Alamo Testing Thread

[Aeson]

I just played the first couple turns, and the battles for the chokepoints are much more interesting now. The AI still refuses to try and break through (or waits until Armies show up) if I just pile a bunch of MI's in the way. Probably no way to change that in a mod though.

A Settler built the first turn, and a town named Panama could be a huge difference with the way the chokepoints are set up now...

[Velociryx]

Hmmm...I'll have to play out the scenario a little further then....after the setup turn, both Germany and Russia gleefully pounced on the choke points, pressing hard against them, and I've just gotten them back (haven't played further than that yet)....I was *hoping* they'd keep the pressure on, though there is about a two turn delay before significant reinforcements arrive....might have to shift some of their reinforcements (and perhaps an empty army) forward slightly so they have a steadier stream of units to hit with).

But I must say, I was really happy with the Russian/German performance on the first turn. The combination of watching those Elite F-15's guard the skies and watching our gallant defenders at the choke points do their best was pretty cool....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

PS: Yeah...I had thought of building a city at one of the narrows also...after the naval squadron in the inland sea gains firm control of the region, it'd be nice (and muchly needed) to be able to scoot them outta there.

-=Vel=-

[phunny_pharmer]

If I may post a suggestion without downloading the game (if this had been downloaded on the weekend, I would have done so)-

Make the human able to move, say, 5 units on the first turn. Strip a for of a unit or two, and allow the Americans to have a 'mobile reserve'. Therefore, the player has a choice of moves before the epic battle.

Just to increase the nail-biting tension and the banging of heads against the wall afterwards.

Trust me, if I was in command of only five movable units, and I was told that I would be attacked by %&@)* after I hit -enter-, I would spend a full 15 minutes looking for the 'right' place for these units.

Can't wait until the real version comes out...

Edit: seems that using the <> around -enter- didn't function. I should have guessed...

[Velociryx]

Hmmm...I like that...yeah....

Since Washington is the Capitol, I'll tweak the forces IN washington a bit....the revised turn 1 instructions will be that you can move any of the land forces IN Washington as you like, modify production in any city, and then....hit enter and watch the fit hit the shan.



Conjectural Washington Forces at your disposal:

2 Elite Mechanized Infantry (already there)
1 Scout (already there)
2 Radar Artillery (will make veterans - must add)
1 Modern Armor

-=Vel=-

[Aeson]

I just tried it (moving the MA, MI, and RA)... saved 3 of the 6 forts that I'd lose otherwise!

[Velociryx]

Tried which? Moving the fortified guys at the choke points around, or adding some units to washington and moving those?

-=Vel=-

[Proserpine]

I look forward to playing this mod when it's finished

. . . and when I get better at C3

[Aeson]

Just moving the 2 Elite MI's to where I thought they'd do the most good, taking to RA's and bombarding roads leading up to the Russian side forts, and taking a MA from reserves and pillaging another of the roads (leaving just one road access point on the russian side). Didn't do anything with the Scout!

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: gotcha! Yeah....five units might not seem like much, but it truly does make a difference. I like that too, cos it gives the player a more active hand in laying strategy, while preserving the "AI gets to strike first" spirit of things. Very cool!

May yet still nudge germany and russia up slightly in starting forces to compensate for this (3 more MA each?), but that shouldn't change the outcome too drastically.

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Phhh.... I wish I was in better shape right now to do some testing.... I just came back from a bar to celebrate my birthday with some collegaes, and I feel like I have to go to bed early this evening. I'm sorry Vel, I won't be of much help today

If you can bring up the patience until tomorrow, I'll gladly comment on the first few turns. I guess you want to post the final this weekend, so there still might be some chance to help out.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Happy Birthday!

Sounds like you had a good time, and that's the most important thing!

Get some rest, bud! I'll make a couple of final nips and tucks to the scenario and post the changes this evening (will be late this evening tho, cos I gotta head up to the retirement home tonight), and we'll see if that puts it just about where we want it. My sense of it is that the scenario is prolly something close to 95% ready as it stands now....just a few minor adjustments to get us over the line....

So...sleep well, and look for the updated version of the file!

