Alliance refused.
Mysticism swapped to Carthaginians for Engineering. Carthaginians demand Mathematics - soft chuckling from the Consuls - so the Carthaginians remain Worshipful, but unable to count.

We could acquire Iron Working and/or Warrior Code from the Egyptians, but given that we are still several turns from Mono (12/tech), STYOM decides to refrain from further trading.

Science rate bumped to 1.3.6 - income drops but discoveries are now 9/tech. Elvises are fired in StickyMouse.

Some caravan production is switched to Settlers, particularly in cities which have an Elvis already. We need cities - and we should easily have the Caravans to finish Mikes when the time comes.

120: Senators Beach builds Caravan>Settler. Dye in South Senate>Settler.

STYOM demands an Aqueduct in his capital, but there are no funds

Perhaps I shouldn't have messed with the tax rate, thinks STYOM.

Our Trireme sails up to barbarian-held Thebes, and we offer 80 gold to them to become civilized. Barbarians demand 260

140: Nothing of real significance. Caravans travel our roads...

160: Aqueduct purchased in StickyMouse for 58g.
French begin to build a Great Library... suckers.

(Incidentally, this is the only Wonder under construction in the world)

180: Disorder in Senator's Beach... elvis hired. Settler construction is too early to be rushed there.

Aqueduct in Sticky Mouse... starts Marketplace.

Eye on Egypt founded, far, far away. Phalanx started there.

French are now a Republic.

Taxes adjusted to 2.3.5 - we will probably need to rush Marketplace in StickyMouse, if we plan to build Mike's there.

200: J'Accuse founded>Phalanx

220: Dye in Shorter Toga>Settlers
Settlers in The Institute>Settlers.

Lots of disorder now (Sarzana, Ides of March) - probably due to STYOM building too many cities

Egyptians start Great Library. Cool, a wonder race. My money's on the French.

Peace between Egyptians and French. Chinese start a Great Library, too.

240: Monotheism discovered!

After all my big talk, I'm not sure what the next priority is! With nothing on the path to University available, it's down to Banking, or Medicine (for Sani). Medicine selected (the Chinese are working on Banking, anyway).

Marketplace rushed in Sticky Mouse.

Ahh, diplomacy! The Indians are attacked by the Egyptians! Global stock markets plunge (if there were any)! Indians come to us, asking for us to honor our alliance with them and fight the Egyptians. We demur, mindful of our new city 'Eye on Egypt', so close to the Egyptians. The Indians then offer us 300 g, and STYOM can't resist that. So it's war with Egypt!

(stock markets plunge again

)

260: Marketplace in Sticky Mouse; Mike's started.

Pax STYOMania founded>Phalanx.

Phalanx rushed in Eye on Egypt.

280: Order finally restored in Sarzana (doing so earlier would have cost us a Settlers)

The party begins in Sticky Mouse

Taxes readjusted to 1.3.6, in light of the Indian largesse... which reminds me - contact Egyptians, cease fire in exchange for Construction.

300: All quiet.

320: Final construction Caravans enter Sticky Mouse, and 80 g is spent for the final frescoes in Mikes.

340: Copper in MONKFISH>Settlers

MICHELANGELO in Sticky Mouse>Caravan
Phalanx in J'Accuse>Settlers

Egyptians recapture Thebes from barbarians.

360: Science rate tweaked to 1.2.7

380: Chinese Trireme, apparently unoccupied, sighted S of Senator's Beach.

400: Banking acquired from Chinese, for Philosophy.

Senator's Beach builds Settlers>Crusaders
Lucky Git builds Silk>Settlers
Sticky Mouse hits size 12. All Elvises fired, again.

(STYOM shouts obscenities at GOTO command

- the road between Lucky Git and Sticky Mouse is tricky, just like the consulate...)

