The Sticky Mouse Senate - Succession Game

[Scouse Gits]

Leonardo's Workshop is always useful...especially for engineers/freights/transports. Given the geography of this game I can see a time when Magellan will be very useful for shipping freight from our homeland across the world...but then that's just an admiral's view

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SG(2)

[El Civ]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


I knew about invention/navigation and trade bonuses. Now that we have Nav, I see no reason not to head for Inv and Leo's, my usual strategy at this point. Turns all our defenders into better defenders eventually - more important, it will eventually create engineers and turn our unhappy triremes into galleons

Having said all that, getting Leos, Magellan and Adam Smith should mean a big win even without Copes (and Isaac) - with those two as well, we can win with style.

Well, I passed over Invention in favor of Theory of Gravity. I did it in order to get Newton's and make Sticky Mouse fantastic in science, what with the stars overhead awaiting us. Were it not for Newton's I would have begun a university in SM. I have a tendency to focus too much on one thing (science in this case) and ignore others. Magellan's is still available, should the next in line wish to go after it.

[Bloody Monk]

SG(2)

Aye, aye, Admiral, Sir!!

[El Civ]

Civus Minimus is notified that it is his turn to lead the Senate. His first order of business is to ask his wife if it is allowed. Permission granted. His second order of business is to order the nation’s musicians to cease all music, save “Ode to Joy”, until something wonderful can be played upon their instruments. Civus shouts, “Give me pianos! Give me horns! Give me a walking bass! I want jazz music!”

900 Egyptians launch a sneak attack upon our crusader outside Eye on Egypt. Our eye was not enough upon them to see this coming. Our crusader becomes a martyr and the Egyptian dip is two squares away and unable to be stopped. Sticky Mouse builds Copes and tired scientists are ordered to begin work on Adam Smith’s straight away.
Hides>Sticky 56g (must have been a discount merchant).

920 Egyptian dip steals Sanitation (Chinese get it from GL).
Silk>Sticky 162g

940 French develop Engineering. Now they can write hard to read technical manuals! French and Chinese set out on the crusade of an English king, but the Carth’s have almost completed it. We discover Physics and begin researching Theory of Gravity.
Silk>Sticky 147g,

960 Carth’s build King Richard’s.
Silk> Sticky 8g (whoops). Revenge! The Egyptian horse is slain by our Crusader (changed from caravan after the attack—back to caravan). Lager founded east of Erehwon. One day it will grow to see whales! I decide to go diplomatic. The French try to extort 650g from us. Hah! All any of them have to offer are crap techs and I am not offered the change to demand tribute from any of them. Is it my breath?

980

1000 We trade with the Chinese, because they ask nice, and get Monarchy. We also discover Theory of Gravity. I choose Feudalism. Crusader slays elephant outside Eye on Egypt, but still not a vet.

1020

1040 Unrest in Sarzana. A lounge singer is tapped to soothe the grumpy. Adam Smith’s built in Sticky Mouse. Apples begin falling on Newton’s head.

1060 Egyptians (and Chinese via GL) develop Mono. A boat with a dip from Erehwon is on its way to Egypt as we speak.

1080 Barbs land at Mouseport and an Egyptian horse kills our phalanx at Eye. We also discover Feudalism and we next begin researching Chemistry. Newton’s will wipe out our bank account to rush it now so I begin Sun Tzu’s in Lucky Git just in case (next best choice after Sticky Mouse). Crusader at Eye kills vile Egyptian horse and is finally made a vet. We trade Sanitation for Iron Working (bah!) with the Indians and once again I am not offered the choice to demand tribute from anyone (the Egyptians won’t even speak to us).

1100 More barbs land at Mouseport and seize it! Game notified me, “Barbarians launch sneak attack”. No kidding! And to think I trusted them. Shorter Toga production changed to crusader to win it back.

1120 Barb kills innocent caravan that cannot escape by Mousegate.
Dye>Senator’s Beach 30g.
Avenging crusader from Shorter Toga has reached Sticky Mouse, but Mousegate is only size 1.