-=Vel=-

PS: Since everybody seemed to like the Babylon scenario, I was thinking of trying to convert it to 1.29 compatibility. It's my understanding though, that you can't do that from a sav file....anybody know for sure? Barring that, anybody know if anything gruesome would happen if I were to try to load the Babylon save now that I've upgraded to 1.29? I'm thinking that once we get the Alamo done, and once I put the wraps on the last one I have in my head ("Barbarians at the Gate"), it might be nice to have 'em all together as a single zip....?

-V.

[DeepO]

Thanks Vel... 28, I feel the 30 creeping closer. But then again, I'm not the oldest here, am I

I like what I have read so far, it looks like it gets closer to be perfect. I too asked for some initial free turns in the beginning of the game (might have gotten lost in all my ramblings); I thought 10 units would be cool. But as many of these are fixed, I like he 5 as well, if they are really 'free'. I was hoping to test that, but it will have to wait... I surely want to test the Marines, though, and have some nice tactic thought out to try. But if it works, I want to keep it for the final spoiler thread

DeepO

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Barring that, anybody know if anything gruesome would happen if I were to try to load the Babylon save now that I've upgraded to 1.29

All the old save files I have left over from before the patch have worked fine since I upgraded.

[Velociryx]

264 in dog years, here!

Yep! And in looking back thru the thread, I found your reference to freebie units....noooo problemo....one of the coolest things about the scenario should be seeing how people make use of their freebies....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

That's outstanding news, Stoo! If the interest is there in seeing the "three-pack" of scenarios ("Babylon and On" "Last Stand at the Alamo" and "Barbarians at the Gate")--and maybe a couple of others if inspiration strikes--then I'll duly wrap them up....

-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Velociryx
if inspiration strikes

when doesn't it for you, mate?

seriously, though, I think it would be a neat idea to zip all three of the scenario's up into a Vel-pack.

(btw, did you get the e-mails I sent you today?)

[Velociryx]

Ahhhh, now and then I'm afflicted with a case of writer's block, but for the most part, if I keep the sweet tea and tortilla chips flowing, all is well in my world...LOL...sometimes it's downright NICE not to require much to be happy....

-=Vel=-
D'oh! Haven't thought to check my mail all day! heading there now!

PS: Don't know if you've seen it yet or no, but I had a little Civ-inspired fiction bug to get out, and posted another lil' story over in civ3 stories....check it out and lemme know what you think when you get a bit!

[Velociryx]

Mail checked and replied to, brother Stoo!

-=Vel=-

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Maybe you can submit this scenario to firaxis and get it included in PTW. I wanted to help playtest, but my mac version only goes up to 1.21 b. So it didnt work.

[Velociryx]

Was away for a longer time than I thought, and dragging my tired butt to bed just now, so I'll not be able to make the final change to the Alamo file, BUT...all the ingredients are pretty much in place, 'cept for the slight bulking up of the Russian/German initial attack wave. So....for the immediacy, a pretty close approximation would be to abide by the following constraints on turn one:

a) You may move the two elite MI's from Washington to anyplace you like, so long as they do not initiate an attack.

b) You may move one fortified MA to anyplace you like, so long as it does not initiate an attack.

c) Two Radar Artillery may open fire on terrain improvements. They may not shell enemy troops.

d) You may move your starting Scout anyplace you like, including crossing into enemy territory.

(pretty much what Aeson did earlier)

That should be a close approximation of what the tweaked scenario will allow for, 'cept all the movable units will be in Washington when I next open the editor. 'nighters for now!

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Vel, I don't have access to the game right here, but I've got maybe a more fundamentally question to ask. What if you'd fortify half of the troops in the cities, standing down the rest, and let the player decide what to do with them? It would be possible that players would 'abuse' this freedom by ensuring that none of the fortresses get overrun the first turn, but there is a possibility to avoid that: If you would break up some of the mountain road leading to the German choke points, and put some workers there to build it again; they will be ready the next turn, right in time for the main occupation force to arrive without too much loss of movement points.

The reason why I'm proposing that is, as you allow only a very limited number of freebies, there is very little strategical decision left: you either move them like Aeson did, or not. And as we know that Aeson's moves are better, everybody should move, or is immediately in a disadvantage.

