Hex's new potential project - WOTR - Page 2

J Bytheway · July 29, 2002, 18:49

Try the map at:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/middleearth.html
There's no settlements on that one, but there are on the more detailed maps you can reach by clicking on the regions (though probably not all the maps are there yet, but Gondor is).

Edit: On further investigation only Gondor and Mordor are mapped in more detail, but I hope that helps at least.

Edit again: and Eriador too, and some of the other entries mention cities (though not as much or as many as might be hoped...).

Immortal Wombat · July 29, 2002, 19:07

1. Sure - which wonders, which units?

2. Alliances cannot be fixed AFAIK, but regard, and trust can be set to huge levels.

3. Email me with details. This is quite easy. Oh, and if you want specific cities, I guess I'll need their map locations or names, but that means strict instructions not to change names, and allows potential for cheating.

4. Yup, need city locations for that one.

5. **search in progress**

6. There may be better maps around, the one I have bookmarked is here
Actually, this is even better: http://www.users.wineasy.se/aragorn/.../tolkien/maps/

Immortal Wombat · July 29, 2002, 19:22

Hmm, this should be easy to fill in and alter to your wishes for the units.

List of Cities: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/placciti.html

Nearer the bottom it lists by Civ, but doesn't give a geographical location for them. Most should appear on the maps. Make sure you get ones from the correct age though, they're all in together

ískallin · July 30, 2002, 08:58

but if you had the atlas of middle earth(i have him but i don´t got a scanner

)

http://www.tolkien-archives.com/maps.shtml

hexagonian · July 30, 2002, 11:28

Thanks all, this info is invaluable. The map I needed the most was the one posted by iskallin, as that one is a color coded terrain map, and I can use that one to lay out the base world.

I had seen the Atlas at a bookstore - it was $25. I probably will go ahead and get it, because it will have all the info for city placement that I will need.

Ben
Thanks for the SLIC - I will be tackling the SLIC related stuff when I get all the base text files completed.

Last night, I had a slight problem with the dual tech tree setup at the start of the game, which I was able to work through in an all-too-obvious solution.

Turambar · July 30, 2002, 15:28

If you want me to work on the GL stuff then post/email me a list of what you want entries for and I'll get started

.

My email address is turambar6@lycos.co.uk

Immortal Wombat · July 30, 2002, 18:55

Elves:

Rivendell (Imlandris)
Lorien
Thranduil
Grey Havens

Dwarves:

Erebor (the lonely mountain)
Iron Hills
Northern Mountains

Hobbits:

Hobbiton
Buckland
Michel Delving
Tuckborough
Crickhollow
Frogmorton
Bywater
Whitfurrows
Oatbarton
Overhill
Stock
Deephollow
Longbottom
Little Delving

-- There aren't many Dwarf settlements named AFAIK, and the elves were all leaving by then, so I think there were just those 4 main cities (though I'm sure Turambar can correct me if I'm wrong).

You might want to look at Harlan's Civ2 LOTR scenario - even if you don't have Civ2, the city names are in a text file.

hexagonian · July 30, 2002, 23:59

Well, the aidata files are done, and all of the conventional units have their stats entered. The final thing that I have to do is figure out the leader stats and enter in that data, and all of the text files will be basically done.

I'm hoping to have a working map put together by mid- next week...then the trick is to get the setup somewhat balanced. My target is to have a test game out in 2 weeks or so.

I'm still debating whether to have the initial test as a two civ game, though more from the standpoint to make sure that there are no easy exploits or ways to win the Scenario. If I can get a tough setup with a two-player game, then using multiple civs will make for even a tougher game.

Part of the problem is that most people who will play this are already familiar with the map and Mordor's setup, so the setup has to be especially hard.

Opinions anyone????

Turmaber, let me know what you think of the tree/units/wonders, so that I can finalize those files.

Thanks for the cities Ben - I was hoping that there would be more of the Elf/Dwarf cities - though I cannot recall any others other than those from the Silmarillion. This does make for potentially hard games, especially since players will not be able to build new cities - so playing the elves and taking on the might of Mordor with 4 cities 'should' be hard.

I tried downloading the SLIC file but got a 'missing page' Is this the same file as the Wonderunits file, or does this file have the added feature of disbanding a Leader for a new one.

Actually, I can use the Updater file too, but a Wonder SLIC is a more elegant way to do it.