Notes: I am afraid I stunk up the place with this turn and set us back—we lost Mousegate to barbarians on my watch! My humblest apologies. There is a settler south of Monkfish on a decent spot to build, but I didn’t want to disrupt our karma with another city after seeing some unrest. Speaking of Monkfish, I stupidly built a food caravan from there as I forgot its location on the map. The caravan by Hangchow is meant for Tatung. Population is 5,210,000, discoveries come every 5 turns, income is 88g minus 7g for expenses (thank you Adam Smith), we have 937 gold (had to rush a couple things or we’d be over 1000). Newton’s is just over half done and chemistry is about ¾ researched. I did improve 2 or 3 spots where roads were lacking near cities, after the goto incident earlier. Civus Minimus slinks from the Senate to the arms of his wife, claiming feelings of emasculation and begging to be made to feel like a man again.

[Bloody Monk]

It's not your breath, El Civ, it's a Republic...demanding is thought unseemly and not allowed (same for Demo)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

@ El Civ

I haven't seen the map since I played, but losing Mousegate may not be that bad - it can be a cheap source of NON units now, especially since we have lots of cash

This assumes we have dips in the area and Mousegate isn't situated in a troublesome place - like right on a thoroughfare.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
@ El Civ

I haven't seen the map since I played, but losing Mousegate may not be that bad - it can be a cheap source of NON units now, especially since we have lots of cash

This assumes we have dips in the area and Mousegate isn't situated in a troublesome place - like right on a thoroughfare.

And furthermore, if we had got invention>gunpowder and built Leos this wouldn't have happened

[Straybow]

[kibitz]
I thought it took both Nav and Inv to kill the 2x trade bonus before turn 200, not either Nav or Inv. Did I miss something?
[/kibitz]

[Bloody Monk]

El Civ--Can you tear yourself away from the wifey long enough to send the save file??

We CAN be gentle and tenderhearted, too.

[Scouse Gits]

Current Order:

2nd Round 12 Turns

SG(2) Played
SG[1] Played
El Civ Played
Julius
La Fayette
Messer Niccolò
Bloody Monk
STYOM

El CivWe have all suffered a sudden barb attack and lost a city. To recapture a city use a diplomat not military force which will only reduce the population further! Because the place was originally ours the bribe price is halved.

You will be sent to Beak Farm if you don't post the save file

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SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Commiserations El Civ, not a happy set of turns - but anyone can have problems with Barbs that's why we play Raging - it makes the game that much more interesting - and infuriating ...

Just a few pointers if I may ...

Cash and Wonders: why have we got all this cash? I found that over half my income was spent each turn tickling the caravans - and I used the rest to selectively rush the infrastructure we so desperately need. You are building Wonders! Once Trade has been discovered this is never cost effective a Wonder costs 4g per shield a Camel ~2g per shield so by accelerating the production of (food) Camels you accelerate the production of your desired Wonders. This remains true until such time as it is no longer cost effective to produce Freights ie cities with production >30 - we are not there yet.

Food: this is a general BeanCounter point more an addendum to my turns than a comment upon anyone else's - The three-toed sloth insists upon maximising its food production (even in our cities) - this is not good. Once a city reaches it's natural size (probably eight in our game, but some of the outlying cities will meet unhappiness problems at 6 or 7) it is frequently beneficial to reduce food production in order to gain more trade arrows (typically putting workers out to sea) or to hire specialists (Eins or Meanies) to the same effect (there is nothing more frustrating to a BeanCounter to see the message "City x needs a y for further growth!" this means that a valuable commodity (a full food box) has just been squandered - I would rather put the city in hunger by using specialists than allow this to happen) - which leads me on to ...

Happiness: you may have noticed that when a city threatens to go pear shaped (two reds against a single Cambridge man) making an Elvis will oftimes make both reds disapear - but have you tried now making the Elvis anto an Ein? More often than not the result is One Cantabrian, one red & one Ein - for a considerable boost to the cities productivity.

As ever, all the above in a spirit of sharing and construction - no flames intended

SG[1]

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Granaries - wouldn't object to capturing the Pyramids , but the established cities do not need a granary they will grow by WLTTD - the only cities to gain from granaries are the new ones to aid their growth to three -- I don't see food caravans being used much in this game
SG[1]

...unless we decide to make use of a 'Starving Silicon City' (this is the title of the thread where I explain how it works; I have just given it a bump, so you can find it on top of the strategy forum).

[El Civ]

Sorry.

