View Poll Results: My opinion of culture flipping is:
It sucks! Read my scripts! 6 4.08%
It’s not a game feature I like. It’s just not the way I like to play the game. I wish there were a way to turn it off at start-up. 14 9.52%
It’s part of the game. You take what it gives you and then work with it, deal with it or get over it. 70 47.62%
I think it is awesome. It brings out the best of the espionage feature and demonstrates unequivocally that if you have enough money, you can buy just about anything. 27 18.37%
We are the Borg – you will be assimilated. 26 17.69%
Duh-huh?! 4 2.72%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old July 25, 2002, 01:28   #31
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Venger, simply because we support a game feature you do not does not make Tassadar, myself, or any other person "cheerleaders" or "fanboys," and it most certainly does not give you the right to insult us on the basis of our opinions.
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Old July 25, 2002, 01:34   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venger


Palestine? Tell me, who has dibs on the area? Go back far enough and you can have 20 different ethnic groups claim it.

And no, there is no 'culture flip' in Israel/Palestine. The territory of the Holy Land is held by one thing and one thing alone - brute force.
And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip".

Quote:
No. Culture flipping is STUPID. It's ahistorical and anathema to common sense. I would suggest the issue of occupying armies has about 100 better forms of resolution before flipping. Flipping is nonsensical.
THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all.

Quote:
Well Mr. JustGotHereInMay,
What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement.

Quote:
I'm here because I PAID MONEY FOR THE GAME, and I'm exercising my right to free speech
But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff. So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like.

Quote:
something someone using the USSR as their avatar or point of origin likely knows precious little about.
What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it.

But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad.

Quote:
Were you looking for the Civilization III - Cheerleading section?
No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all.

Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on.

I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison. But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it.

But thats just me.
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Old July 25, 2002, 01:38   #33
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Originally posted by cyclotron7
Venger, simply because we support a game feature you do not does not make Tassadar, myself, or any other person "cheerleaders" or "fanboys," and it most certainly does not give you the right to insult us on the basis of our opinions.
No, you don't get to pull that crap, let's be REAL clear where the 'who's opinion doesn't belong' nonsense started, and that was with Mr. "WhyAreYouHere".

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Old July 25, 2002, 01:44   #34
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I like culture flipping. The few times it has happened to me, I was mostly expecting it and it made sense.
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Old July 25, 2002, 01:51   #35
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Originally posted by Tassadar5000

And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip".
No, they are using bombs and terror to attempt to affect a political change. Their sheer will to have the Israeli's gone matters not one whit. Your example is poor, your support ineffectual. The West Bank will no more flip than any city in history. Move along.

Quote:
THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all.
For a long time I didn't. See, before you showed up, there were a great number of discussions on this and many other topics related to the game. It didn't just all start when you showed up.

Quote:
What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement.
Bring an argument to the table that isn't based on 'so don't play it'. Because that's all you've got in your limp sack. I've addressed the point in the topic, Johnny Come Lately.

Quote:
But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff.
Boy they grow em big and dumb out on the farm huh? Murder Jeff? The rhetorical nonsense is ridiculous!

Quote:
So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like.
I am not wasting my time here (in general). Why do you waste your time here when you can be playing that great game? See, stupid isn't it...

Either discuss the point at hand, or let the door smack your ass on the way out. Let's leave the 'why are you here' crap out of it.

Quote:
What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it.
Then you should perhaps disassociate yourself with one of the most brutal regimes ever to stride the earth. Not alot of people here using the Third Reich as their calling card either, and with good cause...

Quote:
But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad.
An attempt at an aside. Using the USSR as your calling card makes you look bad pal.

Quote:
No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all.
Harassing people? What a baby. Do you need a diaper change? Harassing people who DO like it? Read the topic if you are even semi-fluent in English, the topic is 'culture flipping', and the content within is a discussion, pro and con. Nobody is harassing anyone, unless you count 'why are you here', which is STILL all you've brough to the table. Care to make a point soon?

Quote:
Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on.
How many sheep are there in your flock? You wouldn't say anything about it? Well, that's where you and I differ, I will give my feedback, good or bad, in the community. If you've come here to give each other hugs and sing Kumbaya, you are going to be disappointed. Some people like the game more than others, some like certain features more than others, and some people will *GASP* dare speak their mind negatively on aspects they don't like.