Locutus · July 31, 2002, 10:18

Dave,
What are your plans for the beta? Public or closed? For a scenario I personally think that your original idea of keeping the files within a small group of testers is the best way to go. With people like John, Ben, Turambar and maybe ískallin you have a good group of people who can give you useful feedback on 'historic' accuracy, gameplay and help you out with modding (read: SLIC). Maybe one more experienced playtester (without modding or Tolkien background) would be useful, but as you pointed out, much of the challenge in a scenario like this comes from not knowing much about it, so replayability is limited. With a public beta you won't have much of an audience left once the scenario is ready for release, so don't go public until it's (as good as) ready...

Don't count on being able to finish this in two weeks, but just because it might take a month or two (or maybe even longer), doesn't mean the rest of us can't wait until it's done...

J Bytheway · July 31, 2002, 10:54

If your scenario starts early enough you could have another Dwarf settlement in Moria (The one Balin founded between the Hobbit and LOTR which Gimli talks about at the Coucil of Elrond) - but that settlement should probably start almost overrun by the orcs.

Also, I think there were Dwarves in the Blue mountains (wasn't that where Thorin and co. were coming from at the start of the Hobbit?) There were certainly some there before the War of Wrath, and I suspect some Dwarves remained. But the biggest settlements should probably be in the Iron Hills.

IMHO, the elves shouldn't have a chance of defeating Mordor alone - their influence was almost totally insignificant by that time outside of their realms. IIRC (I think I read about these in the Atlas - that's very good on the battles - it even gives you numbers of troops as far as possible) there were assaults by Easterlings and other minions of Sauron on Lorien, Erebor and Mirkwood at about the same time Minas Tirith was attacked which never really get mentioned in LOTR - Sauron really did have an awful lot of troops.

Immortal Wombat · July 31, 2002, 11:32

Quote:

I tried downloading the SLIC file but got a 'missing page' Is this the same file as the Wonderunits file, or does this file have the added feature of disbanding a Leader for a new one.

Its new code. That's wierd though, it works for me.
Anyway, this is it:

Code:

int_T	FIRST_UNIT[];
int_T	END_UNIT[];
int_t	METAMORPH_WONDER[];

void_f	InitWonders()
{
	FIRST_UNIT[0] = UnitDB(UNIT_GANDALF_THE_GREY);
	FIRST_UNIT[1] = UnitDB(UNIT_BLACK_RIDER);

	END_UNIT[0] = UnitDB(UNIT_GANDALF_THE_WHITE);
	END_UNIT[1] = UnitDB(UNIT_NAZGUL);

	METAMORPH_WONDER[0] = WonderDB(WONDER_GANDALF_THE_WHITE);
	METAMORPH_WONDER[1] = WonderDB(WONDER_NAZGUL_EMERGE);
}


HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'init_metamorposes_wonders' pre {
	InitWonders();
	DisableTrigger('init_metamorposes_wonders');
}

HandleEvent(CreateWonder) 'gandalf the white' pre{
	int_T	i;
	int_t	j;
	int_T	tmpPlayer;
	city_t	tmpCity;
	unit_t	tmpUnit;
	location_t	tmpLoc;

	tmpPlayer = city[0].owner;

	for(i=0; i < METAMORPH_WONDER.#; i = i + 1){
		if(value[0] == METAMORPH_WONDER[i]){
			j = i;
		}
	}
	for(i = 0; i < tmpPlayer.units; i = i + 1){
		GetUnitByIndex(tmpPlayer, i, tmpUnit);
		if(tmpUnit == FIRST_UNIT[j]){
			tmpLoc = tmpUnit.location;
			Event:DisbandUnit(tmpUnit);
			CreateUnit(tmpPlayer, END_UNIT[j], tmpLoc, 0);
		}
	}
}

I haven't tested it yet, but it should run similarly to the updater SLIC. Fill in the unit and wonder arrays exactly like the updater arrays, only with wonders instead of advances.

Martin Gühmann · July 31, 2002, 12:10

Code:

Event:DisbandUnit(tmpUnit);

Please Ben if you post slic code disable the smilies in your post or post it marked as php-code.

PHP Code:


Event:DisbandUnit(tmpUnit);

Edit: I thought php would fix the smily problem, but obviously it doesn't, so you have disable them, at least you can use php-code for the Great Library.

Actual it is not the optimal sollution but better then the first.

That's make me wonder if it would be possible for Marcos to add slic code with slic speciffic syntax highlighting.

-Martin

hexagonian · July 31, 2002, 12:30

The plan has has always been to keep the beta test private. In fact, I'm hoping for the SLICers to make suggestions for some in game events and triggers that can be developed over time and added in.

The people suggested are good for me - do you also want to be one of the testers Wouter????

One of my goals is to have all the foundation files ready to go by next week (not any new SLICS though), as well as a rough map.

