Prophets&Clerics&Bears Oh My!

Hermann the Lombard · July 25, 2002, 11:27

Something is unclear in the manual (shocking, I know) and it hasn't gotten clearer as I have played: what are the magnitudes of the various cash-generating special attacks? The manual: "Sell Indulgences...generates cash for your empire." "Convert City...brings in a small amount of cash." "Faith Healing...brings profit to your empire." "Advertise...extracts gold from cities." I haven't seen the last two of those in a long time, since all I've been playing has been Cradle, but I add those for the sake of (relative) completeness. I don't need exact numbers, but a closer approximation would be nice.

-- HtL

p.s. THIS one isn't in the FAQ.

HuangShang · July 25, 2002, 11:51

sorry, the only unconventional warfare i use is the slaver and the spy

Pedrunn · July 27, 2002, 17:37

It depend on the mod you are using. But it is a fixed value. You can easily find this value in lines in the const.txt. yet i dont remember how much it was now i may look later for you

Pedrunn · July 29, 2002, 13:06

I think the lines can expalin themselves:

Code:

CLERIC_CONVERSION_FACTOR 0.2        # cities converted by clerics send this much of their gold each turn
TELEVANGELIST_CONVERSION_FACTOR 0.4 # like the above, but for televangelists and cities with televisions (cities without TV fall back to the cleric level)

UNCONVERTED_INDULGENCE_GOLD 3
UNCONVERTED_INDULGENCE_HAPPINESS 2
CONVERTED_INDULGENCE_GOLD 5
CONVERTED_INDULGENCE_HAPPINESS 4
OTHER_FAITH_INDULGENCE_GOLD 2
OTHER_FAITH_INDULGENCE_HAPPINESS 1

Hermann the Lombard · July 29, 2002, 15:10

Thanks, Pedrunn!

Well, the first two are self-explanatory, but the others are somewhat less so. The unconverted indulgence gold is 3...3 what? 3 gold regardless? 3% of their output? I suspect the former (since it doesn't say 0.03), but if so, I wonder why I'm building any clerics...

However, I'll go take a look in the file; things may become clearer (clear as mud, at minimum)!

Pedrunn · July 29, 2002, 17:16

Unconverted cities gives 3 gold when you sell indulgence. Converted ones gives 5 gold and converted ones by others civs gives 1 gold

child of Thor · July 30, 2002, 05:49

It's pittence really in the long run - probably get more money by just taking the city and decideing to either keep it or burn it.....I like the idea, i think maybe the cost's are too high in comparison to the gain.....hmmm.....i dunno. I feel the same about most the other 'special' attacks as well; like franchise etc - they all cost a few hundred to perform and you get little back, or so it seems. I still do it to my most hated enemies though - like the idea of sucking them dry

mapfi · July 30, 2002, 07:36

Personally, I often play with these options even though their use is questionable. Just for fun...

What if you adjust those settings? Does it seriously unbalance the game? Even more important, does the AI use those options, too? I've never seen him doing it, but then I just started seriously gaming CtP2 a few weeks ago again.
Pedrunn, what file are they in?

Has anyone played with these settings in a mod or even worked on the AI concerning this?

J Bytheway · July 30, 2002, 08:00

the values have indeed been changed in mods (at least, so Pedrunn said above) and you find them in const.txt.

Oerdin · July 30, 2002, 08:29

I too like the idea but the cost to benifet just doesn't make converting cities worth while. I also think a player should get more money if he converts a huge metropolis then if he converts a one stop town in the middle of no where. As the values stand now there is no difference between the two.

HuangShang · July 30, 2002, 11:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Unconverted cities gives 3 gold when you sell indulgence. Converted ones gives 5 gold and converted ones by others civs gives 1 gold

if its pay is so low... then whats it cost?...sorry, i never use it

Hermann the Lombard · July 30, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
I too like the idea but the cost to benifet just doesn't make converting cities worth while. I also think a player should get more money if he converts a huge metropolis then if he converts a one stop town in the middle of no where. As the values stand now there is no difference between the two.

Agreed, that makes no sense. I would have expected a percentage piece of the action, perhaps 10% (the traditional tithe), or maybe 10/5/3% (converted/unconverted/other)...but 3 gold after spending a LOT of production? That means that prophets/clerics/whatnot are really only useful as scouts and to detect other stealth units.

On second thought, conversion is worthwhile (20% for clerics), and that is the only clerical function I've seen the AI use. I have an ongoing game where my only ally is sending one prophet and one cleric across my border over and over. I kick 'em out, they come right back. If I kill 'em, I know my ally will declare war.

How about Soothsaying? I've done a fair amount in Cradle and I've never seen any useful result (like a revolt), even when I've hit one city with 5 clerics...come to think of it, I haven't hit one city with 5 clerics one at a time.

Any thoughts about indulgences from the modmakers?

Pedrunn · July 30, 2002, 17:37

In my gams i have increased the value of indulgences gold from converted cities to 10. This way a cleric can be profitable in 10 turns after the conversion.
But there is also the risk of the cleric be caught during conversion. Still for this money it is bearable

Oerdin · July 30, 2002, 19:30

Does anyone know how much production it costs to build a cleric verses a slaver? I don't and I'm to lazy to look it up myself

so maybe someone can tell us so we can go through the exact cost and benifet figures.

mapfi · July 31, 2002, 07:01

well, I couldn't resist to play around with the stuff:
In the const.txt you'll also find the line

Code:

FRANCHISE_EFFECT 0.1    # How much production a franchise steals

Which tells us, that contrary to the manual (oh my god!) you don't get half of the franchised city production but only a tenth.