Quote:
I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison.
Holy cow! You addressed the point! A stride taken forward...

Quote:
But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it.
Then enjoy being one of the many fish battered on the rocks by the tides. Me, I'll struggle against the tide looking for a better outcome.

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But thats just me.
Guess so.

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Old July 25, 2002, 02:04   #36
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*Sigh* I replied to nearly half of his post when I realized: I wont be able to change his mind. It's locked in its current state and I'm simply talking to a rock. So talking to him is completly POINTLESS, a waste of my time, and its spamming up the threads.

Anyway......

I personally like culture flipping. I usually build up my culture quite a bit and usually gain a few cities. Helps during war and peace. So IMO, culture flipping is one of the best game features.

But thats just my opinion
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Old July 25, 2002, 02:07   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venger


What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY.
What's your point? Is there a rule somewhere that a "SIZE ONE CITY" must be unflippable if garrisoned with x or y or z units? Did the Firaxis game designers violate this rule? I'm outraged.

Quote:
God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game?
Relevance? I thought we were talking about Civ III.

Quote:
If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions.
Your opinion. I don't agree.

Quote:
At what point did they commandeer your common sense?
What?!? If you read through DeepO's post (the guy you're quoting), you'll see that the entire post has to do with game functions -- the algorithms that produce results within the game parameters. You have somehow morphed DeepO's explanation of the how the algoritm worked into your own straw man in an attempt to display your own "superior" common sense.



Quote:
How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL?
Interesting idea. Not the way the game works.

Quote:
I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow.
Ah. Now I see. If we don't share your view then we're dimbulbs.

Quote:
Culture flipping is unrealistic,
Another straw man. The game designers freely admit to taking widespread latitude with "realism" in favor of an entertaining game - their view as to what is entertaining - which will obviously not be shared by the entire gaming public.

Quote:
unfun,
Your opinion. I don't agree.

Quote:
and unreasonable.
Your opinion. I don't agree.

Quote:
If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free.
But they don't get it back for free. They get it back in exchange for the many shields that they've invested in building cultural improvements while the conquerers were spending shields on military units. Shields on military or shields on culture - either way, each side to the conflict is making an investment and hoping for a return.

Quote:
Enough freaking said.
Yes. Again if someone doesn't agree with you then there's not much of a point on continuing the discussion.

And your lashing back at Tassadar in relation to his "membership date" is not the first instance I've seen from you recently -- you seem to hold the curious view that the fact that you registered with Apolyton some time ago lends strength to your arguments.

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Old July 25, 2002, 02:54   #38
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I voted for that it is a part of the game; interestingly 28 out of 57 current votes are for that and only 2 (I assume corcle and venger) want to be ride of culture flipping all together. I like the idea of culture having an effect on the game but the current system leaves something to be desired.

A better way to work it would be to allow people immigraiting to culturally & economicly superior countries and for cities to rebell and not simply flip. Both of these would add realism and still allow the peaceful builder to have a way to improve his civ without war.
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Old July 25, 2002, 04:29   #39
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4 days of vacation to Coracle (continued personal attacks) and Venger (flaming)

any discussion on this decision should be made in the Apolyton forum

carry on, thank you
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Old July 25, 2002, 04:43   #40
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Originally posted by MarkG
4 days of vacation to Coracle (continued personal attacks)
Dammit Markos, can you talk to the CFC staff about getting this done elsewhere?
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Old July 25, 2002, 04:47   #41
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I think it is awesome. It brings out the best of the espionage feature and demonstrates unequivocally that if you have enough money, you can buy just about anything.
What does it mean by 'espionage feature" and "have enough money'? Culture flipping involves none of these things!
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Old July 25, 2002, 05:29   #42
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Thanks Markos, it was getting a bit too much. Now without wanting to profit from the situation that people can't answer, I just want to explain why I said the example was faulty (I feel I have the right to respond to the initial flame):

The cultural pressure on that town is very large, as there are 7 tiles within it's radius controlled by a foreign nation. Maybe the town itself is only size 1, but when nearly half of the surrounding farmland is controlled by the enemy, you can hardly speak of an unreal flip. That is game-mechanically speaking, wihtout any reference to the real world. I consider it a exageration to call it a 'size 1 city with 9 garrison flip' when in reality it is a 'size 8 city with 8 garrison flip'.

It is good to use examples to illustrate your points, but please make sure you don't grossly exagerate your wording... you only will lose credability.