Further some thoughts, again without access to the new save: would it be too much to ask to give Magellan's voyage to the US? I hope that, when adding 20 destroyers to each AI's navy, you also bumped up our navy a bit as well (I anticipate the AIs using those destroyers not as tranny-nannies, but on the offensive at first), but giving us one extra movement could be a big advantage without pressing the numbers too hard.

Lastly, I intend to focus much of my testing on how the AI will handle the marines. If you really gave 60-80 beefed-up marines to each AI, it might be that they form amphibious SoDs... So far I can't think of one tactic that would negate them if this happened in the first few turns, except of sinking their transports. But the testing will have to wait until I get back from work.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Hmmm....a good point re: units and flexibility....as I see it though, the moves (or lack of moves) on the first turn really represent something of a line in the sand, arbitrarily drawn, and with the intention of letting the AI strike first and draw first blood. The really deep strategic choices come as a result of that first turn AI attack, on the human player's turn two. Even with a handful of units shifted around, the AI will overrun 3-4 choke points, and then it's crunch time. Do you dare risk the resources to get those choke points back, or cut your losses there, and consolidate at a secondary line of defense? Build Panama, with an eye toward freeing up your inland see fleet to help fend off the newly bulked up enemy navies, or rely on native production? Those are the choices that will ultimately save or kill you....the unit moves on turn one are more for spice and variety than anything.

In my latest test, for example, every unit action I did was on the German front. For some reason, the Russians just don't press the attack as hard (even though they're both set to max aggression). I shelled two road tiles, moved my two elite MI's to cover my tanks sitting on the German front, and reinforced one of my RA positions with the other tank. Still lost 3 forts on the frontier, but it was tight....very cool battling!

With luck, I'll be able to get the final touches put on it this evening, and upon hearing reports back on how the AI is performing with all its new toys and adjusting as needed, I'm thinking she'll be ready....

-=Vel=-
PS: America got a minor boost in her naval power, amounting to a fistful of new subs. Not much compared to the 80 new enemy destroyers in place on the map, and that may be something we need to bulk up on for the USA. If needs be, I'll assign them 1-2 more task forces in the south to reposition as needed....

-V.

EDIT: Excellent idea re: Magellen's! I'll add it tonight!

[DeepO]

I agree with the freebie question, I too think the first turn is more to get a good feeling of what you're facing, and not so to really make the game. If you would be able to hold on to all your forts, part of the fun of having to take them back (if you decide so) is gone... I was just posting some other possibilities to get some discussion going. But, more precise comments will follow, when I tested beta 2.

The Panama strat is an interesting one, I'll certainly try it to see if it adds to the game. I guess it will, but we'll see.

Regarding the added navy power: if it would be too little to be playable, I guess the best place to position some extra ships would be on the norther coast of America: Not only the AIs will have to get into position, but we as well. This would create a reserve, which will add a bit of power to the US without being unbalancing ().... as it is now, the earliest we can reinforce our navy would be 3 turns into the game, and only with a few units (or you'd have to spend a lot on rushing). This might be too hard in this game, we still want some of us to be able to win, don't we!

It seems I can still test beta 2 before you tweak it further. I'm glad for this... I'll post my results in a few hours

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Good luck man! And yes! I like the idea of placing some far-flung, and pretty strong American naval squadron....perhaps as an indication that the Americans were getting their navy into position to do some headhunting....with Magellen's (which I'm planning to ad to Atlanta or somewhere when I get home), I'm thinking that an additional two task forces, close enough to support each other, and somewhere close to china, consisting of:

1 BB
2 AEGIS
4 DD
4 SUB

might be just the thing. That'd give America an additional 22 ships (compared to the AI's recently added collective 80 DD's), and would probably help quite a lot....might be too far the other way tho....I wanna make it downright hard to keep those howling marines at bay....give the USA too much navy at the outset, and it may be all too easy to keep the trannies sunk....perhaps just one task force then?

-=Vel=-
(looking forward to the results of the latest round of testing!)

[DeepO]

22 extra ships... I don't know, seems a bit much. It will definately help, that's for sure. But maybe it is not needed to have two full attack forces, after all they are reservists.