[El Civ]

I feel not flamed SG[1]
The technical aspect of this game is what troubles me. Knowing that wonders are twice the gold per shield as a caravan, for example, are where I fall back from the rest of the pack. I know that the Apolyton GL is a fine source for info, but didn't there used to be a large guide about the entire game that someone here created, perhaps Xin? I had printed such a guide once but Lord only knows what became of it. It appears I need to study such a guide and play a practice game or two in order to be better armed for these succession games.

Also, what about my tech choices of Theory of Gravity and Chemistry (IIRC, Invention was not offered as a choice when I took Chemistry)? ToG was to get Newton's and double the science of Sticky Mouse. Chemistry as it is needed for explosives (engineers) and advances us toward plastics. Were those sensible or not?

[La Fayette]

I mentioned 'Starving Silicon' because the terrain around Sticky Mouse is quite rough. It might help us grow the city much more easily to 'real big size'.

[Messer Niccolò]

As ever, all the above in a spirit of sharing and construction - no flames intended

SG[1] [/QUOTE]

I didn't have any chance to take a look to the save, I add some comments...

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Cash and Wonders: why have we got all this cash? I found that over half my income was spent each turn tickling the caravans - and I used the rest to selectively rush the infrastructure we so desperately need. You are building Wonders!

Right. But, if I may add, some spare coins are always useful: bribing barbs, bribing barb cities...
Of course a treasury of 5,000 should be used asap...

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Happiness: you may have noticed that when a city threatens to go pear shaped (two reds against a single Cambridge man) making an Elvis will oftimes make both reds disapear - but have you tried now making the Elvis anto an Ein? More often than not the result is One Cantabrian, one red & one Ein - for a considerable boost to the cities productivity.

Agreed

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Once Trade has been discovered this is never cost effective a Wonder costs 4g per shield a Camel ~2g per shield so by accelerating the production of (food) Camels you accelerate the production of your desired Wonders. This remains true until such time as it is no longer cost effective to produce Freights ie cities with production >30 - we are not there yet.

I know that we aren't in the strategy forum but, just for clarity, what if I can deliver a 300g camel?
I should:
i) cover the cost of camel (100g)
ii) cover the Wonder Cost (200g)
iii) add beakers...

Am I missing anything?

[Scouse Gits]

El Civ - I would probably have taken Invention followed by Steam Engine - but this is an extremely debatable part of the game and there are powerful arguments for just about any selection - I certainly do not crime the ones you took.
La Fayette - I only remember the basics of your SSC theory - please remind me how this aids growth of the city (OK already - I should go read the thread - but I'm lazy!)
Messer Niccolò - your third point is not in conflict with mine -- the thing you do NOT do is commit a city's production to a WoW rather than to a Camel/Lorry the latter can (if you wish and if funds permit) be tickled or otherwise accelerated and then used as seems best at the moment either as 50 shields in a WoW or to hop on a ship chain to distant lands and bring in tons of filthy lucre to tickle further 'Vans

Have I clarified the outstanding points?

SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

Economics 101
Assuming that a city has a production of 5 shields per turn
The cost of a caravan is:

* 10 turns - natural build
* 6 turns + 44 g - 'tickling'
* 3 turns + 86 g - economic incremental rushing
* 2 turns + 111 g - incremental rushing
* 1 turn + 150 g - heroic incremental rushing

The value of a caravan when added to a WoW is 50 Wonder shields = 200g

Moral: it is never cost effective to buy a WoW - always buy a caravan instead.


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Notes on the above:
natural build - 10 x 5 shields = 50 = caravan
tickling - 4 x (5 shield + 11g) + 2 x 5 shield = 50
eir - 5 shield + 11g + 3 x 25g + 2 x 5 shield = 50
ir - 5 shield + 11g + 4 x 25g = 50
hir - 50g + 4 x 25g = 50

and this might go some way to explaining why I hate Feudalism and GunPowder - they take away my Warrior.
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Appendix A

Warrior = 10 shield
Phalanx / Pike / Horseman / Fanatic = 20 shield
Archer / Diplomat / Musk = 30 shield
Settler / Trireme / Caravel / Legion = 40 shield

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It seems that not everyone has seen this yet - so I thought I would repost it ...

SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

... and a final small point ...
Despite what the Civilopaedia has to say:
Cope's doubles the science output &
Ike's adds 50%

SG[1]

[Messer Niccolò]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
at the moment either as 50 shields in a WoW or to hop on a ship chain to distant lands and bring in tons of filthy lucre to tickle further 'Vans

Have I clarified the outstanding points?