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Old July 25, 2002, 06:35   #43
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Personally I believe that Culture flipping is a neccessary implementation, if added realism and complexity is what is wanted. It is certainly a somewhat shallow representation of the whole concept of your empire consisting of individual entities with an heritage and a will of their own, but it is a step in the right direction.

Another thing that I would like to adress is that most of the numbers of men in the military units is abstract. All we know about this 1 Legion, is that it is 1 Legion. Though the town was 10.000 people, it is not so unrealistic to assume that these many people backed up with a countryside in revolt, angry at the mob of sheep herders that invaded their country (Less culture). Also if we are supposed to believe that the Legions are a simpel icon of their real historical strenght. Then we must consider that that quantity changed over history.
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Old July 25, 2002, 06:44   #44
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Added to that: there are numerous examples irl where part of the garrison of a city was paid by the 'oppresor', but was from the same nationality as the citizens of the city. These troops can switch side quite easily, and in the event of a flip join the rebellion, causing a snowball effect that 'kills' all foreign troops in a few hours. I'm not saying that the real world should dictate what is purely a game mechanic, but there are plenty of examples for and against this 'flipping'

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Old July 25, 2002, 07:16   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Added to that: there are numerous examples irl where part of the garrison of a city was paid by the 'oppresor', but was from the same nationality as the citizens of the city. These troops can switch side quite easily, and in the event of a flip join the rebellion, causing a snowball effect that 'kills' all foreign troops in a few hours.

DeepO
With that, perhaps flips should also be determined by the amount of goold in tthe treasury. Add the formula (money in treasury - cost of units) too determine if a flkp is possible.


Does tht maake sense? I know what I wanna convey, I'm just too tired and haven't had enough ciggarettes to construct prooper sentencces.
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Old July 25, 2002, 07:55   #46
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Maybe... but culture flipping will always be an abstraction of real life. I wouldn't make it more complex as it is now. Only the 'vanishing' of troops might be something to change, as too many players find it offensive. I, however, don't mind it at all.

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Old July 25, 2002, 09:00   #47
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Its about Political Control
As I have posted recently in another forum, the biggest problem with cities switching sides is that there is utterly no warning. Moreover, what happens to my troops in the city? Did they all just throw down their arms and go home?

As far as I'm concerned a rebellion should require a fight for political control. If I lose that fight, fine. Let the other Civ gain control of the city. But, at least give the player a chance to respond!

IMHO Civ 3 really blew it when they did away with guerrillas. How I think ANY rebellion should occur -- to include the unrest during anarchy when you're changing governments -- is as follows:

Firstly, the rebellion should begin with a city having its population slide into resistance. The more resisters, the greater chance of rebellion. If resisters are not put down over a given period of time -- say two turns -- then each resister should create one, two, or three guerrilla units. The number of guerrila units would be dependent of serveral variables, including: 1) are the resistors receiving outside help from another civ? 2) whether or not there is a police station in the city, 3) how many garrison troops are there, and 4) the degree to which the city's culture is differnt from the controlling player.

Once the guerrilla units appear, they would have the option of attacking the occupying garrison -- in which case, if they won, they'd gain control of the city, OR the guerrillas could move towards friendly territory and join forces with their home culture.

Each time a resister creates a guerrilla unit, that population point would be removed from the city. Thus, the entire population of a city could "vote with its feet" and move away. Guerrilla units would be the only military units capable of adding themselves as population points to a friendly city.

Just a thought. Anyone out there agree?

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Old July 25, 2002, 09:09   #48
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I think the most common complaint is that happens suddenly without warning. Now I certainly can't see a notice that x city will flip in y turrns, but there should at least be some unrest etc. to indicate beforehand that there's a problem. Maybe even a series of revolts before the actual event, which one by one destroys the units garrisoned in the city.
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Old July 25, 2002, 09:57   #49
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Quote:
What does it mean by 'espionage feature" and "have enough money'? Culture flipping involves none of these things!
The espionage feature I refer to is: “Use Spy - Initiate Propaganda – select a city to in which to launch a propaganda campaign. It requires the small wonder Intelligence Agency. It costs over 100 gold per pop in a city to perform this mission; it can take up to six tries to flip the city. (If it hasn’t flipped by the sixth try – it wont unless you flip all of the cities around it in which case, try again.) When a civ changes government and descends into anarchy, it’s time to get that spy working. Flip as many of the cities as you can before it changes into a more resistant form of government, but it can cost 20-30,000 gold or more to flip a modest size civ. Yeah, that’s right, flip the whole civ – you know your culture kicks butt when you can flip a capitol.
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Old July 25, 2002, 11:24   #50
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It sounds like a pretty good compromise, but there are still some unresolved issues. Like one of the things that makes guerrella warfare so hard to cope with for conventional forces. Is the difficulty in which is associatied with recognising the fighters from the commoner. These two parts seem to be an integrated part of the community during war, and very hard to discern one from the other.
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Old July 25, 2002, 12:44   #51
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[QUOTE]
A better way to work it would be to allow people immigraiting to culturally & economicly superior countries and for cities to rebell and not simply flip