His 300 year term complete, STYOM retires to the new city of Pax STYOMania (honouring the well timed war with the Egyptians). Pax STYOMania has everything the ex Consul desires - a beach, vineyards and steak on the hoof

. Consequently he shall not return to power for many years...

In any event the ex-Tricky Tacky feels good about having turned Sticky Mouse into a proto-metropolis, solved the happiness crisis and added 3 new cities on the edges of the empire.

Thoughts: Medicine arrives next turn. (7 turns/tech). Good city sites abound - coal/furs to the north (Settler on the way), river w/ wheat to the west. And Sticky Mouse needs some terrain improvements. Thus, many Settlers are pending.

Several AI Civs know Monarchy... none are researching Astro, yet. My successor can decide whether a trade for Monarchy (on the path to Theology) can wait until after we have Sanitation.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 12:50

Here comes the save.

I gave no serious thought to acquiring LH, given the distance, the lack of cash, and the unhappiness effects of sending an invasion force on a long journey.

So far as tweaking the tax rates... I played with them a fair bit, but my main goal was to keep the science coming, and I didn't worry so much about getting our midsize cities to celebrate. Many of our cities hit size 5 by the end of my turns, anyway.

And I didn't trade at all... due to the need for Mike-directed Caravans. Many Settlers will be ready soon, though

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 16:21

STYOM

Good job getting us to this key junction in such good order.

I echo your thought about where to from here and would learn much from a broad-based discussion of our options. This is new ground for me, playing Republic only, and maybe also for others. I'm not suggesting anyone should be bound by the debate outcome; just that it would be useful to have a vision of the possiblilities before us. From here on, it seems to me that the "blunder about" potential is growing.

Sorry you missed my reference to the danger of trusting the goto command for camels. But, looking on the bright side, at least two of us now know that work needs to be done on the roadway to the Southern Cluster if we want to get the road bonus in trade routes. This is Bloody Monk suggesting we make lemonade from this lemon.

Of course, that presupposes that those that follow on will have read this...

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 17:29

@Monk

I did read it. So it's my fault.

Not paying enough attention. I was expecting GoTo problems with long camel journeys, not a 6-tile move north and south.

Next time I look at the save, I'm going to check to see if Sticky Mouse was founded on the Civ Prime Meridian (boundary between square 0 and square 100, horizontally). That often causes GoTo probs...

Back to real strategy... rather than my blunders

Normally when I get to this point, I try to beeline to Invention, get Leo's and upgrade all my settlers eventually. That'll kill the 'clads strategy, but it will also help our happiness in future as our triremes go caravel-(galleon)-transport. No unhappiness.

Given that we aren't aiming for democracy, SoL, fundy etc, I suggest a tech path to sewers followed by invention. Build more cities, road (and rail) them together, build 1 ground unit per inland city, one sea unit per coastal city (more if we get Shakes - which I really like in Demo, but not so much in Rep?), and then we can go to war. Alternatively, build more cities, pump caravans into Sticky Mouse (or over to China?) and go to the stars.

Re: Shakes - I like building it in high production coastal cities for ship support without unhappiness. I also like building it in the SSC to ease celebrations. Given that our SSC isn't on the coast, I'm undecided.

I seldom go on the warpath early in the game on a map this size, so my opinions are definitely influenced by my usual strategy: get really powerful, and crush everyone once tactics/machine tools/espionage are available...

STYOM

Scouse Gits · July 24, 2002, 17:29

Hail STYOM builder of our wonderful Chapel and Sticky Mouse expander.

Just a point about producing settlers in republic…try not to build them in cities which are nearly 3 or have recently become three. The best way is to build them is in a larger city, (or a very small city) then the bigger cities can celebrate for a couple of turns to make up for the population loss. If the settler is need for a particular urgent task then go ahead!

Like my predecessors I am wondering about our goals. I feel I'm at a large railway junction with several trains leaving for interesting destinations in 10 minutes but I don't know which ticket to buy.

Thinking!

