Culture Flipping:

miccofl · July 23, 2002, 20:12

Not looking to start another discussion here, I just thought that with all the discussion on the subject it might be interesting to get a head count.

zulu9812 · July 23, 2002, 20:25

I'm taking "Duh-huh!" to mean "Of course I like culture flipping; what are you, stupid?"

Dom Pedro II · July 23, 2002, 20:35

I think "Duh-huh" means "Duh, I'm braindead..."

It's probably the equivalent of "bananas".

Anyway, I voted for the option to turn it off. At the very least, I think the programmers should reevaluate it and make culture-flipping (due to invasions) harder to happen... i.e. it should require more civil disorder among the population, more on the culture of the civilization, and much much less on randomness.

miccofl · July 23, 2002, 20:50

It’s amazing how different cultures can flip a nonsense word around – life imitates game.

Coracle · July 23, 2002, 21:03

Yea, I like it.

I just love it when in the Ancient era I conquer a town of only '1', have NINE military units in it, and the next turn it "Flips" and my entire garrison vanishes without a trace.

What a load of crazy crap.

miccofl · July 23, 2002, 21:12

Less than an hour, I’m impressed!

Cyclotron · July 23, 2002, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by miccofl
Not looking to start another discussion here

Thanks for reading the first post in the thread so thouroughly, Coracle.

Although, the above quote probably wasn't a reasonable expectation anyway.

DeepO · July 23, 2002, 22:12

It might not be completely as intended, but as I did not found a unbiased positive poll, I'm taking the "We are the Borg, you will be assimilated" thing as "I like it a lot, and can use it to capture cities without a fight". Okay, the Borg aren't really peaceful, but at least you will be assimilated

DeepO

ACooper · July 23, 2002, 22:18

It's like everything else - you just got to know how to use it.

DeepO · July 23, 2002, 22:19

Oh, Coracle, post a save where that happened. In order to have a flip with 9 units as opposed to 1 citizen+foreign tile, you must have less then 1/4.5 times the culture of the other guy. Build some temples, for crying out loud. Or do try to manage your citizens out of civil disorder, I explained to you many times that that doubled the chances.

Sorry, this was not a discussion, just some help to my dear (friend)

DeepO

The Pioneer · July 24, 2002, 01:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Anyway, I voted for the option to turn it off. At the very least, I think the programmers should reevaluate it and make culture-flipping (due to invasions) harder to happen... i.e. it should require more civil disorder among the population, more on the culture of the civilization, and much much less on randomness.

Last Friday on the live chat the Firaxians said that it's a game feature and nothing has/will be done about it. It has been a controversial feature from the beginning that's for sure, I am not to fond about it but I work around it.

To Coracle:

Don't you get tired of repeating yourself? What's the point?

So long...

whosurdaddy · July 24, 2002, 02:16

Down with culture flipping. I don't get how it is not considered an act of war to annex large swaths of another nations territory using "cultural" means.

I consider culture flipping to be such a disgusting concept that even when AI cities flip to me, I TURN THEM DOWN.

Just cause the programmers (a very talented group) decided to put this feature in the game, does that automatically mean it is good, and that I should just play with this feature and love it no matter what?
As i've said several times, I could design the game to have pink elephants that randomly appear in the game that can destroy whole cities, and sure ... I could prolly learn how to play the game and deal with these pink elephants so that they dont destroy my civ, but that doesnt mean having pink elephants in the game is fun or that it even makes any sense.

If the problem is, that there needs to be more peaceful ways of attaining victory in the game, then that is fine, there are other ways to do it besides the silly idea of whole cities suddenly flipping sides.

For goodness sakes, would it kill you guys if it became a slider where we could control the rate of this occurence in our games. ISNT THIS WHY WE HAVE A RULES EDITOR, CAUSE SOME LIKE TO PLAY USING DIFFERENT RULES THAN OTHERS??? It doesnt mean we dont know how to play the game .....

vondrack · July 24, 2002, 02:32

Quote:

Originally posted by DeepO
It might not be completely as intended, but as I did not found a unbiased positive poll, I'm taking the "We are the Borg, you will be assimilated" thing as "I like it a lot, and can use it to capture cities without a fight". Okay, the Borg aren't really peaceful, but at least you will be assimilated

Same for me!

zulu9812 · July 24, 2002, 03:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
I think "Duh-huh" means "Duh, I'm braindead..."

It's probably the equivalent of "bananas".

Damn, I should have picked "We Are The Borg". I just went for the opposite end of the scale from 'I hate it'. I don't suppose a mod could amend my vote? I wish ppl wouldn't put in vague options when you aren't sure what they mean.

Jon Shafer · July 24, 2002, 04:10

I think it's a neat idea, but could be better implimented.
I think the 'randomness' is basically mommy shaking her finger at you saying "you'd better not invade your neighbors or else!"

