Corruption FAQ - Page 2

Beeblbrox · August 2, 2002, 07:07

alexman:
'AI default difficulty level' - is that some drop down somewhere, or do you mean that the AI just gets the players Regent difficulty settings? (with the AI bonuses in the Difficulties tab as well ofc)

[Edit] Found the drop down you mean on General Tab :-)

If thats the case then I think I can safely say that the AI does use the 1000% as well, as I had changed all the difficulty settings OCN% to 1000 - and in my current Monarch game the AI Indian civ had well over 60 cities even though the OCN was 32 - and all the AI's generally had more than 32 yet were still planting cities everytime there was an opportunity

alexman · August 2, 2002, 11:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Beeblbrox
...in my current Monarch game the AI Indian civ had well over 60 cities even though the OCN was 32 - and all the AI's generally had more than 32 yet were still planting cities everytime there was an opportunity

Although this is not conclusive evidence (the rank of all 60 cities can be under the modified OCN, if the OCN is 32), it doesn't sound good. If the AI is expanding to make use of the 1000% increase in OCN, there is no difference between your "trick" and just increasing the OCN itself. To find out for sure, you need to play on a huge map with just one AI.

lockstep · August 2, 2002, 15:17

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Your choice of government affects distance corruption. Distance for Monarchy and Republic corruption calculations is two thirds what it is for Despotism.

So 'problematic' and 'nuisance' corruption is the same? I can't prove it at the moment, but always noticed a small overall decrease in corruption when switching to Republic instead of Monarchy in test games.

(Test setting: No marketplaces/banks, 100% tax, count base commerce in the city window, calculate corruption as percentage of base commerce.)

alexman · August 2, 2002, 15:25

Actually, I have noticed it too, but it's very small and not always present. Almost like rounding up instead of rounding down.

I'm fairly certain that there is no difference in distance corruption. However, there is a chance that government affects the OCN in some very small way, but I didn't do enough testing to say for sure.

ALPHA WOLF 64 · August 2, 2002, 15:44

thanks for the info.

lockstep · August 2, 2002, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Actually, I have noticed it too, but it's very small and not always present. Almost like rounding up instead of rounding down.

Conclusion: The 'nuisance' corruption level is pointless at the moment.

(Mod-makers might as well change Republic to 'problematic' corruption - more elegant, and strengtens Democracy slightly vs. Republic.)

Zylka · August 4, 2002, 02:06

This has been done so often, yet every time amazes me the same. Great work

Theseus · August 4, 2002, 12:45

alexman, any thoughts on the 'direction' of distance corruption?

As maps are grids tilted 45 degrees, does it make any difference in distance corruption when considering N/E/S/W versus NE/SE/SW/NW?

LotC · August 4, 2002, 16:15

It's been my experience that corruption in a city drops once its cultural borders become connected with the main empire. I could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

alexman · August 5, 2002, 10:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
As maps are grids tilted 45 degrees, does it make any difference in distance corruption when considering N/E/S/W versus NE/SE/SW/NW?

Good question, and the answer is yes. Corruption calculations use real geometry, not unit movement points, to get distance. So, for corruption purposes, going ten tiles Northwest is the same as going 7 tiles North. (10/sqrt(2)).

alexman · August 5, 2002, 10:19

Quote:

Originally posted by LotC
It's been my experience that corruption in a city drops once its cultural borders become connected with the main empire.

What you have noticed, is the 15% decrease in corruption when your city becomes connected to the main empire. This doesn't have to do with cultural borders, but with the presence of a trade route from the city to the capital (through a road, harbor, or airport).

DeepO · August 5, 2002, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Corruption calculations use real geometry, not unit movement points, to get distance. So, for corruption purposes, going ten tiles Northwest is the same as going 7 tiles North. (10/sqrt(2)).

Just some nit-picking: both geometries are 'real', one is called Eucledian, while the other is Norm-1 (or New York) distance. But this completely aside, your explanation was clear to anyone, I think

DeepO

Mattaba · August 25, 2002, 14:32

If I get it, does it mean that courthouses and police stations decrease the corruption in a city caused by the OCN with 25%?
How it affects distance corruption, I understand.

alexman · August 26, 2002, 10:13

No, courthouses don't decrease number-of-cities corruption by 25%. They increase the OCN itself by 25%for that city. That causes a decrease in number-of-cities corruption that depends on the number of cities you already have.