-------------------------

SG(2)

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 18:09

SG(2)

If you don't want to bat it about a bit before you have your go, I'm sure you will have a well thought out plan and that you'll tell us about it in your log. Right??

I'm pretty sure that a good case can be made for several of the trains you are considering. All I want is to be exposed to a lot of new, different ideas so I can learn something. My thinking is well expressed by STYOM, with, perhaps, a stronger lean toward the stars.

La Fayette · July 24, 2002, 18:22

Up to now the general idea in succession games has been that anyone plays as he likes and the successor does his best with what he gets.
But we are perfectly free to change that (especially since we are now a Republic and are willing to run it longer than the English Republic

).
IMO it would be fun to build a few ironclads (IMO it's ALWAYS fun to build a few ironclads

).

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2002, 18:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Next time I look at the save, I'm going to check to see if Sticky Mouse was founded on the Civ Prime Meridian (boundary between square 0 and square 100, horizontally). That often causes GoTo probs...

Back to real strategy...

Re: Shakes - I like building it in high production coastal cities for ship support without unhappiness. I also like building it in the SSC to ease celebrations. Given that our SSC isn't on the coast, I'm undecided.
STYOM

STYOM

Thanks for your strategy outline (which I have editted for purposes of comment) which it turns out is pretty much what I had in mind.

The dateline is about 20 clicks east of Sticky Mouse. I think the problem is that our road, while convenient for us, is off line and the Program doesn't 'see' it. We have to road some trees I think.

The Institute will be able to support 5-6 clads eventually, and still have shields for it's own needs. We'll need a canal city on the grass above Sticky Mouse, and a lot of irrigation. It is a strech but Shake's would work there, or somewhere like that.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 18:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Just a point about producing settlers in republic…try not to build them in cities which are nearly 3 or have recently become three. The best way is to build them is in a larger city, (or a very small city) then the bigger cities can celebrate for a couple of turns to make up for the population loss. If the settler is need for a particular urgent task then go ahead!

SG(2)

Agreed...! I especially like building settlers in cities that have celebrated as high as they can (under default settings) and then as the settler is built, the city immediately is restored to its former size without needing to adjust lux - in this game size 5 seems to be the normal stop point for celebrations

In the instant case, I felt we needed settlers - there were only 4 on the map, and even now, there is much terrain in need of improvement around SM - and at the time there was no easy way to celebrate. Plus, I was also thinking of turning elvii into settlers - size 4 at the time meant hap-con-un-un, which becomes hap-con-un-elvis, and after a settler, hap-con-un. Better to build settlers than hire to entertainers who eat up all our peanut butter and bananas.

And I did found 3 new cities in my turns. I had to replace those settlers

[sleaze] I fully expect to see at least 15 more cities flying our flag after you and SG[1] have played... not counting ones that used to belong to other nations [/sleaze]

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 24, 2002, 20:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Thinking!

SG(2)

Oh, that's what I do wrong...

Seriously, I imagine those strategy discussions are quite interesting... advice provided is usually spot on, but bear in mind, during those Friday sessions you each have the other to bounce ideas off of, mention overlooked consequences to intended actions, or to play devils advocate. The rest of us just have to muddle along, on our own.

Of course, after 2 bottles the advantage must be negated somewhat...

El Civ · July 24, 2002, 23:11

Should the majority of publicans...er, I'm sorry

...Republicans wish to go one way or the other I shall follow suit as best I can. However, I also vote in favor of at least a modicum of assault and battery. Given the choice between eggheads with bigger brains than the others or soldiers with greater strength than the others I will choose soldiers. To me at least there is something more satisfying in conquering than in winning a science war. Must be my testosterone level flaring up. At age 36 I suspect I'd better enjoy those hormone infusions when they occur.

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 04:18

Just a fairly unconsidered observation - assuming we were to leave the three toed sloth virtually alone on this large map -- do we feel that our advantages of humanity will outweigh their advantages of Democracy -- and Fundy for the ones that decide to upset us by constantly attacking and diverting us from our intended path.