I think that Firaxis caught a bit of the 'kill-the-conquest' fever after the blitzkriegs of Civ 2.

Harovan · July 24, 2002, 04:20

Quote:

Originally posted by miccofl
Less than an hour, I’m impressed!

Well, Coracle runs a perl script in the background, that constantly scans the 'Poly forums for the word "flipping" and rings, when it found it. The fact, that he needed a full hour for his post, shows only that he must have been absent.

On topic: For me, it's "a part of the game" (vote). I like the idea, but don't like its implementation. Emigration should be implemented by a loss of population in the border city, and only cities of size 1 should be allowed to flip, if at all. Anyway, I can live with it and can handle it, but I don't like it much.

vondrack · July 24, 2002, 05:22

Quote:

Originally posted by whosurdaddy
Just cause the programmers (a very talented group) decided to put this feature in the game, does that automatically mean it is good, and that I should just play with this feature and love it no matter what?
As i've said several times, I could design the game to have pink elephants that randomly appear in the game that can destroy whole cities, and sure ... I could prolly learn how to play the game and deal with these pink elephants so that they dont destroy my civ, but that doesnt mean having pink elephants in the game is fun or that it even makes any sense.

Ah, the pink elephants thingy again... seems to be spreading over... the third thread enjoying them...

Look, the pink elephants would be considered a stupidity by everyone, while flipping is hated by not so many (although considered suboptimal implementation by many). I did my best to summarize reasons for not taking the flips out of the game in another pinky elephant thread - see my answer there: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...84#post1149684

The reason for opposing your wish to have it as a slider is that the majority would like to see Firaxis doing different things that creating a flipping slider for you and Coracle. For me, reimplementing the flips in a bit different way would be MUCH better than creating a slider. Being a programmer myself I know how risky it is to change the code that is working - you are very likely to introduce bugs that were not there before... Therefore, I would like to see Firaxis to focus on things that are really worth their efforts, rather then having them hotfixing flipping sliders...

Coracle · July 24, 2002, 05:36

Yesterday I lost NINE military units (including six full strength veteran legionaries) when a town of '1' just across my former border flipped. They vanished into thin air.

The game ended at that point as I just lost all my offensive units and almost half my military. Three more hours wasted.

I have seen reports of a town of '2' Flipping even with 17 military in it.

Why does this happen? Some idiotic and arbitrary "formula" Soren dreamed up. Knowing Civ 3, there is also probably in part another anti-human AI cheat involved..

I will not waste my time spending hours on a game only to see half my military magically disappear in one of these ridiculous flips. Nor will I accept borders flipping over my strategic resources at which point I am expected to meekly walk away from them.

You like bullbleep? Enjoy yourselves. It is unacceptable to me on many levels.

"Part of the game"? Whatever crap Soren serves up is OK, huh? No sale. If a realtor sold me a house with termites I wouldn't say "it's part of the house". It is a BUG; even if Soren planned for it it is a bug because it screws up the game mechanics, is the opposite of realism, and is intenesely irritating.

I went into Editor, the Culture section, and changed every resistance rating down to nothing. Perhaps that will have an effect on this nonsense. We shall see. If not, EU2 here I come.

vondrack · July 24, 2002, 05:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Yesterday I lost NINE military units (including six full strength veteran legionaries) when a town of '1' just across my former border flipped. They vanished into thin air.

The game ended at that point as I just lost all my offensive units and almost half my military. Three more hours wasted.

I have seen reports of a town of '2' Flipping even with 17 military in it.

hi

would you post a save?

have a nice day

Coracle · July 24, 2002, 05:56

Post a save?

Plenty of examples have been posted on CFF of such in the past. A fellow named "Lt Killer M" posted a similar example, and here is the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=26738

All I have left are screenshots.

Here is the garrison:

Coracle · July 24, 2002, 06:02

Next turn, POOF! Gone. Game over.

It is such a load of bullbleep.

Harovan · July 24, 2002, 07:33

Well, this probably has happened to many of us and it is no wonder, because the Egyptian capital is just 4 tiles away. Everybody knows, that the cultural influence, and thus the probability of flipping, is increased, the less the distance to the other capital is.

So garrisoning Giza with 8 units and a catapult (which doesn't count) is nonsense in this situation. Better would be, to send 7 units and the catapult and take Thebes. If Giza flips, oh well, just retake it.

DeepO · July 24, 2002, 08:40

Coracle, stop using faulty examples. I'm glad you posted the screenshots: you have not 1, but 1 citizen+7 foreign tiles in there. Further did you just captured that city, and was the citizens still resisting? that counts double... 9 already. Against 8 units of your own it would still be a slim chance, so I can only guess you have very little culture as opposed to the Egyptians. If I can make the guess that her culture is twice yours, you would need 36 units to fully counter the flip chances, putting 8 in is just stupid. Don't blame it on the game, it is your own fault you have lost that force.