If the rank of the city is above the modified OCN before and after the courthouse, the number-of-cities corruption decreases by 20%.
If the rank of the city is below the modified OCN before and after the courthouse, the number-of-cities corruption decreases by 60%.
If the courthouse causes the city to have a rank below the OCN whereas without the courthouse it was above the OCN, you get an even higher reduction in corruption.

Mattaba · August 27, 2002, 05:58

So one courthouse can affect your entire empire even when not under communism?

BigFurryMonster · August 27, 2002, 06:55

Alexman, I think you should start using two different variables for the OCN (per empire) and the 'modified OCN' (per city).

Sovereign · August 27, 2002, 08:24

Hi!

I've been wondering a lot about corruption myself.

I'm playing India on a Huge / Gigantic map, and I conquered Russia. Russia is the area north of the orange "dot" on the northern peninsula.

There are 4 other civ's present elsewhere in the world. America, China, England, and Japan.

But I have a "Panagea" all to myself now. Haven't explored the rest of the world yet, not until I get battleships and carriers and whatnot.

I marked 3 important cities in the mini-map I included. Keep in mind, this is a real "normal" game, not scenario or Editor.

I'd like to know if I did this correctly, to minimize corruption on this gigantic map. I read this FAQ, and I wonder if these "palace" placements is the best I can do, considering the Distance Corruption "DC" and City Corruption "CC".

One more thing. My current government is a Democracy.

All right. Here's my map "keys".

Orange "dot" = New capital.
Dark Orange / Light Brown "dot" = City with Forbidden Palace.
Blue "dot" = Old capital of Delhi.

Sovereign · August 27, 2002, 08:36

Corruption drives me nuts when I'm trying to build gigantic empires like the one in that map.

I guess I'm still hung up on Civ 2's system of corruption. I've always wondered why they didn't include Fundamentalism or added a couple other new government like Facism or some kind of futurstic government like Technocracy with corruption benefits or whatnot.

I feel stupid rambling on about these things, and I'm pretty sure all these things have been discussed like a zillion times already.

I guess what I'm trying to say and ask is... I'd like any tips or ideas how to manage corruption in giant empires. Also, I'm at a loss what to do if I manage to build a sizeable empire, then use both palaces to keep corruption low... then find other civ's and invade them. Then I can't get anything built in the conquered lands.

Nothing's worse than waiting 80 turns to build a courhouse, or 400 turns to build a new palace, and no heroes or leaders available.

But hey, Civ 3's corruption is a new "curve ball" that forces me to re-evaluate my empire building strategies, from old games like Civilization 1 and 2, Master of orion 1 and 2, Age of Empires, Empire Earth, etc.

Makes me face the reality of an difficult task controlling an empire the size of Asia, Europe, and Africa combined.

Again, I appreciate any feedback or ideas.

BigFurryMonster · August 27, 2002, 08:37

It depends on the relative size of the Russian cities compared to the Indian cities. Another interesting question: should you fill up the area between India and Russia with cities ..?

alexman · August 27, 2002, 08:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Mattaba
So one courthouse can affect your entire empire even when not under communism?

No, the courthouses change the OCN only for the city they are in. Even in Communism. BigFurryMonster is right: I should have called the modified OCN for each city something else. See his question in the third post in this thread, which is related to yours.

alexman · August 27, 2002, 09:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovereign
Again, I appreciate any feedback or ideas.

From what I understand, you increased the map size without increasing the OCN. This forces you to have empires of the size of the old, smaller map size, even if there is room to expand.

As for the placement of your Palace/FP, what you show in your screenshot is OK if you plan to fill up the empty space. If you don't, then I would have placed the FP a bit farther to the south so there is no overlap.

In general, the Civ3 corruption system encourages the player to have an efficient core of cities that maintains the rest of the empire. Don't worry if all your cities are not efficient. The core, which can be 2-4 times the empire's OCN, depending on your Palace/FP placement, will generate enough income and production to either conquer the entire world, or launch.

Sovereign · August 27, 2002, 09:17

Actually, I conquered Russia.

Most "Russian" cities are size 6+.