I suspect that it might well be possible, but a hell of a lot harder than my natural inclination of knocking them all back to the Stone Age and then contemplating our options

SG[1]

Messer Niccolò · July 25, 2002, 04:34

MAy our Reublic be healty , prosperous, whealty and all the other things in the centuries.
Now, if I can express my thoughts (which is proper of republican system

) I would suggest a space race... In all the succession games we won by conquest (except the Priest->Stars which is MGE

).

I vote for the Stars... but build some clads too

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 05:17

Peaceful Expansion, Trade and a Chinese Ferry Route

420 - Medicine It's a hard choice for the next tech...in the end I chose Astronomy...the Observatory is an easy one to miss! Whether we choose war or peace quicker research will be required.
Trireme built in Ides of March to open up our eastern coastline...I want to see a few more whales...and Ides has one

440 - Hide Coal founded;

460 - Sticky Mouse builds Bank
Silk > Sticky Mouse 36g; Hut 50g; Trireme reveals that Pax Styom is a four city special with fish in the harbour.

480 - Hides > Sticky Mouse 96g

500 - Beak Farm founded for Consuls who need gentle retraining...run by the strange Dr. Ruddy Duck...

Salt > Sticky Mouse 38g.
Celebrations in place for next turn ; Population = 2m.

520 - Mouseport founded; Population 2.6m.

540 - Population 3m; Copper > Sticky Mouse 74g
China Ferry founded to ease transport going west.

560 - Population 3.8m;

580 - Population 4.2m; Beads x 3 > Sticky Mouse 78g;34g;44g; Hut - 25g;
End celebrations.

600 - Astronomy; now working on Sanitation; Courthouse built in Spicealitum (This could well be our second city); Salt > Sticky Mouse 54g; Copper > Sticky Mouse 92g.

620 - Hides from Spicealitum > Sticky Mouse 208g.

Coal to Hangchow 140g; Hut - Barbs

640 - Sanitation; now working on University;
Bridge Building stolen from our Egyptian friends

- now we can road the rivers around Sticky Mouse - MarketPlace built in Spicealitum.

Current Tax Rate = Tax 20% - Science 60% - Lux 20% - Discoveries every 5 turns, making 74 gold per turn less 18 in overheads. 328 gold in the treasury. Population = 4.2m.

There are 4 food caravans in Sticky Mouse awaiting orders for the next wonder. No tech gifting was made to the Indians as we have sciences with wonder attachments.

------------------------------

SG(2)

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 05:28

Will get on it asap - however a few work commitments must come first ...
Probably later today ...

SG[1]

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 07:17

OK - I'm on it ...

SG[1]

Messer Niccolò · July 25, 2002, 07:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Will get on it asap - however a few work commitments must come first ...
Probably later today ...

SG[1]

...

damned work that distracts us from the really important matters!
What about Adam Smith as next target wonder?
If anybody builds Magellan (we hope for Chinese

) ) we will "purchase" it later

...
What about the Barb city of Thebes?

Has anybody conquered it yet?

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 11:04

Republican Sleaze:

640 = Ein recruited in Sticky Mouse; Sewer started; other small changes swap 4g for 8b
660 = Celebration in Sticky Mouse; rush Sewer; tickle caravans;
680 = Sewer in Sticky Mouse; hut - Nomads; hut - Far Village; update maps;
700 = Chinese now have Medicine and are in a three way race for the GL - Shake's just became more urgent (Carts are researching Astronomy); Beads, Caesar's Palace, 60g; Sticky Mouse first city to achieve one million inhabitants (14); Wool, Sarzana, 86g; Beads, South Senate, 60g;
720 = University -> Navigation (a hard one - worthy of debate);
740 = Sell Temple in Sticky Mouse;
760 = MarketPlace in Lucky Git; Shakespeare's Theatre; Celebration in Sticky Mouse (not much food however); Silk, Shorter Toga, 114g; hut - Erehwon;
780 = MarketPlace in The Institute; Sticky Mouse now @15;
800 = Navigation -> Economics; Hides, J'Accuse, 108g; China Road founded;
820 = Temple in Senate Chapel (appropriate I felt); Silk, Senate Chapel, 26g; Silk, Sarzana, 43g;
840 = a bit of tickling;
860 = Economics -> Physics (another hard one); Sticky Mouse @16; hut - Not Another!;
880 = Scouting Crook spots multiple diplo advance from Egyptians; Temple in Monkfish; Dye, Spiceallatum, 58g; Caravans are sacrificed for Cope's more are coming ...

