Has anyone finished a 1.29 game?

SpencerH · July 24, 2002, 11:32

Any comments on the feel of 1.29 games vs 1.21. I've started a 1.29 game myself but if the consensus is that it isnt much different from 1.21 I'll get back to work on my mod.

miccofl · July 24, 2002, 11:53

The changes in game play are minor. The changes in the editor are major.

When you go back to work on your mod make sure any new units, improvements/wonders, resources, etc have a Civilopedia entry - any entry will do until you get around to writing the real one - or the game will crash to the desktop when you try to start your mod. (pediaicon crash)

This "feature" has rendered all my modded save games useless. The mods will work though once the add-ons have the appropriate Civilopedia entry.

alva · July 24, 2002, 13:31

tech race didn't seem to have slowed down IMO.
maybe even faster, off this could have been a one-off.
the AI was doing rather well, all 7 off them.

SpencerH · July 24, 2002, 14:08

Thats what I've seen so far on a monarch level game. Two other civs both trading happily with each other and being stingy with me.

Catt · July 24, 2002, 17:00

I finished one Monarch game on a tiny map, four civs (including me). Everything random - I ended up with the Greeks (test run of the commercial trait

). Map looked to be archipelago, 70% or 80% water, arid, temperate or warm, 4 or 5 billion. Haven't played with these settings enough for meaningful comparisons of 1.29 versus 1.21, but:

1. I think the tech race went more slowly than normal. I built the Great Lighthouse and was able to control contacts for some time - I therefore had a tech lead pretty early which I never really relinquished, although the AI did a good job of keeping up. One AI civ did fall behind and was then left in the dust - not enough gold / resources to trade with its AI brethren.

2. I definitely saw more knights / cavalry / tanks than I am used to seeing pre-patch and therefore more blitz attacks.

3. Not enough experience to judge the strength of the new and improved commercial trait, although I had very little problem with corruption (well-placed FP) even though I eventually won via domination.

I have also almost finished one Emperor game on a standard map, eight civs (including me). Everything random - I ended up with the Chinese. Map looked to be continents 80% water or archipelago 60% water, wet or normal, temperate or warm, 3 or 4 billion. Thoughts:

1. I really think the tech race went more slowly. I'm into the very early 1800's without a SS launch, and I have a big, powerful empire that is researching most techs in 4 or 5 turns since about industrialization (and have a 4 or 5 tech lead). I did do a fair amount of early warmongering to secure my continent / landmass (by far the largest in the game) - so overall tech progression probably slowed by this - the other AI civs had settled all their available land and were stuck with relatively small empires and, therefore, weak research capabilities.

2. Lots of knights / cavalry / tanks!

Overall I am enjoying the new patch (principally the bug fix which ensures the AI has more "attacker" units), and, if the tech rate has slowed down (as opposed to a fluke with my games), I think I'll like that as well.

Catt

Thrawn05 · July 24, 2002, 19:33

I just did, and I find that trading with the AI is much more plesent, until morden age. I was able to trade luxury for luxury, resource for resource without havin' to pay extra... then all of a sudden, the AI wants 500 a turn for stupid ivory, or 2580 gold for Computers.

Firaxis... your almost there.

SpencerH · July 24, 2002, 19:34

Great comments. Thanks for the effort.

dnassman · July 24, 2002, 19:48

I completed a regent game and found that the AI civs that had the right techs "seemed" to upgrade their defensive units in their cities. Never seen that before. They didn't have any spearman as all "seemed" to be upgrade with musketmen or Riflemen which they recently discovered. Anyone else can confirm this???

Dom Pedro II · July 24, 2002, 20:39

I've quit out of every 1.29 game I've played so far... I'm hoping to finish this latest one.

The one I worked the hardest on though got me all the way to 1954 when I was still with Cavalry and the AI civilizations were rumbling through with Bombers and Tanks. I decided to quit right then and there. There didn't seem to be much more of a point after that.

The Pioneer · July 25, 2002, 03:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
I've quit out of every 1.29 game I've played so far... I'm hoping to finish this latest one.