this is how i would have like to see culture used in the game, but its not and i can deal with it.

when i invade a civ intent on taking there cities, i know there will be resistance.if i take a city near there capitol, i dont leave my whole invasion force there. i move right to the capitol and try to take out the main culture producing city they have. if you cant take out there capitol, chances are you will lose cities to a flip. in the begining i lost many cities to flips, now i only lose them if im careless or biting off more than i can chew.

its too bad that people here cant just discuss differant opinions without regressing back to a 3rd grade mentality of "if you dont agree,your just stupid".
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Old July 25, 2002, 12:47   #52
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Guerrillas and terrorists and spies -- Oh My!
Pappa Chubby,

I agree that it is often a problem for conventional forces to identify guerrillas, so your point is well-taken. As I have waxed prolific in another Civ forum, however, the whole problem with Civ 3 is the entire unconventional and espionage concept is a HUGE devloution from what was so well-done in Civ 2.

Here's what I'd do to fix the situation. Firstly, give me back my diplomats and spies. I want to be able to move my spies and have them be able to "infiltrate" cities and cause all sorts of mischief as in Civ 2. How much more effective would these spies be now that we havethe concept of culture in the game?

I see spies as being instruments to foment or enhance resistance and rebellion in a city. While it is not a given that a spy would successfully infiltrate a city [see my counterintelligence ideas below] if the spy does successfully "infiltrate" the city the city popup screen appears -- although each of its fields of information would be blank. Once here, the spy may gather intelligence (clicking on a field tol reveal what's there -- i.e., all city improvements or the population happiness, for example).

Once a field is revealed the spy may simply leave with that information, or attempt to do more -- at greater risk, of course. In terms of fomenting rebellion, the spy would have to risk being caught while contacting a population point. The more happy the population point, the higher the risk of being caught. Thus, if there are members of the population already in resistance, they would rarely turn in the spy.

Once contact is made with one of the population points a dialogue box would appear with a range of options. The low end would be to move that population point from content to unhappy, or unhappy to resistance -- reflecting agitation and propaganda efforts.

A more risky option would be to seek to get that population point to perform sabotage in the square in which it works -- destroying any tile improvements there. Still another option would be to plant an arms cache there -- (see guerrilla units below).

If any resistors are already in the city, the spy would have several other options available to it. Firstly, the spy could attempt to recruit a terrorist cell. That cell would appear as a unit adjacent to the city (and would only be able to move within the area controlled by that city). The terrorist unit would only be visible to a spy or specialized military/security units. The terrorist unit would be able to perform bombardment missions on its own or any other square controlled by the city. Attacking and destroying a terrorist unit will risk pushing the population point that created it into full rebellion -- a point deeper than resistance.

Rebellion would be yet another option for the spy, albeit one that is very risky. If successful, the rebelling population point would be removed from the city and one, two or three guerrilla units would be created. The number of units created would be a factor of the level of city security (a minus factor) and the number of arms caches available ( a positive factor).

Guerrillas operate as any other conventional unit would EXCEPT they would have the option to retreat after any single round of combat. Moreover, they would never pay any movement penalties for any terrain they moved through or over. Because guerrillas are part of the people, each time a guerrilla unit is attacked there is a chance more people will move from content to unhappy or from unhappy to resistance.

Guerrillas would have an additional defensive bonus in forests, jungles, and swamps and they would be able to be added as a population point to any city of the nation supporting it -- if they could get to those cities. The Guerrillas would have a very low offensive capability, however.