Started at 74g with 18g expenses and 180 beakers a turn (every 5 turns)
Finished @ 87g with 23g expenses and 236 beakers a turn (every 5 turns)

SG[1]

Magellan's and Adam Smith's are now available with caravans coming.
The Egyptians have recaptured Thebes.

Bloody Monk · July 25, 2002, 13:05

Multiple congratulations and a round for the house in your names!!! Our Republic is progressing nicely.

Any pointers on whither to now??

--Is there a limit to city size under Republic and does Shake's handle that??
--Do we need a granary in Sticky Mouse??
--If we are to be rabid warmakers, do we need to build STWA; which means trading (Indians?) for Monarchy, War Code??

El Civ · July 25, 2002, 13:53

I have the download and shall attempt to play my turn later today.

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 15:38

BM - thanks, but I did little (2) left me an easy game to follow ...
City size: We won't get Sticky Mouse much over 20 with the rotten terrain it has at the moment - but Republic per se offers no constraints
Granaries - wouldn't object to capturing the Pyramids

, but the established cities do not need a granary they will grow by WLTTD - the only cities to gain from granaries are the new ones to aid their growth to three -- I don't see food caravans being used much in this game
STWA would be lovely, but Monarchy and Warrior Code are complete no-nos - rather let someone else discover Feudalism then steal it or trade for it.

General concept - time to continue slowly building our infrastructure of Market Places, a few Temples, we need a Stock Market and University in Sticky Mouse - but they are expensive ... once we have six or so cities ready to go we invest in the necessary Aqueducts and pump up the luxuries for 5 rounds and get those cities upto 12 - a few others will surely benefit as might Sticky Mouse. ... then another period of consolidation and infra structure development etc etc

SG[1]

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 15:41

Oh - I don't think I mentioned - I did not change the Tax Rate at all during my turns - 2:2:6 throughout

SG[1]

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
[sleaze] I fully expect to see at least 15 more cities flying our flag after you and SG[1] have played... not counting ones that used to belong to other nations [/sleaze]

Sorry STYOM - only four each and no conquests - must try harder!

SG[1]

Bloody Monk · July 25, 2002, 16:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
BM - thanks, but I did little (2) left me an easy game to follow ...

STWA would be lovely, but Monarchy and Warrior Code are complete no-nos - rather let someone else discover Feudalism then steal it or trade for it.

General concept - time to continue slowly building our infrastructure of Market Places, a few Temples, we need a Stock Market and University in Sticky Mouse - but they are expensive ... once we have six or so cities ready to go we invest in the necessary Aqueducts and pump up the luxuries for 5 rounds and get those cities upto 12 - a few others will surely benefit as might Sticky Mouse. ... then another period of consolidation and infra structure development etc etc

SG[1]

snipped a bit

You are welcome, Sir. You guys are very good about complimenting us and I felt someone should step in and return the favor. And the wording was "your names", (2) definitely included.

When you say "M and WC are complete no-nos", does that imply we won't need Bach's?? I have a noted lack of imagination, but I thought that WOW would help us. I conceed it will make the warrior (1st row tickler) obselete, but is there something else??