I think, for testing purposes, I'm going to try to steal all the AIs battle plans next time. I wonder how much this will cost me, but it would definately help in commenting on this. If I can do it a few turns after each other (reloading each time, to keep the cash, of course) it would give some insight in how the AI is planning on using their naval power... hmmm... I think I'll leave for home early today (meaning right now)

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Shouldn't be too bad....I made spies for demo = elites, and cut the prices of all the espionage options, so you should be okay there....

And yeah, two task forces is prolly a bit much....will have to rethink that...but, before I decide for sure either way, I'll wait to hear back on the testing front...cos the version you've got has the AI with all its new DD's and the USA only marginally bulked up with 4-5 new subs.

Underdogs!!!! LOL

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Right... the next phase in testing.

First some initial observations before starting:
You still have two attack subs that will survive, and two subs that won't, but have 'funny' names to people not up to date on how this game was set up. Plus the date is still 4000BC. No need to change that now, but for perfection please remember these in the final save.

The USS Deep-O: Thanks! Now I have to make sure I keep that baby around, it is in a very sensitive area The Brigitte Bardot has more chance, but then again, she really is a great lady, and survives irl as well

The changes to the chokepoints look promising, however I fear that the German will get overrun too easily... maybe limiting the nearest crossing to 3 instead of 4 (by removing the SE tile with the 2 MAs) would be enough of a challenge...

The freebie units... well... if I was handed this save without the explicit instructions to move only a few units I would certainly get everything I had on the chokepoints. I think that standing down the largest part of the city-MIs, maybe even all of them (and thus leaving only out-of-city units free for changing positions) might be a better way of restricting players to not abuse it. My idea of what would be movable: All the immediate endangered MIs (as they should be foritified to give some resistance), 2(maybe 3) radars (1 on the German front, 1 on the Russian?) and perhaps 3 MIs and 1 MA. This would mean it is not possible to keep all forts, no matter how hard you try. You can, at best, chose which you want to keep.

Unit placement: I would put some of the subs more off the coast, for better scouting. Even if wanting to give the impression that units are just now steaming up to the hot areas, scouts would be a bit farther away from the coast.
I really like the better placement of the workers, last time I was a bit annoyed at seeing that nearly none of them was available the first turn to repair bombing damage, now it looks like most of them are ready to start working.

As said, I wanted to steal battle plans each turn to keep an eye on how the AIs were doing. I still think it's a good idea, however there is one practical consideration: I don't have enough gold! I can get the Japanese and Chinese plans, but not the other. This might get better in the next turns, certainly if the AIs decide to change govs... but just for testing purposes: could the next round have a bit more cash, please?

I noticed the marine stacks, and the destroyer/transports stacks of the Asian Civs... this will get nasty. Maybe giving 20 destroyers extra was a bit too much, the two civs will arrive at around the same time, and there is no way we can sink all of those boats. Okay, maybe we can handle the destroyers, but then we don't have anything left for the transports... what about cutting their nannies by half?

The Chinese boats will be very interesting, it most likely will mean that they will attack the US from the East. And as the navy on that side is weaker, it will be a very close fight. I like it

Something else: I noticed you have coastal fortresses in all cities, and was going to propose them if you didn't had them already, but is it possible to beef these up a little? Last time I didn't see them bombard the AIs once, which might as well be because they simply missed... 8 seems a reasonable bombard strength, but am I right in thinking that their range is now only 1, and could be modded to 2? In this game, that doesn't sound like a big advantage to us, but might help a little...

turn 1(3950BC): I don't know what you guys did with only moving those few pieces, I thought I didn't do that bad. I just lost 5 forts, including 8 radars... I'm toast, there is no way I can reconquer this... a lost game indeed. It may be a random seed thing (I was unlucky with quite a few of the battles), but if this happens in a player's game, there is no way he's going to like the challenge. I'll retry, moving a bit more forces this time (actually pulling back!) but this was too unbalancing. I'll play a few turns, to see what happens, and if I can keep both the Germans and the Russians from attacking my cities, but I guess I'll lose this in under 10 turns, certainly with the armies that I know are going to appear. Being an underdog is one thing, but this... ouch. But first the rest of the observations.