There's a Giga-Jungle the size of Asia! between the Russia sector and the India sector.

The southern area, where all my cities are, are on plains, and have plenty of mountains and hills. Then the Giga-Jungle, running thru the center of the Panagea, with three mountain chains running thru it. Then the Russian sector is mostly "barren" with orange plains, hills, and desert. Then at the very north area where the 3 or 4 northern Russian cities are, there's a lot of grassland.

I put my Forbidden palace in the city I think would be at the "center" of the southern area, to get maximum production out of the 3 mountain chains, then the "Palace" near Russia to get production out of the Giga-Jungle, Northern parts of the 3 mountain chains, and the tons of hills.

There could be 1, 2, or 3 more contients or Panagea's out there in the "black" that I haven't explored yet. Should I just keep playing the game, or should I re-load the game to before I build both palaces, and put one in the exact center of my Panagea? Then save the other for the other contients or Panagea's that may be out there?

I'm using Civilization Patch 1.07.

Sovereign · August 27, 2002, 09:19

I forgot to add...

My Normal Game settings:

Biggest map

Medium Contient Setting

Wet Climate

Warm Tempature

4 Billion year old Earth

I didn't use any editors or scenario stuff. I was just lucky to get this awesome map when I went thru the standard "New Game" procedure.

alexman · August 27, 2002, 09:27

I suggest getting the latest patch. Corruption has been toned down, and the "huge" map size is smaller since 1.07.

Sovereign · August 27, 2002, 10:20

Hmm.

If I get the new 1.29 patch, will my current game be screwed when the map gets cut in size?

Also, I've been hearing a lot of bugs about 1.29.

Please let me know!

Jaybe · August 27, 2002, 11:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovereign
...
Also, I've been hearing a lot of bugs about 1.29.
...

If you read all the posts, there are always bugs with any patch!
If your system is 'relatively' clean, you'll have no problem. If your system a jumbled mess (duh, it's Windows, right?)* then something could go wrong and a reinstall may be required.

*Using Windows XP machine, and all I use it for is Civ3. I have had no problems since original release date. Never had a problem with my Mac OS games, either.

sabrewolf · August 27, 2002, 11:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovereign
Hmm.

If I get the new 1.29 patch, will my current game be screwed when the map gets cut in size?

Also, I've been hearing a lot of bugs about 1.29.

Please let me know!

there's far less bugs in 1.29f... installation is definetly recommended (except if you want to play democracy games or some games of the month)

your current game won't be affected by the patch. all rules will be the same. only a new game has the new rules (what i'd recommend)

Sovereign · August 28, 2002, 02:34

Hmm...

I have version 1.07.

Also, I have Windows ME, and I doubt I've had any problems with patch 1.07 so far for the past few months.

I guess I'm just worried about my "best" or excellent games possibly getting screwed up, like map cut-off, errors when existing codes and AI stuff are replaced by the new 1.29 AI, etc.

A guy can't help but worry when he's having one of the best Civ3 games so far, like the one I'm having now!

alexman · December 30, 2002, 21:15

Firaxis, please note: Contrary to what you have mentioned in chats and on these forums, the Forbidden Palace does not double the optimal number of cities in Communism. It increases it by a mere 25%.

This is very unfair to Communism, as compared to Monarchy, even with a terribly placed Forbidden Palace.

Pyrodrew · December 31, 2002, 00:32

Quote:

I guess what I'm trying to say and ask is... I'd like any tips or ideas how to manage corruption in giant empires.

Quote:

Don't worry if all your cities are not efficient.

Alexman is right here. It simply is not worth it, unlike core cities. However, use heavily corrupt cities for all they are worth... territory (library or temple) points & happy people (marketplace & temple) points. Emphasize food/growth (aqueduct & maybe hospital).

As mentioned, FP & Palace location are the most potent. WLT*D can be relatively easy to set up to help. Other methods I find are too time-consuming with short-term results (plant & cut trees) or expensive (rushing tons of buildings for 1-3 more shields). That aside, don't raze/abandon all enemy cities. Taking over a city with a pre-built courthouse, police station, marketplace, factory, or whatever can help a lot. If you want to increase your production/commerce look to rush building & tile adjusting in your core cities, then work slowly outwards to the... 'wasteland cities'.