Thanks for the General concept overview...sounds pretty peaceful for a while.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 25, 2002, 16:53

@Monk

We don't need Bachs... it's nice to have it, but it's more of a need in Demo, with the added unhappiness from units away from home. I think what SG[1] meant was that we will not research Mon/WC, but we'll wait for someone else to get Feudalism, then trade for that and research Theology.

(I think!)

STYOM

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 17:55

[1] I would have picked Navigation...even though it's a trade killer! Followed by Physics. We need Magnetism (no bright light shining upon our flowers) because with galleons there is no unhappiness caused by ships out of port. The only red face then can be down to the occasional Ironclad! The trade loss will be compensated by the ability to supply caravans to civs on different continents. This game is coming together!

Now that Copernicus is ready nothing stands in our way to the stars

p.s. to players that follow...you probably know that Invention is also a science which decreases trade bonuses...but if you already have Navigation the benefit from trade is not further reduced. (This works the other way round - if you get Invention first then Navigation)

Good Luck El Civ

-------------------------

SG(2)

Bloody Monk · July 25, 2002, 17:57

STYOM

Thanks, and actually my preference is to focus on trade; but there are war drums in the air and I'm just trying to figure out how I can wage war--if I have too. The Indians are on Feudalism as we speak. Bet they don't trade until after they build STWA, though.

I think there are three points cautioning against warpath-now
1) Republic favors trade, let's play the cards we dealt ourselves
2) We have zero troops above the number of our cities and 4-5 boats to move them and no barracks (this screams STWA to me)
3) If we stick to the path SG[1] outlined, we will achieve the critical mass to do it all

This is offered in the spirit of testing my thinking against the wisdom here. Wish I knew what I was talking about...but, that's why I ask so dang many questions.

Scouse Gits · July 25, 2002, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Seriously, I imagine those strategy discussions are quite interesting... advice provided is usually spot on, but bear in mind, during those Friday sessions you each have the other to bounce ideas off of, mention overlooked consequences to intended actions, or to play devils advocate. The rest of us just have to muddle along, on our own.

Of course, after 2 bottles the advantage must be negated somewhat...

So much to catch up on when I do some work

Yes STYOM you are right! The ability to talk things through with a fellow player is of great value...especially when the wine wins...as it always does

It's like the guys who play Multiplayer - they are always discussing what's happened in their games. However, I hope these succession games have given us all a chance to bounce ideas around.

----------------

SG(2)

Six Thousand Year Old Man · July 25, 2002, 18:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

[1] I would have picked Navigation...even though it's a trade killer! Followed by Physics. We need Magnetism (no bright light shining upon our flowers) because with galleons there is no unhappiness caused by ships out of port. The only red face then can be down to the occasional Ironclad! The trade loss will be compensated by the ability to supply caravans to civs on different continents. This game is coming together!

Now that Copernicus is ready nothing stands in our way to the stars

p.s. to players that follow...you probably know that Invention is also a science which decreases trade bonuses...but if you already have Navigation the benefit from trade is not further reduced. (This works the other way round - if you get Invention first then Navigation)

SG(2)

I knew about invention/navigation and trade bonuses.

Now that we have Nav, I see no reason not to head for Inv and Leo's, my usual strategy at this point. Turns all our defenders into better defenders eventually - more important, it will eventually create engineers

and turn our unhappy triremes into galleons

It also kills the vet clad strategy, but since we don't have LH, aren't looking at STWA, and may not get Magellan... I would think destroyers would be just as good!

Having said all that, getting Leos, Magellan and Adam Smith should mean a big win even without Copes (and Isaac) - with those two as well, we can win with style

@ Monk - we may want to go on the warpath using dips (and spies later) - once a republic gets rolling it's very easy to sustain war - you buy all your troops in the field after buying a city, and then lacking boats isn't as much of an issue. I suspect we'll wind up with quite a few ships soon enough, when the happiness issue is resolved by Magnetism/Leo.