The one I worked the hardest on though got me all the way to 1954 when I was still with Cavalry and the AI civilizations were rumbling through with Bombers and Tanks. I decided to quit right then and there. There didn't seem to be much more of a point after that.

What level was that?

My first game in 1.29f I am playing in Warlord before I move up to Regent but I have not finished it yet. I must say that I have not seen much of a difference untll now.

=DrJambo= · July 25, 2002, 05:57

do you ever see any marines or paras? Or just tanks, tanks, tanks?

regards the cost of luxuries and resources... the bigger your empire in relation to the AIs the more they will ask for these trades. Conversely, if they are much bigger than you expect to get some really good trading deals (eg. ivory for ivory +).

NeoStar · July 25, 2002, 06:44

This all sounds too good.

When I finish messing around with scn's I have to check this out-the AI is on the offense with offensive units!

vondrack · July 25, 2002, 07:19

I was able to finish one Regent game on a Standard Map ("everything average" settings), playing Americans. I did not notice any major differences as for the gameplay issues...

I did notice a couple of AI (Roman) Marines around actually... perhaps for the first time in my Civ3 playlife.

It's been a very good game. Although I was able to secure my finely sized continent after a bloody war with Aztecs, I had some tough time catching up on techs later. I beat Russians in the Space Race by several turns only - it was a nice example of that territory is not everything. Russians were relatively small (maybe one half of my area), but a bit isolated on two islands, so seldom finding themselves in wars...

Overall impression: a bit better than 1.21f (also because of the handy forced renegotiation option), although not significantly. Evolution, not revolution.

Cookie Monster · July 25, 2002, 08:11

I haven't noticed any major differences in gameplay other than there are much much fewer bugs!

BTW where are all the great ones? I'm waiting to here feedback from Arrian, Sir Ralph, Velociryx, Aeson, Uber, NYE, etc. etc.

P.S. Panag where are you? It's been a while since we've last heard from you.

Cort Haus · July 25, 2002, 08:14

To test the 'new, improved' commercial trait, I noted my commerce stats of an existing 30 city game (English) then ran the patch and compared.

In 1.21 I had :

city income : 439G
corruption : -129G
Max net income : +158
min research time : 9 turns (with +35G)

in 1.29

city income : 439G
corruption : -129G
Max net income : +158
min research time : 12 turns (with +35G)

So, absolutely not a single penny extra for being commercial. Corruption is the same (no improved max_no_of_cities), and waste was also the same in all cities.

Yes, science has slowed down, but it seems that there has been no change to the commercial trait, unless the factors are stored in the savegame in the start - which clearly isn't the case with the science rate.

nb: This was under monarchy govt, I don't know if the higher commerce levels of democracy would have shown a difference.

=DrJambo= · July 25, 2002, 09:18

how many cities do you have, maybe you haven't reached your maximum number of cities yet? Plus the bonuses to commerce only occur when you have cities and/or metropolises.

as Soren stated the commercial trait is really a late-game trait.

player1 · July 25, 2002, 09:34

Maybe you just need to start a NEW game?

Not all changes affect pre-patch games.

jshelr · July 25, 2002, 09:47

I've finished two games. I second Catt's opinion about tech slowing down. My games suggest it has slowed down a lot on Emperor.

In fact, while I used to set reserch to zero after iron and horses, the AI was so sluggish in the first game that I attempted to out research them in the second game -- and succeeded. That would have been very rare pre-patch. Even got some early wonders.

At the end game, the AI civs had built factories and power plants on a widespread basis. That is a new feature too, isn't it?? This may make them more competitive.

Don't know if they are going to beeline better for the SS techs, but I've got my suspicions that this might have been fixed.

All told, the game is more fun on emperor now, based on two games only. If this proves true, I'll probably stupidly try to play Diety.

SpencerH · July 25, 2002, 10:13

So it seems like the consensus so far is that AI tech trading seems to have slowed down and may be more balanced now, the AI is building offensive units, but no known effect of commercial tweaks. I think I'll play out my game to see what happens.

