Great Leader Generation (mystery solved)

Artifex · July 26, 2002, 08:22

I have noticed that I never get great leaders attacking out in the open with elite units. In all my games played the only time a Gl is generated is when I am killing off the >>Last<< defender in a city with an elite unit and thus taking the city. This usually comes when attacking a city with many defenders...and I usually have taken heavy casualties.

For example it goes like this. 12 horsemen attack 6 fortified spearmen in enemy capital city. I take bad losses lose 75% of my force..the last spearman is down to 3 bars. My elite horsemen attacks. He wins barely with one red bar.. *poof* rename unit screen GL created.

I am convinced that great leader generation occurs only when attacking a city. I am also thinking that it occurs possibly when an elite unit takes a city. I am also seeing that it happens after a tough battle when an elite unit almost dies (in the red).

I have tested this out over the last week playing sevreral games as Germany.

So to get a great leader.

1. Attack a city
2. wait until the last defender in the city is standing, then attack with your chosen elite unit (and cross your fingers).
3. Luckily if all goes well there is a 1/16 chance that that Elite unit will generate a leader whilst taking the city. I believ this is the only way you have a 1/16 chance to make a GL.

DeepO · July 26, 2002, 08:29

You never had a leader appearing in the open? I had leaders in the open, both on attack and defense. I'm very certain, as I got 2 of them last night, both on attack... I think your theory is flawed

DeepO

Artifex · July 26, 2002, 08:37

I never have them appear in the open. They always appear in the situation I described to a T.

Solver · July 26, 2002, 08:45

It's just you... I have generated leaders in the open, and I have generated leaders by attacking yet another defender in city.

Harovan · July 26, 2002, 08:47

I saw a GL generating in the open lately (the AU-101 game). Not my GL, but the AI's. I attacked a greek elite infantry in the jungle with a veteran tank. The tank died, and suddenly I saw 2 units on the infantry's place instead of one before. The 2nd was a GL ("Hector"). Sure, that I put all my effort in to kill it

.

Artifex · July 26, 2002, 08:48

Hmm. Guess I'll change my theory to "I'm unlucky".

DeepO · July 26, 2002, 08:49

But of course, if you start to believe something, and then save your elites just for that specific situation, there is no way you will have another GL appearing... if you really want proof you have to almost exclusively test other situations than what you believe to be true. Proof by refutation, I believe the English term for it is

DeepO

DeepO · July 26, 2002, 08:53

Sir Ralph, I saw over 5 AI GLs appearing last night... once it is finished you should try the MT V scenario, it is brutal. 5 GLs in 4 turns, while I got 2 myself, all in the open. But those 4 AI GLs could not be stopped without too much losses, so a few turns later 4 MA armies would have appeared... if only I could have hold my territory this far

DeepO

Gastric ReFlux · July 26, 2002, 10:19

GLs will definitely appear in the open. I once had Xerxes send a stack of doom into my territory (it had about 150 infantry, riflemen, and immortals). I pounded it with artillery, and in one turn of dismantling the stack, I generated 4 GLs. The first one got made into an army which then was victorious. The second then rush-built the Heroic Epic, and I believe the next two hurried factories in two cities.

candidgamera · July 26, 2002, 12:34

Gastric Reflex:

Thought that you could only have one GL at a time - that not so from your comments?

Self: last game during a 30 year war with Russians and British as Americans generated 3-4 GL's in the same 3-4 square area. Later founded a city nearby named "Sacrifice River" in commemoration.

RedBird · July 26, 2002, 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by candidgamera
Thought that you could only have one GL at a time - that not so from your comments?

Only one at a time, but not only one per turn. There is no limit to the number per turn. Just use the GL so your leader box is empty again (in the mil advisor screen), and you're ready to go (provided you don't use an elite which has already gen'd a GL).

Gastric ReFlux · July 26, 2002, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by candidgamera
Gastric Reflex:

Thought that you could only have one GL at a time - that not so from your comments?

Self: last game during a 30 year war with Russians and British as Americans generated 3-4 GL's in the same 3-4 square area. Later founded a city nearby named "Sacrifice River" in commemoration.

You need to be wise in the way of using them. When I got the first leader, he immediately formed an army. Then the next immediately ran back, over railroads, to a city and built the Heroic Epic. And so on. Get one, use it as fast you can so your elites have chances again to produce GLs.

RedBird · July 26, 2002, 13:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Get one, use it as fast you can so your elites have chances again to produce GLs.

Just so long as you remember not to use the same elites.

Blake · July 26, 2002, 19:20

I've never had a GL generated by attacking in the open. (I have generated them by attacking cities, but NOT always taking the city).

My best example of a GL generated by defending was a single elite musketeer in the middle of the AI territory (he got evicted into a single tile of neutral ground, two dozen tiles from friendly territory). So I fortified him and forgot. Many years pass and I go to war, he gets attacked. He generates a GL. He gets attacked some more. He dies, along with the GL. Well, not a happy ending. But he sure did generate the GL

And I've definitely got GL's when defending cities from infantry stacks of doom.

Boris Godunov · July 27, 2002, 17:11

In one of my early games, I recall getting a GL when an elite unit of mine was attacked. Maybe my memory is faulty, but does anyone else recollect that happening? Lately, I've only earned them while on the attack.