Of course it would have flipped, with the city so close to her capital, that would be an 8% chance or so (still guessing at twice the culture, it can become much worse when your culture is worse). With these rates, you can expect that city to flip in just a few turns...

DeepO

miccofl · July 24, 2002, 09:54

Quote:

Originally posted by zulu9812
Damn, I should have picked "We Are The Borg". I just went for the opposite end of the scale from 'I hate it'. I don't suppose a mod could amend my vote? I wish ppl wouldn't put in vague options when you aren't sure what they mean.

Actually, if you listen to the radio in the morning here in the American south it means exactly that. Life is full of vague options - actually so is our game.

For the record I chose 3, while flipping an entire culture can be fun for a while, it does get old but it does prove one point. “The naive foolishly wishing for peace is the surest way to encourage an aggressor.” General Sline - Spies Like Us

Marquis de Sodaq · July 24, 2002, 11:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Yea, I like it.

I just love it when in the Ancient era I conquer a town of only '1', have NINE military units in it, and the next turn it "Flips" and my entire garrison vanishes without a trace.

What a load of crazy crap.

Ah, so you are Zouave! Welcome to my ignore list...

Willem · July 24, 2002, 12:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq

Ah, so you are Zouave! Welcome to my ignore list...

Took you long enough to add him!

MosesPresley · July 24, 2002, 13:25

BP

Venger · July 25, 2002, 00:42

Quote:

Originally posted by DeepO
Coracle, stop using faulty examples.

What is faulty about it? Nothing. Hell, it HAPPENED in the middle east, didn't see Gaza returned because of culture did you?

Quote:

I'm glad you posted the screenshots: you have not 1, but 1 citizen+7 foreign tiles in there. Further did you just captured that city, and was the citizens still resisting? that counts double... 9 already. Against 8 units of your own it would still be a slim chance, so I can only guess you have very little culture as opposed to the Egyptians. If I can make the guess that her culture is twice yours, you would need 36 units to fully counter the flip chances, putting 8 in is just stupid. Don't blame it on the game, it is your own fault you have lost that force.

What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY. God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game? If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions. At what point did they commandeer your common sense?

Quote:

Of course it would have flipped, with the city so close to her capital, that would be an 8% chance or so (still guessing at twice the culture, it can become much worse when your culture is worse). With these rates, you can expect that city to flip in just a few turns...

How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL?

I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow. Culture flipping is unrealistic, unfun, and unreasonable. If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free. Enough freaking said.

Venger

Nubclear · July 25, 2002, 01:10

It's late here, so forgive any atrocities I may commit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger

What is faulty about it? Nothing. Hell, it HAPPENED in the middle east, didn't see Gaza returned because of culture did you?

But then again, a lot of Israel (or rightfully Palestine) is flipping back to Palestine because they are two different cultures.

Quote:

What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY. God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game? If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions. At what point did they commandeer your common sense?

Just because you can take something doesnt mean you can hold it.

Quote:

How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL?

I would agree to that. Would you likewise agree to the chance of culture flipping rising as the city size increases?

Quote:

I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow. Culture flipping is unrealistic, unfun, and unreasonable. If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free. Enough freaking said.

If you dont like the game, and you dont like the people who do like the game, then it all begs one question: Why are you here in the Civilization III forums at all?

Venger · July 25, 2002, 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
But then again, a lot of Israel (or rightfully Palestine) is flipping back to Palestine because they are two different cultures.

Palestine? Tell me, who has dibs on the area? Go back far enough and you can have 20 different ethnic groups claim it.

And no, there is no 'culture flip' in Israel/Palestine. The territory of the Holy Land is held by one thing and one thing alone - brute force.

Quote:

Just because you can take something doesnt mean you can hold it.

My failure to hold it should be a result of proactive actions by the enemy, not a passive delay as 'culture' works it's magic.

Quote:

I would agree to that. Would you likewise agree to the chance of culture flipping rising as the city size increases?

No. Culture flipping is STUPID. It's ahistorical and anathema to common sense. I would suggest the issue of occupying armies has about 100 better forms of resolution before flipping. Flipping is nonsensical.

Quote:

If you dont like the game, and you dont like the people who do like the game, then it all begs one question: Why are you here in the Civilization III forums at all?

Well Mr. JustGotHereInMay, I'm here because I PAID MONEY FOR THE GAME, and I'm exercising my right to free speech, something someone using the USSR as their avatar or point of origin likely knows precious little about. Were you looking for the Civilization III - Cheerleading section?

Venger