SG[1]

we are both saying the same thing: build the Wow OR go for a big trade!

[Scouse Gits]

Probably your || is an && ... We are building a WoW that is given - how an individual caravan will contribute to that WoW is decided each and every time one is created -- and this includes the caravans built at the city that is WoW designate since it does NOT have its production tied up with a dedicated Wonder

SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

Julius Your turn next. Go get em and Good Luck!

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SG(2)

[Julius Brenzaida]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Julius Your turn next. Go get em and Good Luck!
SG(2)

Game (at last) downloaded and I will try to play either saturday or sunday at the latest.
I have a few comments on strategy to make, but have much less time and much less talent to post than you

[El Civ]

I've a few questions for the Senate. I understand that losing your warrior costs shields when it is upgraded. However, as the warrior in later times serves no purpose in defense, and you must build at least one other unit for that purpose, isn't having the warrior around when you could be rid of him still costing you shields? Or are cities less likely to revolt with 3 defenders (one a warrior) instead of 2 defenders (say, two pikemen)?

I also see your point about not rush buying the wonder but building it with camels, even if they are rush-bought. However, as camels intended solely for wonder building are food caravans, if one is not used how does it help to send it away in trade, since you won't get gold for it?

I am also aware that tech choices are open to opinion and debate. I did not know the civlopedia was wrong where Newton's is concerned and believed it to be a full doubling of science. Brian Reynolds, you owe Sticky Mouse 50% in science

I suppose I've not played enough to know the fine details of this game. I will apply myself, but should any and all wish to give pointers (especially prior to my turns) I would be grateful. The Senate will have to tarry along with a weak member...unless I am impeached

[Scouse Gits]

1. There is no martial law in Republic - so any and all units simply pay their support.
2. Any caravan can be used to build a WoW -- if you KNOW that a particular 'van will be used for WoW building - make it a food caravan so that the supply is not compromised -- but if you are unsure - make it a commodity 'van and use it either for the trade or for the WoW.
3. You are forgiven for not realising that the civilopaedia is a crock of sh!t!

Your sentence at the Beak Farm Corrective Intstitute will be reduced on acceptance of your true and righteous penetance.

The SGs three bottles down...

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

The SGs three bottles down...

Having read the rest of your post, the preceding line is entirely superfluous

@ El Civ - ultimately we will need to upgrade our warriors via Leo's/Gunpowder. Of course not being able to rushbuild as effectively will hurt - but then we would not have to worry about losing cities to Egyptians or barbarians if we have Musketeers defending them.

I always prefer the quick route to Leos and Gunpowder because I like not having to really worry about my cities being sacked... but then I seldom incrementally rushbuild. As has been pointed out in other threads, I'm too lazy to do it enough to reap the benefits.

But that's me. As some Git or other has said, there's a lot of options at this stage of the game, and most are worth considering.

[Scouse Gits]

@ STYOM



The SGs - sloshed

[Bloody Monk]

El Civ

These Succession Games are for me a great opportunity to have fun and to learn a thing or two along the way. You seem a tad depressed. There will be no impeachments. You will be expected to take your next turn (and send the save in a timely manner), however. Ask questions; I certainly do. Notice the last post from the Scousers: they have the gift of perfect pitch...which is to say, it's just a game, dude. Let's have fun!!

@SG's
delightful!!

The Monk announces that there wii be no communion this weekend as someone has liberated all our wine.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
..which is to say, it's just a game, dude. Let's have fun!!

I second that. There's so many decisions to be made... all of us can be second guessed. In my case, in the (long forgotten it seems ) 'Das Kapital' succession game, I allocated my workers at the start of the game badly. La Fayette called me on it, and pointed me at the GL entry - and I learned something. And guess what... my own SP games have benefited. So it's a win-win, and everyone benefits... if there were no setbacks or difficult decisions, none of us would have any fun - fun being learning or kibitzing.

[El Civ]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
El Civ

These Succession Games are for me a great opportunity to have fun and to learn a thing or two along the way. You seem a tad depressed.

I am not depressed Monk. I am a bit frustrated with myself for being below the curve here but am trying to learn quickly so I can keep up. Lord knows I'll need it when the game reaches the modern era

I wanted to play succession games so I could learn more about this game. Of course, that creates the obvious problem of me delaying the progress of the game as I learn what I am doing.