One of the main reasons why I am leaning toward the initial two civ setup is to work out the inbalances and positioning of troops/cities, and this will be the simplest setup to do so. As long as I have a copy of the base map without cities/units and so forth, I can easily create a variety of maps as feedback comes back in. I have a good picture in my mind what I want to do.

As for the final product, I do not have a definite timetable, but I do want the public release to be a polished product - that much is for sure. I want to avoid the things I had happen with early versions of Cradle.

One final question??? Since this is going to be a scenario, would it be better to use the basic default scenario structure that shipped with the game, or do it through Modswapper. To be honest, I have not tried doing a premade scenario through Modswapper, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Immortal Wombat · July 31, 2002, 12:33

Oh well, its readable.

The most annoying is < tags that try to turn half the SLIC into HTML

Locutus · July 31, 2002, 13:04

Use [code] tags and 'Disable Smilies in This Post' solves most of the SLIC display problems. The only real problem is that you'll have to manually insert hard line-breaks every eighty characters or so... but vBB still handles this a thousand times better than those stupid old uBB boards, like we used in the old days (I'm getting old

)...

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
The plan has has always been to keep the beta test private.

Oh, okay. I was under the impression that you were considering a public beta, I guess I misunderstood. I'm not sure how good good your testers (apart from IW) are with SLIC but I yeah, more SLIC events are would be great and Harlan proved to me that you don't necessarilly need to have knowledge of SLIC to be able to make good suggestions (sometimes it's even a disadvantage), but it does help. I think you're okay in this respect.

Quote:

The people suggested are good for me - do you also want to be one of the testers Wouter????

Not unless you really want me too

I have a very busy schedule, my staff member duties, real-life, I already promised to help out tigger with his Dutch War scenario (which is also a subject which appeals more to me, as much as I like Tolkien) and I have a lot of ideas of my own that I would like to work on (H2H diplomacy, the goold old HotW mod, SLIC documentation, a SLIC database tool, etc). So if you want to, I wouldn't mind trying to help out where I can, but if you would just as well take someone else in my place, I'd rather decline...

Quote:

One final question??? Since this is going to be a scenario, would it be better to use the basic default scenario structure that shipped with the game, or do it through Modswapper. To be honest, I have not tried doing a premade scenario through Modswapper, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Well, you'll be forced to use the scenario-setup because of the pre-made map, so I guess you don't have much choice. Unless you want to put all files except the map in the regular files folders, but I'm not sure if there's an advantage to that...

Immortal Wombat · July 31, 2002, 13:16

Quote:

Well, you'll be forced to use the scenario-setup because of the pre-made map, so I guess you don't have much choice. Unless you want to put all files except the map in the regular files folders, but I'm not sure if there's an advantage to that...

The main advantage is not having to start a new game from the scenario before reloading a save-game.
Make it a mod, but just use the scenario structure for the map etc.

Anyway, here is Harlan's City list.

Martin Gühmann · July 31, 2002, 13:27

Quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian
One final question??? Since this is going to be a scenario, would it be better to use the basic default scenario structure that shipped with the game, or do it through Modswapper. To be honest, I have not tried doing a premade scenario through Modswapper, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
Well, you'll be forced to use the scenario-setup because of the pre-made map, so I guess you don't have much choice. Unless you want to put all files except the map in the regular files folders, but I'm not sure if there's an advantage to that...

As Wouter said for a premade map you have to use the scenario file structure, now it comes to the text files, they could be setup over ModSwapper, actual I would make it so that I use the basic Cradle files (actual that was your intension) and use the scenario file structure for the rest of the files, note that in this case all the files that replace original Cradle files must have the same prefix like the Cradle files otherwise the game will look up the files in the gamefile.txt and find there it should search for a file with a prefix search for it in the scenario folder can't find it and will load finally the default Cradle file. The only advantage I could consider to setup all the files over ModSwapper is that you could have less problem with loading games in the scenario file structure.

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
Oh well, its readable.

The most annoying is < tags that try to turn half the SLIC into HTML

For that problem you could use the php tags and of course disable smilies:

PHP Code:


[ADVANCE_ADVANCED_COMPOSITES_PREREQ]

Requires:

<L:DATABASE_ADVANCES,ADVANCE_CONSERVATION>Conservation<e>

<L:DATABASE_ADVANCES,ADVANCE_SUPERSONIC_FLIGHT>Supersonic Flight<e>

[END]



[ADVANCE_ADVANCED_COMPOSITES_STATISTICS]

Gives:

<L:DATABASE_UNITS,UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER>Stealth Fighter<e>

<L:DATABASE_UNITS,UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER>Stealth Bomber<e>

[END]

Edit: The only disatvantage of php is that it inserts between every line a blanc line. :(

-Martin

Immortal Wombat · July 31, 2002, 18:12

I have downloaded a monster (33Mb, 56k modem

) Civ3 LOTR mod, which is the only one I have seen to promise fantasy units so far (AFAIK), and really its just what we have, though there is an "Istari" unit that might be useful, and a Kraken. Also, there is a troll, but its not very impressive, and might not be worth the bother if trolls are not going to be important.

hexagonian · August 1, 2002, 10:17

I currently have the files set up using Modswapper with a LOTR_ prefix. I ran a 15 turn test yesterday attempting to run a premade LOTR_ created map (I saved a random map through the editor while in the LOTR_ Modswapper option) through Modswapper's Scenario option with no apparant problem.