Cort Haus · July 25, 2002, 12:00

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
how many cities do you have, maybe you haven't reached your maximum number of cities yet? Plus the bonuses to commerce only occur when you have cities and/or metropolises.

as Soren stated the commercial trait is really a late-game trait.

It was early Industial era with 30 cities and about 8-9 size 12.

I'm hoping that unlike the science slowdown you have to start a new game for the changes to kick in. If there is an extra commerce for size 6-12 it should have shown, and if the max_cities was raised (max cities allowed before 1-shield corruption) then corruption should have lowered.

Researching your way to an ancient era tech lead is now far more viable on Monarch, and the AI's are noticably less promiscuous about trading tech. Big improvement.

Killerdaffy · July 25, 2002, 23:30

The tech race HAS slowed down. I never arrived in the 1800's before... (on Emperor, Pangea, everything standard).

Also the AI is starting some serious wars for resources now, something I've never seen before. One of them was missing rubber - he assemble a decent strike force and went right for one of my cities in the jungle. Just happened to have Mech Infantry before him...

About offensive units: I don't know. I modded a new unit, a Commando (16, 1, 1, all terrain as roads, amphibious, para, HIDDEN NATIONALITY, available with Espionage). Never try that with a land unit! The AI is stealing my workers left and right while we are are at peace and happily trading. The only reason he didn't take more than one of my cities is that I've got all of them defended by at least two MI now. I hope to finish the game soon, it's a pain in the a$$ to go chasing after 1-5 stacks of captured workers every turn... I haven't seen many stacks of Riflemen / Infantry except for some time in mid-industrial.

Cort Haus · July 26, 2002, 04:05

re: extra commerce for the commercial trait -

Despite what I found earlier, I've found that reaching size 7 adds three commerce to the city tile. I don't remember it being that many before.

Dalai Lama · July 26, 2002, 05:44

I finished my first Deity 1.29 game. People say the tech race slowed down somewhat, I think this is indeed true.
I think in this game I just finished, I never could have come back in let's say 1.21 of 1.17.

But I made the mistake early in the game (+-750 BC), to break a peace treaty and a right of passage agreement

. My reputation sank like a rock... Tech trading became very hard. I soon found myself easily an age behind in tech race (ancient<--->middle ages). Still at great costs (military and gold) i got my realm expanded quite a bit to a solid 30 city empire (normal map). Then i could finally beat them in tech race, with the help of some espionage and some tech brokering (reputation was a little better by then). I was playing with the Persians, and those cheap library's and universities really helped big time. I don't think I'd pulled this of with let's say the Americans...

SpencerH · July 26, 2002, 07:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Killerdaffy

About offensive units: I don't know. I modded a new unit, a Commando (16, 1, 1, all terrain as roads, amphibious, para, HIDDEN NATIONALITY, available with Espionage). Never try that with a land unit! The AI is stealing my workers left and right while we are are at peace and happily trading. The only reason he didn't take more than one of my cities is that I've got all of them defended by at least two MI now. I hope to finish the game soon, it's a pain in the a$$ to go chasing after 1-5 stacks of captured workers every turn... I haven't seen many stacks of Riflemen / Infantry except for some time in mid-industrial.

The colourless units have been around for a while. Interesting isnt it? I dont remember what era Willems units were present, but mine were medieval units that were very powerful. I guess our discussions intrigued Firaxis, from the hints it looks like one of these units may be in PtW.

HazieDaVampire · July 26, 2002, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by miccofl
The changes in game play are minor. The changes in the editor are major.

When you go back to work on your mod make sure any new units, improvements/wonders, resources, etc have a Civilopedia entry - any entry will do until you get around to writing the real one - or the game will crash to the desktop when you try to start your mod. (pediaicon crash)

This "feature" has rendered all my modded save games useless. The mods will work though once the add-ons have the appropriate Civilopedia entry.

This inclued new Governments?
I've made about 4 or 5!

And thanks for warning us, i was just about to start adding new units!

Arrian · July 26, 2002, 14:55

I have played 1 game into the industrial age so far. I wanted to test the changes to "commerical" out, so I played Rome.

