new government types

sprucemoose3311 · July 23, 2002, 01:37

here are gov types i would put in:

totalitarianism
police state
dictatorship (more corruption, unhappiness, stronger military)

corporate republic: govt is both governing body and money makin business. cant tax people. war weariness is high

NeoStar · July 23, 2002, 05:43

Quote:

corporate republic: govt is both governing body and money makin business. cant tax people. war weariness is high

I toyed with that in my own mod. There isn't a gov in the Modern Age so that's where I put it. Same as democracy except worker rate 200%, no maintainace fees (for heaps of money) but tripled unit costs.

I always won before I got to it

Dictatorship (ie fascism) is what many have wanted but to tell you the truth the game doesn't need it-communism will win you a war.

statusperfect · July 23, 2002, 06:13

Fascism is needed. I think the game needs a war government without communal corruption. Fascism should be like a more effective form of monarchy.

HazieDaVampire · July 23, 2002, 07:04

I think we also need some kind of house of Parliment building, who the hell is going to live in a palace when you have another government type cept Monarchy and Despotism!

Hey, maby we could have a bomb shelter during Anarchy!

NeoStar · July 23, 2002, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
I think we also need some kind of house of Parliment building, who the hell is going to live in a palace when you have another government type cept Monarchy and Despotism!

You blokes have Buckingham even though you're a democracy!

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect
Fascism is needed. I think the game needs a war government without communal corruption. Fascism should be like a more effective form of monarchy.

Eh? Communal corruption isn't all that bad - when you want to conquer (and spread over the globe) it can actually help. Come on, as if you can't dominate on Communism. A monarchy with less corruption hardly warrants another gov-I say it would need something more going for it.

player1 · July 23, 2002, 08:40

I would realy want Despotism to be made stronger, since it is, in fact Dictatorship (remember advisor images in Civ1).

And I DON'T LIKE "government upgrading":

You get despot, then go to feudal monarchy then autocratic monary, then dictatorship...

player1 · July 23, 2002, 08:45

Quote:

Originally posted by sprucemoose3311
here are gov types i would put in:

totalitarianism
police state
dictatorship (more corruption, unhappiness, stronger military)

The play of words.

These are practicly the same thing.

And if there are some differences, they would be so minor and want make any difference in Civ3.

P.S.
As I said, I would rather want better Despotism.

The Civ1 style despotism.

Anyway, every govenment form should be ALWAYS usable.

Q Classic · July 23, 2002, 09:26

police state is too much like practiced communism;

totalitarianism and dictatorship is despotism.

if anything, governments which i think should be in are fascism and fundamentalism.

the big thing about fundamentalism, though, is that it can't be as powerful as it was in civ2-- maybe take away that huge happiness bonus and replace it with a much smaller one or something. keep the science penalty, keep the religious tithing, but also sell off the libraries, universities, and research labs.

lockstep · July 23, 2002, 12:14

Quote:

Originally posted by player1
As I said, I would rather want better Despotism.

The Civ1 style despotism.

Anyway, every govenment form should be ALWAYS usable.

I like the idea that the first government (the one you don't have to research actually) is inferior to all other governments.

If mod-makers ever succed in creating a 'Fascist' government that is balanced, this could be the upgraded Despotism you want.

player1 · July 23, 2002, 12:41

Quote:

Originally posted by lockstep

I like the idea that the first government (the one you don't have to research actually) is inferior to all other governments.

If mod-makers ever succed in creating a 'Fascist' government that is balanced, this could be the upgraded Despotism you want.

The problem is that I don't like concept of govenment upgarding.

Still, yes, despotism should be overall weaker then other govenments. You don't need tech for it.
But it should have some use even in later ages.

Rememebr Civ1 despotism?

I knew some players who used to stay in it for whole game.
(something I wouyld never do)

Maybe giving Despotism a better free unit upkeep then it is now? (something like 4, 8, 16)

Ijuin · July 23, 2002, 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Q Cubed

if anything, governments which i think should be in are fascism and fundamentalism.

the big thing about fundamentalism, though, is that it can't be as powerful as it was in civ2-- maybe take away that huge happiness bonus and replace it with a much smaller one or something. keep the science penalty, keep the religious tithing, but also sell off the libraries, universities, and research labs.

For Fundamentalism I would make happiness improvements give double the content faces and culture, but science improvements would give no culture and only half the science bonus. This would be enough to be significant, but not as severely overbalancing as the zero-unhappiness and 50% research penalty in CivII. Corruption and military support would be the same as in Monarchy.