But yes, you can certainly get them out in open combat.

kring · July 27, 2002, 17:26

Quote:

Originally posted by RedBird

Just so long as you remember not to use the same elites.

With the 1.29f patch, an ELITE unit will have the star * after Elite, like this Elite* denoting the unit has generated a GL. Also, you will have the option of renaming the unit as a further assist.

zorbop · July 27, 2002, 23:44

i think i have gotten them when defendilng also, but not for a few weeks... i have gotten a few in the open. but i usually only get them if the unit is the last defender or defeats the last defender in a city.
i also get FAR more GL's if the unit is a UU, and not just because uu's win more or i happen to build more of them. i think being a uu has a lot to do with it...

kring · July 28, 2002, 00:33

According to Firaxis, it doesn't say that UU makes a difference, just whether or not you are attacking/defending, modified if you have the Heroic Epic.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike B., does it look like the odds 1/12 and 1/16 are applied under the correct conditions (before/after Heroic Epic) for generating a leader?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Odds with Heroic Epic = 1/12
Odds without Heroic Epic = 1/16
The odds are halved for defenders (1/24 and 1/32).

Mike Breitkreutz
Programmer
FIRAXIS Games

If you build a lot of UU, then you will get more leaders that way just because that is what you are attacking/defending with.

seano1 · July 28, 2002, 17:30

Well you naturally notice getting more leaders in situations where you win more combats. And are the most combats? Were stacks of units attack cities of course?

One thing I’ve noticed is that I’ve only once gotten a leader fighting barbarians

Chad · July 28, 2002, 22:05

Hmmm.... So that talking monkey.. Is it yours?????

Conqueror · July 29, 2002, 03:52

Quote:

Originally posted by seano1
One thing I’ve noticed is that I’ve only once gotten a leader fighting barbarians

Wow so it IS possible to gain leaders when fighting against barbarians ? I tought i wasnt possible at all ? Has anyone else gotten leaders from barbarian battles ? I sure havent. Well thats maybe my bad luck again.

Btw. is it possible to get a GL with a Warrior unit ? I have never had a GL with a warrior but have had GLs with every other unit i can think of. I specifically saved about 10 elite warriors in a game a while ago and finished dozens of enemy spearmen/archers with them, but got no GL. Maybe bad luck stroke again.

The Pioneer · July 29, 2002, 05:19

I have got GL on open ground not too often but I have. I usually get t hem when attcking cities but I also got them when I defended out in the open!

Seano1 ar you sure about that? Can you post a save? I am pretty sure that there is no GL generation from attacking/defending barbarians.

So long....

DeepO · July 29, 2002, 07:50

Re: getting GL from barbarians: it used to be in the first, original release, but was removed with the first patch, I think. IIRC, I got my first ever leader from barbarians, on defense. But I lost it when the rest of the stack attacked

DeepO

seano1 · August 5, 2002, 14:31

Quote:

Originally posted by The Pioneer
I have got GL on open ground not too often but I have. I usually get t hem when attcking cities but I also got them when I defended out in the open!

Seano1 ar you sure about that? Can you post a save? I am pretty sure that there is no GL generation from attacking/defending barbarians.

So long....

Actually, I’m not really sure. I just have a sort of vague memory.

Theseus · August 5, 2002, 15:26

No GLs from barbs.

Location doesn't matter, other than in the context of defense bonuses.

No greater likelihood for UUs, other than combat bonuses.
___________________

With that out of the way, a short primer in generating early GLs:

The setting, Ancient Era, having researched Bronze Working, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding.

In considering the AI civs around, look for a bottleneck with an adjacent mountain. For instance, I did this yesterday using el mencey's 100x100 Earth map... there is a 1 Desert tile bottleneck at the NW corner of India, with water to the south and a mountain to the north.

If there are any foreign cities nearby, raze them.

Use that mountain as a forward battle station; in my case, I used a 2X Sword Army as the defender, but you could just as well use a bunch of Swordsmen and Spearmen (although the ZOC free shot from the Army helps).

As single enemy troops stream by, keep hitting them with the same Horsemen, over and over again. Retreat back onto the mountain to heal up. For stacks, use vet Horsemen as fabric softeners, then use elite Swordsmen to KILL, and then mop up the last unit with an elite Horseman.

Just a matter of time.

steven8r · August 5, 2002, 16:06

I got my very first GL while defending. It freaked me out because I didn't know about them then.

Since then, I've generated several GL's-all from attacking, no more from defense. Some of them were from attacking cities, some from open combat.

Location doesn't seem to matter. I guess it was just luck (or lack thereof).

steven8r · August 5, 2002, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Conqueror

Wow so it IS possible to gain leaders when fighting against barbarians ? I tought i wasnt possible at all ? Has anyone else gotten leaders from barbarian battles ? I sure havent. Well thats maybe my bad luck again.

Btw. is it possible to get a GL with a Warrior unit ? I have never had a GL with a warrior but have had GLs with every other unit i can think of. I specifically saved about 10 elite warriors in a game a while ago and finished dozens of enemy spearmen/archers with them, but got no GL. Maybe bad luck stroke again.

RE: Warriors--see the AU 101 thread in the Strategy Forum. Someone (sorry don't remember whom) got a GL w/ warriors.

RE: Barbarians--no longer possible to get GL from Barbs, however, you can get to Elite status, then get GL from attacking/defending another civ.