The Machiavelli Institute

Robber Baron · July 21, 2002, 22:24

Fellow Apolytonians,

Given our start position, given the breadth of Abananaba, given the fact that formidable rivals surround us, many of them more favorably situated than we are, it has become clear that we will not be able to simply conquer or build our way to victory. We will have to bargain at the table, intrigue within the courts of our enemies and allies, pit our rivals against each other. Our very survival will hinge on our ability to play a dangerous game of diplomacy with supreme skill and imagination.

We need the best minds of our civilization working on this aspect of the game. Military tactics and strategies remain essential to expansion. We must maintain scientific progress. But we need to be weighing foreign policy moves with as much wisdom, as much pooled experience, as much audacity, as we do projects like tech-whoring or oscillating war. We need to be strong, but we also need to be shrewd.

Whom should we be cultivating as allies, and whom should we be isolating as enemies? What techs or resources or gold should we be gifting where, to strengthen which allies when? With whom should we ally in what wars? When should we permit ROPs, and (later) with whom should we strike MPPs? The answers to these questions will shift continually in the centuries ahead. And we desperately need to find the right answers.

To provide a forum to discuss and debate these kinds of questions, we are creating the Machiavelli Institute. The Institute is a think tank, a place to analyze the geopolitics of the gameboard, a place to discuss foreign relations and debate the merits of various diplomatic moves. We are neither a political party nor a government office. Like the War Academy and the Thinkers Guild, we are a forum, a place to converse and learn from each other. Members of all political parties are welcome, as all other citizens.

If you like to join, leave word here. If you’re a member of the Institute and you post a thread concerning diplomacy or foreign affairs, precede the title with the label “Machiavelli Institute,” to identify the theme and draw other staff members into the discussion.

Institute Staff:

Robber Baron (staff secretary)
Spiffor
Papa Chubby
Donal Graeme
DAVOUT
Dark Lord
Aggie
kring
Sheik
GoodFella
civman2000
Captain
Togas
Skywalker
adaMada
jdd2007
Kloreep
Shiber
Carpathia
Vlad Antlerkov
OPD
Arnelos
History Guy
Meshelic

Welcome, all. We have very serious work ahead of us.

For reference purposes on surrounding civs, check out GePap's data: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=57569
For maps, check out Hazie's thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=57323

Robber Baron · July 21, 2002, 22:26

So we're off and running, with a big tip of the cap for Sir Ralph and the War Academy, for designing the architecture at work here.

Ninot · July 21, 2002, 22:37

This institution tickles my brain, but not my fancy, sorry

Quote:

We will have to bargain at the table, intrigue within the courts of our enemies and allies, pit our rivals against each other. Our very survival will hinge on our ability to play a dangerous game of diplomacy with supreme skill and imagination.

I can agree to the bit about supreme skill and imagination in diplomacy.. but to play a dangerous game of diplomacy, with pitting rivals.. i just cant see that.

Sheik · July 21, 2002, 23:02

I would like to join.

Robber Baron · July 21, 2002, 23:13

You are most welcome, Sheik.

Donal Graeme · July 21, 2002, 23:42

Oh well, I see that Spiffor's name stuck. I was hoping that my name would stick, but it did sound a bit too "official".

On another note I think that the first thing we should bring up for discussion is embassies. This is the proper forum for them, and I think that Sir Ralph's previous post on this matter has merit.

Also, I think that we should start sucking up to the Aztecs and the Persians right now, as odds are they will be the major players near us. The Russians are also a strong possibility.

GoodFella · July 21, 2002, 23:59

I'm in.

I'd like to discuss an idea that has been going around that several people, including myself, have been advocating.

We create a war against the two strongest nations in Abananaba MInor: Russia and Rome. We create military aliances with France and Greece against the two Abananaba Minor targets.

This accomplishes the following:
-Diverts the attentions of Greece and France away from where we'd like to expand into.
-Weakens our strongest rivals on Abananaba Minor.
-Hopefully turns Abananaba Minor into a backwater patchwork of harmless nations.

I've also been wondering for this war if it might not also be within our interest to create an ally in Babylonia. We sign a military alliance against Russia with them and a Right of Protection. We send over some troops via galley to Babylonia, weakening Russia for Babylonia and establishing a token presence for our other allies.

In the east on Abananaba Major another similar war is neccesary. England would be the best target. It is too far away to do any harm to us and will attract our opponents attention away from us.

This will accomplish the following:
-Attract the attentions of the Aztec Empire, Germany, and Persia away from territory we want.
-Strengthen Persia, who we can then use against Germany.

Some have said England is the best target, but I disagree for the following reasons:
Declaring war on the Aztecs would bring them right where we don't want them.
We could handle a war with Germany, but once again, attention where we don't want it and we would have to take some of our industry away from expansion and put it into our defense.
A war with Persia could very likely mean immortals attacking us from easily defended jungle and they could also prove to be useful allies later in the game.