One thing I did note was that I had attempted to change the position of a few terrain tiles in the LOTR_terrain.txt after creating the map, and it did some funky things to the map I had saved. So its probably good that I'm making the map last.

I'll probably take a closer look at using some of the suggested sprites in the future, but probably not until after the initial playtesting. What is available in Cradle/CTP2 is sufficient for the moment. (BTW, The CTP2 Moray Striker is a great one for a Watcher)

It would be nice to get a Gandalf on Shadowfax...

The text files are just about finished - I'm making some templates for Turambar for the GL

hexagonian · August 5, 2002, 09:55

It took about 10 hours of work this past weekend, but the base map is done - (Gigantic) No units or cities have been placed yet though.

(BTW, the Middle Earth atlas I bought this past weekend is an exceptional resource.) Middle-Earth is a very sparse land, in terms of population and cities, which is forcing me to rethink some of what I want to do and how to do it.

It looks like I have to have at least 3 civs in the game too.

Immortal Wombat · August 5, 2002, 10:33

Yes, but you can place one with 0 units, and it dies straight away.

ískallin · August 5, 2002, 17:52

In the scenario you shouldn't be able to build elf units because
the elve children grew in a sow long time (hundreds and maybe thousands of years)that building new troops of elvs would take too long, in the same way the elven city wouldn't grow rather shrink for that matter. (elves going to Valinor)

As the dwarfen units would take wery long time to build for the same reasons and ther cities would take long time to grow because dwarfen womens were few and the dwarfs to fascinated with gold and gems to acully have intrest to have wife!!

I can do a little GL but i smashed my right hand so i can do wery little

Immortal Wombat · August 5, 2002, 18:08

Code:

HandleEvent(AddPop) 'dontgrow' pre{    
if(city[0].location == RivendellLoc){
    AddPops(city[0], -1);
}
}

Turambar · August 6, 2002, 14:44

An Elven child was cosidered an adult elf at the age of 50 but this figure was given for elves in Valinor during peace time.

Rivendell would need to have a pop of 1 anyway.

Immortal Wombat · August 6, 2002, 16:42

Just one?

I guess it needs to be strategically important to keep for something other than its productivity then

Turambar · August 6, 2002, 16:56

Well during the WOTR it would of had a pop of 200 - 300 people but have a capacity for far more. It's strategic importance was as a military position position during the wars with Sauron in the second age.

J Bytheway · August 7, 2002, 08:27

It was also handy for controlling the river to drown the Black Riders (though I can't remember the details of that - probably Elrond could have done it from somewhere else...).

But mainly it's home to all (most...) of the (high) elves who might actually wander out into the big wide world like Glorfindel. It seems to me that most elves in Lorien and the Havens are much more stay-at-home.

ískallin · August 7, 2002, 14:08

in the Ered Luin (Blue mountains) they where refugees from the great dwarfen citadel of Tumunzahar wich was a city that was destroyd i the destructionof Beleriand.Mostof the dwarfs headed south to the city Belegost who survived the fall. Belegost was in the south part of Ered Luin.

hex just e-mail me and let my now if you have some GL for me

Turambar · August 7, 2002, 14:55

Quote:

It was also handy for controlling the river to drown the Black Riders (though I can't remember the details of that - probably Elrond could have done it from somewhere else...).

Elronds ring allowed him to do that.

Quote:

great dwarfen citadel of Tumunzahar

Is that the Dwarven translation for Nogrod?

Quote:

Mostof the dwarfs headed south to the city Belegost who survived the fall. Belegost was in the south part of Ered Luin.

I'm fairly sure both cities were destroyed during the War of Wrath.

ískallin · August 7, 2002, 15:40

yeb its the translation for Nogrod

about Belegost i though so to but after researching The Atlas of Middle earth i found out this: "The dwarf city of Nogrod probably collapsed when the Blue mountains broke apart. The dwarves who escaped the ruin moved to lesserdelvings---especially in the south where Belegost apparently survived."