I tried to regain control, and thanks to the God of the RNG, I got two leaders with my first two elite victories!! My used elites are now in the open German territory, so will be lost, but having both a MA and a MI 4x armie surely can help. I nearly won the German forts back, but I'm still thinking on how to keep them too.

Vel, did you mod the stealth fighters and bombers? Or is this a plain BUG? So far, all stealths that I have used to bomb something in reach of a defending jet got shot down... it is the second time I see it, the same happened in beta 1. This is surely abnormal, I know stealths get shot down sometimes, but not always... not one survived? What are the chances of that, knowing the intercept rate being only 5%?? Damn annoying... I can only use radars to bomb enemy territory, and I just lost 8 of them

end of turn1: I managed to get a hold of all forts again. but at great losses, I'm not sure if I would have done the same in the real game. Further, I just looked at the Asian plans (the others still being too expensive), the AI surely moves in interesting paterns. So far, only a few of the marines have been loaded, but it looks like they are converging their transports, if this works I have several super invasions on my hand... all my cities are now empty, the MIs defending the choke points. I hope this works...

start of turn 2: The Germans just rolled over my defensive forces... Vel, that 4-tile chokepoint is impossible to hold when you have a bit of bad luck! I'm down to 24 MI, 7 MA and 6 RA. The Germans now have 15 MA, 2 MI 2 RA and a leader inside my territory. There is no way I can kill those, let alone do something about the reinforcements on their way. I agree that with a bit better strategy on my side, it would not be so bad, but I literally used everything I had on defense, and still they broke through. No, this has to change, I don't consider myself a bad player, if I have these difficulties in the second turn, there is no way all players can get to turn 10 relatively unharmed. As it is now, I'll lose St louis in the next turn, as I have 8 MAs within reach... there is just no stopping them.

The navy is faring little better, but they too are getting hit heavily. As expected, the 20 nannie-destroyers the AI has been given are not used exclusively as defense, some of them are, while others are coming at full steam towards my territory. I would at least half them... but keep the transports. Also, I now have enough cash to spy on the Germans and Russians, and while the Russians are moving their marines closer to me on foot, the Germans are stuck on the island... the transports are heading to the main continent, presumably to pick up MI-MA.
Oh, and I just lost the USS Velocyrix... against a 2 HP Destroyer... some more bad luck.

I see no way in keeping the German side of my empire, but just to spy on the AI a bit more I'll play another 2 turns. This is a lost game, and I can't feel it to be my fault

Turn 3(3850BC): St Louis is no more. My FP is gone, and I'm down to 20MI, 7 MA, 6 RA (including what I just build). The Germans now have more troops inside my territory than I own... they are already advancing towards Miami, Houston and Detroit. The Russians are planning something, they just withdrew all troops from my border, I can only guess they'll try to come by sea.

The Germans have loaded one transport full with marines from the nothern island, the rest is going both east and west. At least that is going well Air attacks are also intensifying, and they do use artillery when attacking from within a city. Other than that, all RA are retreating on defense. The inland sea force sure is better now: I've sunk 2 trannies so far, and have 3 more in sight. I'm not sure I can take them all out without overexposing my navy.

Russian troop movement is indeed coming over the seas, and are relatively spread out. On their own, my remaining navy could handle them (but of course the Japanese and Chinese are also pressing). That front is quite balanced, even if it takes 3 quarters of all my troops.

Chinese troops are also doing well, the extra transports are getting filled. But here the same problem: I have not nearly enough ships to fight them off, and when they will coincide with the others, this is going to become a massive invasion. Our navy really needs more ships, I changed my mind on the extra 22 ships: these are more then needed.

Japan similar: they are currently loading their transports, and as nearly all of them will be loaded at the same time, this is going to be a hell of an attack. Most of these will consist of all their MAs, some MIs, and a large part of their marines. Quite a few destroyers are keeping their nannie role, the others are steaming at full force towards me to soften my navy up. In this game there is no holding them back, but with an adequate navy that might change.

Turn 4: I'm writing this while in my game the Germans keep flooding into my territory. Wow. If you lose one chokepoint, game over... there is no way you are going to recuperate. I don't know if anyone has played 10 turns of beta 2, I surely would like to hear comments on how to hold on... I haven't used any nukes yet, but right now I would need at least 3 to get more or less rid of all the troops in my borders, or in the razed territory. I won't count, this just takes way too long.