Donal Graeme · July 22, 2002, 01:35

Has this anything to do with the concept of oscillating warfare? I have heard this mentioned by Sir Ralph, and am not exactly sure what it entails.
As for the merits of the plan, I think that the first part is well done. By matching off those opponents we can safeguard ourselves from a massive juggernaut which happens to occupy the lower part of the continent. However, I think that we should keep the English around. They could prove useful in case the Persians declare war on us. I do not like the idea of Immortals bashing there way through our cites when our best defensive unit is the spearman. Having the English around as a decoy would be a prudent course of action.

MrWhereItsAt · July 22, 2002, 04:42

This may be just my game, but since the I installed v1.29, I have noticed that (at Regent difficulty), it has become much harder to get the AI to do anything I want it to, from GPT deals where the Civ is far behind in tech, to declaring war where I'd like it. Perhaps this is a feature of the new patch, or maybe I was just lucky before.

Either way, it makes me wonder how easy it would be to go ahead with these strategic alliances. If it ain't that hard, then this may be another reason not to patch to v1.29 just yet.

Papa Chubby · July 22, 2002, 06:05

Perhaps we should ally ourselves with another civ as early as possible. If that would be the case then the Greeks would be a nice choice. It would be nice to have them pounding away at the French from the north while we would slip in from the south. The Greek will also most likely come into contact with the Astecs to the East, and them being the biggest defencers around, will probably not detract from their value as allies.

Also if we do this than we could safely go against the Germans, taking them out before they get their thrice-damned Panzers is imperative. Once that would be accomplished, we and the Greeks would constitute and pretty big part of our side of Abanaba, and would be an impressive bulwark against the Astecs.

Robber Baron · July 22, 2002, 08:14

Papa Chubby: The issue of early alliance definitely merits sustained analysis. I've set up a thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=56594

GoodFella: I set up another thread to discuss the Abananaba Minor Gambit:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=56572
(Though I forgot to slap the Institute label on the tread title. Doh!)

I'm hoping to use this thread to log in new members and discuss how the Institute should work.

civman2000 · July 22, 2002, 08:25

count me in

Captain · July 22, 2002, 12:50

sign me up too

Robber Baron · July 22, 2002, 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain
sign me up too

with pleasure.

UnOrthOdOx · July 22, 2002, 13:51

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
This may be just my game, but since the I installed v1.29, I have noticed that (at Regent difficulty), it has become much harder to get the AI to do anything I want it to, from GPT deals where the Civ is far behind in tech, to declaring war where I'd like it. Perhaps this is a feature of the new patch, or maybe I was just lucky before.

Either way, it makes me wonder how easy it would be to go ahead with these strategic alliances. If it ain't that hard, then this may be another reason not to patch to v1.29 just yet.

Yeah, 1.29 made some interesting changes to AI behavior. I noticed they tend not to pop rush nearly as much, either. (on Monarch, anyway, where I normally play) And generally dislike me more...

Well, congrats on getting this institution running, Baron. This is one area of the game where I just don't have the neccessary touch, perhaps it is my view that they are ALL enemies unworthy of my consideration as allies...I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with to teach me how to be diplomatic...

Robber Baron · July 22, 2002, 14:24

To tell you the truth, 'dOx, I'm not sure how much flexibility CivIII is going to give us on the diplomatic front, post-patch in particular. I hope some!
(Care to join?)

ManicStarSeed · July 22, 2002, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Ninot
I can agree to the bit about supreme skill and imagination in diplomacy.. but to play a dangerous game of diplomacy, with pitting rivals.. i just cant see that.

Actually I once found myself in second place to the Romans (with a huge expanse of terrotory on another contenent) but I was making a killing with tech/lux trading. The roman bastards sneak attacked me. I gave each other civ Mobil Warfare to sign an alliance with me against the romans. AllI had to do was wait for the romans to get to me and defend myself. The other civs were busy beating the romas down to care aboutr anything else. Within 40-50 turns I was 6-8 techs in head of everyone. The roman empire was decimated and I was able to obtain a diplomatic win (which I think is too easy) and a spaceship win.

In short the AI can be pitted against itself and it is quite usefull to create brreathing room for any number of purposes....tech lead, more expansion, consolidation, etc...

Take care..

Mss

Robber Baron · July 22, 2002, 14:37

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed

In short the AI can be pitted against itself and it is quite usefull to create brreathing room for any number of purposes....tech lead, more expansion, consolidation, etc...

Take care..

Mss

The tricky part, of course, will be to accomplish some of the same effects on our map pre-nationalism, before we have formal tools such as MPP. It's going to take some ingenuity, but it may prove indispensable.

Togas · July 22, 2002, 14:55

Please include me.

--Togas

Kuciwalker · July 22, 2002, 15:39

Count me in.

adaMada · July 31, 2002, 22:41

Can you be members of both the War Academy and the Machiavelli Institute?

-- adaMada

Robber Baron · July 31, 2002, 22:46

Quote:

Originally posted by adaMada
Can you be members of both the War Academy and the Machiavelli Institute?

-- adaMada

Absolutely. (I should hope so, since I am myself.

)
Welcome.

adaMada · July 31, 2002, 22:47

Thanks

.

-- adaMada

jdd2007 · August 1, 2002, 00:39

as i approach the throne (of becoming a king), i choose my posts carefully. my last few will be important ones. this is my 999th post. a milestone.

i sign.

*Strength and Honor!*