The start spot was ok (Rome itself was nice - coastal, lake, 2 wheat, 1 cow - but north was a line of mts and a large desert, west was nice land and the Egyptians). Guess who had to die? Anyway, though Rome still isn't a great civ, I think commercial makes a noticeable difference now. It's not about the extra commerce - it's about the corruption reduction.

The tech race is much more enjoyable now. I played on Monarch/Standard/8/continents, but got a pangea. All 8 civs together. I hit Egypt early, taking Thebes and reducing them to 1 city. I traded early on, then bought some while researching toward Monarchy. Switched to Monarchy and then unleashed my legions (upgraded from warriors, of course) on Japan. Kyoto had the Great Library, which is worth more now with the 1.29 changes. Since the tech race is different (AI at normal rate/human slower as opposed to human at normal rate/AI at superspeed), you actually have time to milk the Library. The money I made was reinvested in my economy.

After taking down the Zulu with knights/elite legions and crushing Greece with the help of the Iroquois, I've hit critical mass. I'm now a democracy, researching industrialization, with a "strong" army compared to any of the surviving civs (who all hate me). Zululand is finally ramping up to full productivity (I relocated my Palace up there during the war w/a leader) and my rail net is coming together. I have all the wonders worth having, I'm finally getting rich (I was a King for longer than I would have liked), and I'm about to go industrial. Plus, I managed to get an MPP with the Iroquois, the only civ that *might* be able to hurt me.

I have an elite legionary named "Praetorian Guards" a Knight in an army named "1st Cavaliers" (formerly an elite horseman) and a Cavalry (formerly a Knight unit) named "Crusaders."

How cool is that? What a great little addition to the game.

I think builders should be very happy with the 1.29 patch. The tech race & tech trading seems back under control. You have time to build, and poor/backwards civs will in fact fall behind and stay behind in the tech race.

-Arrian

Catt · July 26, 2002, 17:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
The tech race is much more enjoyable now. [. . . .] Kyoto had the Great Library, which is worth more now with the 1.29 changes. Since the tech race is different (AI at normal rate/human slower as opposed to human at normal rate/AI at superspeed), you actually have time to milk the Library.

Ain't that the truth! I started my third 1.29f game last night. Emperor, small map, 6 civs (including me), all random. I ended up as Gandhi (commercial again!).

My start position wasn't very good - 4 or 5 shielded grasslands by moving my settler one tile, but no fresh water within a 3 tile radius (and it turns out that there is plenty of fresh water on the map). I met my immediate neighbors pretty quickly - Japan, Aztecs and Iroqouis. * Sigh * Both Japan and Aztecs were very close to my start location - I think our capital citites are all within 10 - 12 tiles of one another -- no nice ring of cities around my capital this game. * Sigh *

I decided on two possible early game strategies: (1) horseman rush on Tokugawa; or (2) peaceful (read: meek) builder until at least the middle ages. I set my research towards Literature (I often start researching Writing immediately with a commercial civ), planning to trade for The Wheel at first opportunity.

At first I was astonished at the tech rate -- it wasn't anything like my first two games -- it didn't seem to have slowed down at all compared to 1.21f, it seemed to have accelerated. But I soon discovered that this was largely due to the map generator having given us a pangea - max water. All six civs were in contact with one another (and trading starting techs) before I had even researched writing.

After securing The Wheel via trade, I was oh-so excited to discover that there were no horses even within striking range of my start spot - no horseman rush, so peaceful (read: meek) builder strat here we go. [BTW, I think this is the first time I've ever played India and not had access to horses -- who says the War Elephant is a completely useless UU

.]

My peaceful, builder approach was to concentrate on a strong cultural base so that later warring (if necessary) would be viable. After building a few early temples (very early compared to many other games) I actually set my capital on a Pyramids build, intending to switch to the Great Library. It was a very risky strategy (since I wouldn't have a Palace build to fall back on, but hoped I might have been able to trade for Monarchy and therefore have the HG as a fall-back), but the initial tech rate, the relatively poor start location, and the dangerous neighbors convinced me that I needed to do something to get a leg up, and culture / tech seemed the most viable option. [This game will also produce some interesting factoids / examples for all the culture flipping discussions raging].