Some final observations: as Germany has caught my spy, I cannot both add a new one, and steal their plans. How they are handling their marines I don't know, but other than that their intentions are quite clear. I will lose 4 cities next turn, unless I use a lot of nukes.

China: all their transports are loaded, and will not arrive at once (but spread over 2 or 3 turns it seems). troops are mainly MA and marines, so that's fine.

Japan will have two main stacks of transports, loaded with MI and MA. the marines are only now reaching the coast, but there still is a stack of 7 trannies left behind... also, many destroyers are on nannie duty, but still they managed to sink most of my still remaining navy. I have no way of countering them, an other game over situation is in the making. A small force is going through Russian territory to reach me over land, but by the time they would get here, I have nothing left to destroy

For the Russians, things are relatively calm. There are quite some troops massing on my border, but not problematic. They have loaded up nearly all of the transports, but as it will take the larger part of these 15 turns to reach me, I have no fear (yet). Giving them 20 extra transports actually made them less of a threat: most of their MIs are now loaded on trannies on the nothern part of the map, their marines are spread out over their territory. They are even coming through the German territory to enter my land, but this will take quite a while as well...

So, I quit. I'm dead anyway. The last change to the scenario was a bit too much, it became unbalanced (or at least in my case it became. Plus, this proves to me that if, by bad karma or poor play, things slip for just an instance, there is no way in returning to normal... it is a very tricky situation.

More comments will come, but first of all I need to take a 15 minute break. I never had such an arse whipping in any game in my whole life

DeepO

[Velociryx]

OUCH! Yeah....I'd say I went a little too far the other way, bro....sheesh...sorry for the abuse you took! I'm heading to the editor right now and making some more changes, so while you're taking a breather, I'll see what I can do to bulk up the American forces. You're right....I want it to be an impossible fight, but I don't want the first two turns to be completely demoralizing!

Heading off to do some editing now....hang tight, and I'll post the updated file....see if we can even things out just a tad more!

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

No problem Vel, that's why we test it...

Some more things: I'm partial to the ADM of the marines, or to their numbers. Without countering possibilities, it would be a real problem if the AI would dump 2 transports of them on some hill on the coast. You'd lose quite a bit of MAs in the process, and you don't have many to begin with.

Definately give us more navy. The added transports are nice (apart the Russian ones, I wouldn't give them 20 more, but maybe 5-10). But use the same trick as with the AI ships, keep them away so they'll need several turns to come into position.

About the chokepoint, maybe it is good to make it so that we can retreat in multiple turns (by having a chokepoint 3 tiles wide, 3 tiles high). Surely on the German side this is needed, the Russians are calm, but those Germans sure want to blitz you. If they get through, it is over, so you should have some fall back possibilities.

Maybe some more MIs are welcome, we don't have much reserve. Or give us Sistine, so we can draft a bit (I didn't do it this time, but you can be sure I'll do it next time, happyness problems or not) At any rate, players should be given the possibility of using more freebies, or more of the MI should be present as a backup (in the second lie of defense). If the AI gets past the first line of defense, there is no way to stop him

Please take a look at those stealths, you didn't put them on 100% interceptable by accident, did you?

Maybe, loading up some of the transports with marines already is a sure way of having the AI use them as intended. However, I saw little problems with that, except perhaps the shear numbers of destroyers.

Put some F15s in Washington on air superiority: now you lose 2 turns before they can be of any good. Also, there is one city on the north (I can't remember which one, and Civ is closed right now and will stay so for a bit longer ) that doesn't have an airport. The F15s do not have a chance of healing quickly, and exactly this city is under constant barrage.

Some other idea: now, each AI civ has a spy implanted, but what if you'd also steal all of the plans the first turn? Players should know what to expect, as it is massive. After that, there is no money left to do it constantly (or you'd need to cheat and reload, like I did) it might prepare them in part for where to put what troops. It will mean that many people will study the map for half an hour before starting the game, but it could be a great strategic thing to do...

well, that's it for now. More things will follow when I start remembering things

DeepO