Playing around with clerics and burocrats reassured me that this stuff is actually working.
Convert City: As it cost 100 it will pay off only if the enemy earns lots of money per city - so in my opinion this is useless while its government isn't on a advanced level.
Indulgence: Being free, why not? Would it be much work to write some slic checking for the city size and give appropriate gold in return?
Soothsay(both clerics and burocrats): Now this might not be as bad as it seems - especially in a multiplayer game it'll practically halt an oponent's production when 5 more people become unhappy, but 500 seems rather expensive for that. The lawyer does it for 300.
Franchise: Were the actual setting really 0.5 tis could give you a veritable boost in production. First, the military unit upkeeping cost are paid by this, the rest goes into PW.

Ii be great if any modmaker could look into that indulgence stuff.

mapfi · July 31, 2002, 07:05

one more thing I forgot:

It seems that soothsay and advertise is the same action. Completly different to what is said and actually reasonably explained in the manual

I haven't see advertising generate cash but only unhappiness in the attacked city (by -5 like soothsaying)

Pedrunn · July 31, 2002, 07:32

Both decrease happiness. I didnt even know about this money income from advertise.

Martin Gühmann · July 31, 2002, 07:41

Quote:

Originally posted by mapfi
It seems that soothsay and advertise is the same action. Completly different to what is said and actually reasonably explained in the manual I haven't see advertising generate cash but only unhappiness in the attacked city (by -5 like soothsaying)

In fact there are two different slic events for the advertise order and ther soothsay order, the effect might be the same (actual I don't know), but I would say that soothsaying isn't as powerfull as advertising in nowadays.

Quote:

Originally posted by mapfi
well, I couldn't resist to play around with the stuff:
In the const.txt you'll also find the line

Code:

FRANCHISE_EFFECT 0.1    # How much production a franchise steals

Well in my GM1_const.txt you'll find this:

Code:

FRANCHISE_EFFECT 		0.4    # How much production a franchise steals

So you will see an effect in GoodMod.

-Martin

mapfi · July 31, 2002, 10:01

The effect of unhappiness is defined in the units.txt file and is -5 for only one turn for both.
As for the different slic events, isn't that just for different sound?
Advertising never generated any cash when i tried it.

Soothsaying really isn't really effective today, you're right. Shouldn't advertising be named propaganda, though? Unhappiness isn't exactly linked to advertising... Unless we're talking of commercials on tv inbetween you're favorite series

@Pedrunn: It says it in the German Great Library, what does the English one say?

@Oerdin: you find those shield cost values in the units.txt
slaver..................480
cleric..................540
teleevangeslist....1200
corporate branch.1500

mapfi · July 31, 2002, 10:10

@Hermann:
The game let's you do multiple soothsay-attacks (or advertise) on a city but the effect rests at only -5 happiness for the next turn, so there's no use doing that.

J Bytheway · July 31, 2002, 11:02

The idea behind the advertising is that it advertises products which don't exist, and people get unhappy when they can't find them - it's a bit weak IMHO.

Oerdin · July 31, 2002, 13:57

JB: I agree it is alittle weak.

Mapfi: Thanks for the figures.

If a slaver costs 480 shields to cheat plus a certain amount of gold per turn to up keep then I could see a profit on investment after you have taken three slaves or so.

I believe Clerics (540 shields), Televangelists (1200 shields), and corporate Branches (1500 shields) all only give you .1 of the cities production so unless the city is truly a megaproducer you will never get your intial investment back. As an added problem both the AI and humans reform converted cities almost immediately so you are out the conversion costs, the unit build costs, & the unit up keep costs with nothing to show for it in the positive direction.

Oerdin · July 31, 2002, 13:58

Do you folks think we should change the Aoplyton packs value of .1 so that it will be .5 like the printed manual says it is? Just a thought.

Pedrunn · July 31, 2002, 21:02

We should raise it for sure. But i think .5 is too high. maybe 0.4 or 0.3 is the best

child of Thor · August 1, 2002, 06:12

How about reducing the cost to perform each action?
Does the AI use the 'offensive' special unit abilities? I've seen them slave and undo some of my special attacks, but as far as i can remember i don't think i've ever been 'Franchised' or 'Soothsayed' by an AI? I know they slave and spy(maybe incite revolt too?). Maybe the AI just knows the cost's are too high

I suppose the problem would be in getting the cost/effect balance right, Gold isn't a problem later in the game so you don't want to give the human player too much of an advantage in this respect, but the production bonus could be good to tweak for franchise(if the AI actually uses it too), and selling indulgences should maybe be cheaper to perform(as it is a very minor attack)?
Some people hated the special attacks in CTP1+2 - i've always liked them, they add a little spice to just using military attacks.
But i agree with you all here, they do need some balancing out if possible.

mapfi · August 2, 2002, 13:44

Selling indulgences is a free action, and i think there's no chance of beein caught. Heck, it even raises happiness in the target city, so it's a really strange "attack". That's why it should gnerate more cash and this also in relevance to city size.

@Oerdin:
You're confusing two things. Converted cities give you part of their income in gold (the values are further up), franchising gives you part of their shield production, it pays your military upkeeping cost and if there's more left adds it to PW.

For tweeking those settings we could also consider to change the value of this in the units.txt: "ShieldHunger 5" (eg. cleric) That's the upkeeping cost, isn't it?

mapfi · August 5, 2002, 09:21

I started a new thread over in the mod forum, since this is what we're talking about now:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=58009