I don't think I've ever built an early GW on Emperor, but the AI civs hadn't really started many wonders (The Pyramids and Oracle only, and no one had researched Writing yet when I did, so I hoped I could pull off the GL). I ended up building the GL, beating the AIs by probably one or two turns (about 2 or 3 other GWs were built by AIs on the turn I completed the GL).

I got a flood of techs - up through about Feudalism, and then I enjoyed the GL's benefits for at least 30 or 40 more turns. I honestly can't remember an Emperor game (though I really haven't played that many) - and don't think its all that common at Monarch in any event - for the human player (and sometimes even the AIs) to build the GL and actually get any use out of it. I can definitely recall instances under 1.21f when an AI civ completes the GL while everyone is already reaserching Astronomy or Gunpowder. And my GL remained useful for at least 30 or 40 more turns. There was some AI-AI warfare going on, but not a truly excessive amount - IMHO under 1.21f there is simply no way an Emperor pangea game (even on a small map) would yield more than a few turns, if any, worth of GL utility.

I like this new tech rate!

Catt

Cort Haus · July 27, 2002, 11:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
and don't think its all that common at Monarch in any event - for the human player (and sometimes even the AIs) to build the GL and actually get any use out of it

I've had planty of success with the GL on Monarch with early literature and a decent pre-build - set the science to 0% and get rich while the AI researches maybe 10 techs or so for you.

OTOH, if LIteracy is late, the AI does sometimes finish it post-astronomy

.

Cort Haus · July 27, 2002, 12:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I think commercial makes a noticeable difference now. It's not about the extra commerce - it's about the corruption reduction.
{snip}
I'm now a democracy, researching industrialization, with a "strong" army compared to any of the surviving civs (who all hate me).
{snip}
I think builders should be very happy with the 1.29 patch. The tech race & tech trading seems back under control. You have time to build, and poor/backwards civs will in fact fall behind and stay behind in the tech race.
-Arrian

Commercial Boost:
Yes, Liz was able to build me an FP in a remote island nearly the height of a standard map away from the capital at 5 shields/turn, with a temple / harbor / mkt / WLTK / courthouse bootstrap kit.
Also, I don't recall getting 5 commerce from a size 7+ city square before. Aqueducts become a real shot-in the arm for a growing commercial civ hungry for gold.

Rep:
Yes, I'd expect that to be the case with the Arrian strat on pangea, but how did it affect you? Are they now unwilling to trade gpt? Presumably you don't need to trade for lux as you own enough, but do you get any problems trading tech? Or, is the likelihood of attack whilst consolidating territory and ramping up infrastucture a concern? The idea of sweeping through a vast continent with three flavours of upgrading horsies sounds fun

, and I was wondering if a disgraced rep got in the way at all.

Tech-rate:
I hadn't found a fast tech-rate on Pangea to be a problem for the builder, as long as you got into the loop early with some good tech-paths and savvy trading. It reduces the size of the offensive-advantage window (as better defenders were quickly available) and ultimately rewards the early infrastructure investment made whilst the AI's were bashing each other.
You mentioned the Great Libray as more valuable in 1.29 (if Literacy is bee-lined) - well, that dark horse the Lighthouse

just got a whole lot stronger too on non-pangea. With astronomy so many turns further away, the ability to establish colonial dominance of remote islands is enhanced, as is the benefit of enjoying exclusive trade and communications options with over-seas civs.

W4r_Machine · July 27, 2002, 15:46

I don't know if this is just me, but in 1.29 the CIV are less willing to give up techs when you beat it out of them. I'm behing 2 techs so I decided to go to war with the Indians. I've taken 4 cities and decided It's time for peace so I ask for peace along with electricity and espianage, but they wont give it to me. So I contued the war till I took every indian city on my continent. They now only have 2 cities way out out at sea, still they refuse to give me what I want. Usually with 1.21, I take 2 or 3 cities and they give me all of their belongings just for peace.

The same with all the civ I went to war with.