Any ideas on the characteristics of Fascism in Civ3 terms? I was thinking of giving it both the commerce bonus AND the standard tile penalty (the third unit of anything produced by a tile is lost) to represent that Fascist governments love big business but take resources away from the population.

player1 · July 23, 2002, 14:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Ijuin
Any ideas on the characteristics of Fascism in Civ3 terms? I was thinking of giving it both the commerce bonus AND the standard tile penalty (the third unit of anything produced by a tile is lost) to represent that Fascist governments love big business but take resources away from the population.

I think it's cool idea.

That way Fascism would have better commerce & science then Monarchy, but worse growth and production.

Although penalities won't be that bad, since it that time you get railroads which improve food & production growth.

Odin · July 23, 2002, 17:26

Actually Despotism shouldn't be the default government. Most pre-2300bc cultures were loosely allied city-states, like the Sumerians and the Indus River Civ. Despotism in Civ3 context was invented by Sargon of Akkad who united Sumeria around 2200bc. I have made a City-state gov that is basicaly a republic with the despotism food penalty. I have Despotism avalible with Warrior Code.

hzm · July 25, 2002, 03:56

The main thing seems to be everyone wants more control of what kind of government they have. The answer? Bring back the alpha centarai government system.

Russian Communism=Police State + Socialism

European Socialism=Democracy + Socialism

Chinese Communism=Police State + Free Market (???)

I've probably just show my ignorance but I do not understand why this system wasn't used for civ3.

Propaganda · July 27, 2002, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by hzm
The main thing seems to be everyone wants more control of what kind of government they have. The answer? Bring back the alpha centarai government system.

Russian Communism=Police State + Socialism

European Socialism=Democracy + Socialism

Chinese Communism=Police State + Free Market (???)

I've probably just show my ignorance but I do not understand why this system wasn't used for civ3.

YES, YES, YES, YES AND YES.

I can't emphasize this enough.

I want to HAVE A CHOICE, Firaxis. Please, for the sake of all things living, include an AC Social Engineering-type system, before I go nuts.

Caliban · July 28, 2002, 08:04

Quote:

I want to HAVE A CHOICE, Firaxis. Please, for the sake of all things living, include an AC Social Engineering-type system, before I go nuts.

Great idea, but sounds somewhat difficult to realize.
This would mean a major change in how the game works...

BUT it is not impossible (at least I hope so)! You got my support!
We will rattle our cages until Firaxis gives us Social Egineering!

hzm · July 29, 2002, 02:11

The alpha centaraui options were

"Police State" "Democracy" "Fundamentalism"

"Free Market" "Planned" "Green"

"Power" "Knowledge" "Wealth"

"Cybernetic" "Eudaimonic" "Thought Control"

and an absence of system system.

Could someone suggest options that would be better for a civ game? I really don't know much about governments.

Q Classic · July 29, 2002, 12:30

"values" and "future society" (rows 3, 4) would be thrown out, really. the reason they worked in smac/x is because in smac/x you had factions which could espouse such beliefs; much trickier with civs.

the first two, being "government" and "economics" would remain; although i suppose to make it slightly more interesting, you could possibly have unique abilities selectable? or something else.

Bill9999 · July 29, 2002, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by hzm
The alpha centaraui options were

"Police State" "Democracy" "Fundamentalism"

"Free Market" "Planned" "Green"

"Power" "Knowledge" "Wealth"

"Cybernetic" "Eudaimonic" "Thought Control"

and an absence of system system.

Could someone suggest options that would be better for a civ game? I really don't know much about governments.

I would do this (without tooo much explanantion)

Centralized :: De-Centralized :: Fragmented

Single Leader :: Representative :: Democratic

Free Market :: Planned :: Green

Power :: Knowledge :: Wealth

or something similar, I just thre that up in about 2 mintues, deeper thought would only add better arrangements

dunk · July 29, 2002, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
I think we also need some kind of house of Parliment building, who the hell is going to live in a palace when you have another government type cept Monarchy and Despotism!

Hey, maby we could have a bomb shelter during Anarchy!

The White House in the US is pretty much a palace. Most US states have "Governor's Mansions" which are pretty much palaces. Many other countries have what is called a "Presidential Palace". A palace is simply a government seat.

dunk · July 29, 2002, 13:52

Hmmm.... social engineering for civ.

I would like to see more options as far as governments go as well. More fun. I also liked the cost of changing. No revolutions in SMAC. Just a treasury charge. Seeing as how I will still be in charge of the civ, paying money to change governments makes a little more sense. And I hate anarchy.