Counterintelligence capability would be the principal defense against spies. Firstly, friendly spies in a city would each have a chance to detect and attack any enemy spy seeking to infiltrate that city. These friendly spies would have their capabilities enhanced by having a police station in the city. This attack would be as normal combat is resolved between conventional military units. [Could play a James Bond theme song during the exchange of pistol shots!] Secondly, spies could attempt to uncover arms caches by interrogating a population point. Each interrogation runs the risk of further alienating/angering that population point, but may uncover an arms cache -- which would automatically be destroyed if/when found.

Spies could also attempt to assassinate the governor. If successful, the probability of a city going into rebellion would increase dramatically -- with each resistor moving into open rebellion and guerrillas poping up everywhere. Or a spy could simply attempt to perform the old sabotage mission herself -- blowing up a city improvement, construction project, and so on.

Also in another thread I mentioned the ability of spies performing lasing missions for stealth bombers -- increasing the probability the bomb(s) will not miss.

As you can see, there is much, much more that could be done with this. Bottom Line is: a city never simply flips to a new owner, but goes into rebellion and is more susceptible to being conquered by conventional or unconventional means.

Colonel D.
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Old July 25, 2002, 12:48   #53
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Venger and Coracle have both been suspended three days for throwing around personal insults.

Enough of this crap. It is ok to agree or disagree with the value of "Culture Flipping"... but that is no reason to start a flame war. Both sides have valid point of views.

So stay on topic, and stop with the insults...
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Old July 25, 2002, 12:58   #54
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Re: Guerrillas and terrorists and spies -- Oh My!
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Originally posted by Colonel D.
Pappa Chubby,

Here's what I'd do to fix the situation. Firstly, give me back my diplomats and spies. I want to be able to move my spies and have them be able to "infiltrate" cities and cause all sorts of mischief as in Civ 2. How much more effective would these spies be now that we havethe concept of culture in the game?
Obviously you haven't played Alpha Centauri. It became pretty ridiculous seeing half a dozen or more AI spies infiltrate my cities, and getting nothing for all that production effort than basic information.
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Old July 25, 2002, 13:50   #55
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Zouave is Coracle . . . is also Venger? If not, how is it possible for there two be two such unique styles of . . . argument?

CF is a great concept - needs some slight tweaks. It's the "suddenness" of the flip that really unnerves people. Should be a 1-3 turn intermediate phase of civil disorder, during which time for each resisting citizen, there is a chance of the following: produce guerilla (unit with high defense, explorer type mvmt, low offense, invisible flag); destroy city improvements; destroy tile improvements; destroy/flip a military unit within the 21 square city radius (not just within the actual city). After at least one turn - during which you get messages like "Revolting citizens in Satsuma attacked our infantry!" or "Guerrilla acitivity near New York!" - the city can then flip and the remaining garrison is destroyed. Take away the suddenness, which is what makes it seem arbitrary, and I think even Coracle/Zouave/Venger would not object to it.
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Old July 25, 2002, 14:04   #56
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OT:My theory - Zouave is Venger. Coracle is his experimental bot.
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Old July 25, 2002, 15:04   #57
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Originally posted by Iskandar Reza
OT:My theory - Zouave is Venger. Coracle is his experimental bot.
Whatever...

They're all annoying IMO. And if more people would ignore them like I do, maybe they'll just go away. All they're doing is looking for a soapbox to jump on. Don't give them the satisfaction, and they'll have to find some other way to get people to notice them.

I kind of feel sorry for them really, along with a number of other ranters that have come and gone around here. They try so hard to get some recognition, but their tactics makes people want to shut them out.
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Old July 25, 2002, 15:28   #58
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Uhhhh... what did I say about sticking to the topic
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Old July 25, 2002, 15:30   #59
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Sadly, whenever there is even a bit of controversy, Venger and/or Coracle inevitably *become* the topic.
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Old July 25, 2002, 20:43   #60
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Quote:
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Uhhhh... what did I say about sticking to the topic
What do you mean, when talking about CF, surely talking about Coracle is on topic, no? Without him this thread is about to die... It is not really the first of its kind, these seem to come in bursts... one guy starts it off, another wants to give some reason why he was wrong, Coracle jumps in and flames them all, and all of a sudden there are 50 more responses and 5 more threads on the same thing.

Everybody has given his opinion at least a few times already, this is just repeating arguments. This was a relatively good thread (see? I'm already talking in the past tense here ), as we could see one of Coracle's examples.. now he's gone, and the topic has gone with him.

On topic again (as much as this is possible): Go Borg!

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