Hidden nationality units AI bug

muxec · July 27, 2002, 10:03

I added hidden nat. land unit. When i use it i see the huge AI bug: even if i capture the city with HN unit AI cannt guess whose unit.

Akaoz · July 27, 2002, 10:09

Okay...

But it doesn't mind attacking an "unknown" does it?

miccofl · July 27, 2002, 18:27

Quote:

even if i capture the city

When you captured the city you declared your nationality - it became your civ's city with your hn unit as the conqueror; your cover was blown.

SpencerH · July 28, 2002, 08:27

miccofl is right but it doesnt cause war when you capture a city in that way.

Willem · July 28, 2002, 11:46

Your nationality isn't truly hidden, since all civs still show their colours. But the AI civs will get rather upset diplomatically if you start using them. They can't declare war if you use them however, and it's not a declaration of war if you whack one of their units, or cities.

I suggest you use them sparingly since in my experience, the AI takes an "eye for an eye" approach with them. You might find yourself continually fighting them off. And guard your Workers/Settlers well!

miccofl · July 28, 2002, 18:32

Makes you wonder what would happen if you gave workers the hidden nationality attribute...

Krayzeenbk · July 28, 2002, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Your nationality isn't truly hidden, since all civs still show their colours. But the AI civs will get rather upset diplomatically if you start using them. They can't declare war if you use them however, and it's not a declaration of war if you whack one of their units, or cities.

I suggest you use them sparingly since in my experience, the AI takes an "eye for an eye" approach with them. You might find yourself continually fighting them off. And guard your Workers/Settlers well!

Hidden nationality units don't show their colors to other players (only your HN units will show your color to you) - all enemy HN units look barbarian.

A HN mortar that I was using to fire on one civ had to defend itself from a stack of allied troops once because they decided it was a threat and tried to remove it... I bombarded the stack for several turns while retreating back to the safety of a city, and the AI player didn't get angry at me one bit. I'm not sure there's a diplomatic penalty for using HN units (although I've never captured a city with them).

As for continually fighting them off, yes you will have to do that... I added a 6/3/3 HN Guerilla unit that needed Rubber to be built, and as soon as my allies researched Replaceable Parts I had to relieve them of their rubber to stop them from attacking me

And yes, muxec, the AI will not be able to figure out who captured the city if someone launches a hidden nationality unit attack.

Willem · July 28, 2002, 20:07

It's not a good idea to give 0 units a hidden nationality. Unless of course you want to make the game ridiculously easy. What happens is the AI can't attack it, so you could wander around it's empire with impunity, and pillage whatever you like. The AI units will even stack up on the same square as the 0 unit. At least that's what happened when I tried it on my Explorer quite awhile back, and I'm presuming it will work the same way with Workers.

Willem · July 28, 2002, 20:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Krayzeenbk

Hidden nationality units don't show their colors to other players (only your HN units will show your color to you) - all enemy HN units look barbarian.

Are you playing with the team colour disc on? That's the way I play, and I've always been able to see what civ the units belong to. Unless that's been changed in the last couple of patches.

Quote:

I'm not sure there's a diplomatic penalty for using HN units (although I've never captured a city with them).

There's definitely a diplomatic penalty for using them. Once I start with them, my neighbours become furious with me in no time.

Quote:

And yes, muxec, the AI will not be able to figure out who captured the city if someone launches a hidden nationality unit attack.

I'm pretty sure it knows, it just can't do anything about it.

Krayzeenbk · July 28, 2002, 20:21

I'm not playing with the team color disc option... I'll have to try that.

As for the diplomatic penalty, I didn't get it... Maybe something else caused the furious attitude you got from your neighbors? I'm fairly sure about this because I did pretty much nothing else during the turns when I used the mortar (I didn't even improve my land, I started on a small island and was done improving heh). The English (the ones attacking the mortar) were Polite before, during, and after all of this was going on. The Iroquois (the ones whose land I was attacking with the mortar) were Annoyed.

Krayzeenbk · July 29, 2002, 00:29

Here's an interesting thing that just happened to me. 3-4 guerillas (HN) were fortified in a jungle in enemy territory with 2 captured workers building a fortress under them. Eventually the civ that I was encroaching on made me remove the workers, but the HN units went with them.

This isn't really a bug at all, but I don't think that hidden nationality units should be removed from enemy territory if they are stacked with normal units - even though its obvious whose units they are.

Willem · July 29, 2002, 00:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Krayzeenbk
I'm not playing with the team color disc option... I'll have to try that.

As for the diplomatic penalty, I didn't get it... Maybe something else caused the furious attitude you got from your neighbors? I'm fairly sure about this because I did pretty much nothing else during the turns when I used the mortar (I didn't even improve my land, I started on a small island and was done improving heh). The English (the ones attacking the mortar) were Polite before, during, and after all of this was going on. The Iroquois (the ones whose land I was attacking with the mortar) were Annoyed.

Well it sounds like you haven't been very aggressive with those units. Like I said, the AI seems to have an eye for an eye approach with them. If I use them sparingly, then I can still maintain some amicable diplomatic relations. However, if I start taking over it's cities, and making a general nuisance of myself, it most definitely takes a dim view towards me! And I usually end up with wave after wave of the other civ's units down my throat.

Back when we still had the "multi" cheat, I had a look at the Indians, to see how they were handling the new colorless units I had created. Well bloody hell but Gandhi didn't have at least 2/3 of his cities producing a colorless unit that had my Cavalry quaking in fear at the time! And he had a fairly sizable empire, with me as his only neighbour. At the time, I thought I'd created a monster.

Willem · July 29, 2002, 00:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Krayzeenbk

This isn't really a bug at all, but I don't think that hidden nationality units should be removed from enemy territory if they are stacked with normal units - even though its obvious whose units they are.

I have no problem with that. If you agree to move your units, that should mean all your units. And just having a colorless unit is already an advantage for the human player, since the AI will never be able to use them as effectively. I think it's a small price to pay myself.

Krayzeenbk · July 29, 2002, 00:39

Hehehehe

Guerillas (the unit that I play with) are evil, and are hard to stop once unleashed... It's made the mid-Industrial age a huge guerilla slaughter

. Everybody is furious with me now, but I can't tell you that it's because of the guerilla warfare, since I've been at war with everyone at least once over cities captured by guerillas.

It's all about who can pillage the rubber tiles

Btw, about the eye-for-an-eye approach: I doubt this is it since the English were the ones who pioneered this in the first place... I was slow to build guerillas this game, but the English built them as soon as they could. My closest ally, who definetely was Gracious at the time, attacked me from behind... And now there is a vicious undeclared war between everyone.