I think all of the categories from SMAC could stay, except the future ones. Maybe the values can change every 20-30 turns to reflect changing opinions from the populace, or not change, depending on success and maybe some other factors (perhaps culture of surrounding civs). And if you run a government that goes against the population's values for too long a time (20-30 turns), then a revolution could occur and you could wind up in a different government. For example, if you're running a "planned" economy, and the populace starts to value "Wealth", then a revolution may occur.

Q Classic · July 29, 2002, 14:07

i don't like the inclusion of values for a civ. why? it's mainly i don't see values that can be forced upon a civ. i can understand if the government has them, but the people?

anywho, these are my suggestions.

Centralized - Federative - Decentralized
Single Leadership - Representative Leadership - Democratic
Restrictive Rights - Moderate Rights - Free Rights
Planned - Green - Free Market

Caliban · July 29, 2002, 14:07

Well, here are my suggestions:

POLITICAL SYSTEM:
None (i.e. Despotism)
Monarchy (made available by: Monarchy)
Democracy (Republic)
Police State (Nationalism?? Communism??)

ECONOMICAL SYSTEM:
None
Free Market (Economics)
Planned (Communism)
Modern (Miniaturization -- worker rate +50%; shield production bonus for each city (just like the „industrious“ civ special ability); pollution doubled for each city; improvements that fight pollution become useless)

RELIGIOUS SYSTEM
None
Fundamentalist (Monotheism)
Fascist (Nationalism)
Secular (Scientific Method)

I’m still thinking about what boni the different options could provide...
Maybe somebody can help me?

hzm · July 30, 2002, 01:47

I don't really get your modern economic system. It sounds like a more drastic version of the free market system, unless you thought that should be different from the one in AC?

Jethro83 · July 30, 2002, 03:45

As much as I'd like to also see a SMAC style social engineering system implemented in Civ III, I seriously doubt that it will be implemented.

As such, more government options would definitely be welcomed. Of course, it is possible to add them yourself in Civ3Edit. As such I won't be disappointed if Firaxis don't bring out more governments.

I'd be happy enough to see a greater amount of options when determining effects of the governments you can create with Civ3Edit.

Caliban · July 30, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by hzm
I don't really get your modern economic system. It sounds like a more drastic version of the free market system, unless you thought that should be different from the one in AC?

I think this system clearly reflects modern 21st century politics: Who cares about ecology and saving the planet (Kyoto etc.)?

So I thought the player should also be given this option...

Oerdin · July 30, 2002, 20:24

More government types would greatly add to my enjoyment of the game. I suggest Facism, Theocracy, Ecotopia, and Corporate Republic.

Kramerman · July 30, 2002, 23:39

Ive said this idea ealier, but I thnk you should be able to choose your government, and then choose you economic system. IOW, you could choose to have a democratic communism, or socialistic Monarchy. I really dont like how civ iii, as is, has communism as a government. Oh well. I also like Caliban's religeous system idea.

Dimorier Maximus · July 31, 2002, 02:52

I think social engineering is Civ4 stuff, but what the heck, I'll throw out my ideas for it:

Authoritarian Structure:
Chieftan (no tech required)
Imperial (available with Monarchy tech)
Representative (available with Republic tech)
Democratic (available with Democracy tech)

Economic Structure:
Primitive (no tech required)
Free Market (available with Economics tech)
Command (same as planned, available with Communism tech)
Green (available with Recycling tech)

Religious Structure:
Ancestral (no tech required)
Polytheistic (available with Polytheism tech)
Monotheistic (available with Monotheism tech)
Secular (available with Scientific Method tech)

City Structure:
Tribal (no tech required)
Colonial (available with Magnetism tech)
Federation (available with Democracy tech)
Centralized (available with Monarchy tech)

All these different choices would have their ups and downs, but you would most likely want to get out of the default choices ASAP.

For example, Green would be great for cutting down on pollution, but it would suck for your productivity and commerce. Democratic would be great for a peaceful, scientific, cultural civilization, but beware of the war weariness if you pick a fight. Free Market would work wonders for your commerce, but your happiness would take a hit. Monotheism would be good for happiness, but it would hurt your science output.

As far as Civ3 goes, I think the only governments missing are Theocracy and Fascism. I plan on submitting them to Firaxis for inclusion in Play the World.

Now I just need to go to the editor and make them.

Caliban · July 31, 2002, 12:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus
Representative (available with Republic tech)
Democratic (available with Democracy tech)

I don't see any SIGNIFICANT difference between those options...