Attempting to rid culture from the game

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Keeper of Hell
Actually, the first true democracy in recorded history can be found in ancient Athens, over 1,500 years before The Globe was constructed. If you're looking for something *really* ridiculous, just think about how any government based on the direct representation of all its citizens could possibly be viable in a nation of millions of people.

Well, taken wordly, you are right, of course. However, the Democracy as depicted in Civ3 (most probably the indirect democracy as seen in most countries in the current real world) is not the democracy of the ancient Athenians (the direct democracy, correct?).

But then, you must know I did not mean my post seriously. I was just picking up things from Civ3 that made no historical sense, but nobody had ever complained about. That neverending coraclian "it's not realistic/historical" argument is driving me crazy sometimes...

[Capt Dizle]

Firaxis has given us one hell of a game.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Firaxis has given us one hell of a game.

I assume you forgot the sarcasm icon?

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by GI Josh
"Garrisons should never vanish.

Razing cities must be drastically curtailed.

Borders should never flip over garrisoned fortresses, resources, improvements, or colonies. "

Coracle, these comments of yours from another thread are actually well-taken. If you limited yourself to discrete observations such as these, especially when coupled with how the *mechanics* should be changed, and you'd be far more persuasive and far less annoying. You're right - garrisons shouldn't just "disappear"; fortresses should have some effect on borders, and so should colonies. Now add some constructive suggestions as to how the mechanics should be changed, without reducing the game to a one-dimensional warmongering game.

There were a lot of helpful suggestions on how flipping might change back when I was regularly reading and posting on this board. There's little value in pasting them into every new thread on an old subject when the powers that be show little interest in modifying it.

IIRC my preferred solution was that during a war situation the occupying power should be warned of a potential uprising and offered the choice of moving his units out of the city immediately, fighting to hold the city using reasonable force (some chance of damage or unit loss, some chance of restoring order) or brutally repressing the revolt (damage, better chance of restoring order, loss of international support).

Uppermost in my mind is that while the countries are at war cities ought to be liberated, not spontaneously free themselves. Military units don't defect en-masse when garrisoning newly defeated towns, nor can civilians march back to the factories and resume building tanks just because the enemy only left a few MP's behind. The civ II partisans and EU peasant revolts that have to fight your military occupation force are both better solutions than the current mysterious vanishing of all military personnel.

[ShuShu]

Lets skip the debate about whether D-Day lasted a year or not, and address NotMyDaddy's task at hand. As I read his input into his own thread, vainly attempting to prevent it from being hijacked, I feel he wants to tone down culture to implement something like the D-Day invasion.

I think all WWII simultations would want to make high use of the culture model. As the AXIS was the aggressor, the conquered cities would require a great deal of attention to prevent them from reverting back to their original owners.

I believe giving the Allies many cultural buildings and the Axis none would serve the purpose. I have never seen a military conquest flip against me. I assume it is because I generally have a large cultural advantage (and building a temple turn 2!).

I believe giving the ALLIES the cultural happiness buildings also serves well as the ALLIES were able to wage the war as Democracies or Republics while the AXIS needed to convert same to Despotism or Monarchy to do so. Russia of course is the exception, so if it is not just AXIS/ALLIES, then the Russians don't get the religious buildings either.

[Jeph]

My thoughts on culture flipping. It is NEVER a problem unless I do one of three things.

1.) you are a warmongering A**hole that is taking cities left and right, if you don't think the people hate you, your stupid!

2) You go way beyond you optimal number of cities, not only is it bad for corruption but ALSO culture flipping, that's why there is an optimal number,
DUH!

3) You leave a war unfinished, i.e. you don't conquer Berlin because you felt bad for little o'l Germany. Leaving cities next to old capitals is a sure fire way to get flipped.

If I watch for these three things while playing I NEVER EVER EVER get flipped.

Also what helps is instead of razing I like to either give the city away, I hate having a million cities or abandon it later to avoid people hating me and CULTURE FLIPPING. Build another city on its spot and there ya go. And no razing.

Sorry if these were discussed earlier, I just don't want to read all 50 posts

[GhengisFarb™]

As to the original post I don't think you can rid culture from the game, at most you should be able to tone it down.

As to previous grumblings about vanishing garrisons, I agree your units shouldn't "go native" and disappear. It would be nice if each "resistor" got to attack your units while they were resisting, simulating the violent protesters trying to sabotage your forces.

[ixnay]

I don't have a problem with culture. If it is possible to add to the editor to let people tone it up or down, then I'm all for that if it will shut up the people who keep complaining over and over again. Oh, and my CoracleBot 6000® (an AI program trained off of Coracle's posts) has this to say:

CoracleBot 6000 said:
Laugh, and the world i am now supposed to take a great deal of time plowing through an arcane, arbitrary, and almost byzantine "formula" devised by soren regarding some entirely artificial and unrealistic concept.

CoracleBot 6000 said:
Yes, and after you install it you will say. "D'oh!!!!", just like i did after i got several hundred dollars worth of fun out of civ 3.

CoracleBot 6000 said:
Culture flipping is incredibly smart.

He still has some bugs to work out...

[Coracle]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
As to the original post I don't think you can rid culture from the game, at most you should be able to tone it down.

As to previous grumblings about vanishing garrisons, I agree your units shouldn't "go native" and disappear. It would be nice if each "resistor" got to attack your units while they were resisting, simulating the violent protesters trying to sabotage your forces.

It is not about "Culture"!!

It is about Culture Flipping borders and cities and the poor, bizarre, and non-historical way this is implemented in the game.

Culture in some form is fine with me, along with economic, political, and military influence.