Flaws of Civ 3 and possible solutions - very long post

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by player1



But,

Land units with both offense and defense flags use just one strtegy for thier whole lifetime selected when its buuilt.

Maybe same applies to ships?

Yes, some will be Sea Power ships (and use their guns) and some will be missile transport ships (and use their missiles). If you want a ship class to be exclusively a missile transport then only check that flag.

[hexagonian]

...and my two cents...

Only one level of tile improvements and no sea improvements such as nets.

Infinite Railroad sleaze/clutter, which eliminates any true strategic thinking in the modern age. (Why commit your forces to a front and risk weakening another front when railroads move your forces instantly to where they may be needed)

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Solver
. . .Culture flips – I just can’t stay away from this. I like culture, I like flipping, I take it as another challenge, but I find it pretty ridiculous that units in a city that flipped get lost. They should, for instance, be sent out to your closest city that is at least 6 tiles away from the city that flipped, or be sent back to your capitol, or do something! It’s pretty illogical and sometimes not quite fun to see units just disappear in the air.

. . . but if Firaxis hired players as testers, some of these problems would be non existent. I still love Civ 3, and still want PtW, but I believe that constructive criticism that I herein tried to provide helps the players and the developers.

I find it amazing that some people bend over backwards trying to tell us how much they "love" Civ 3 just because they criticize parts of it. The game deserves criticism, and no apologies are needed - except from Firaxis to us.

Culture Flipping is indeed an ILLOGICAL, NON-HISTORICAL "challenge". "Ridiculous" is a word I would use for it, also.

But if you think it is bad now, just wait until people have "historical" scenarios finished, on, say, World War Two, and there is some weird and crazy flip that never could have happened in reality. You can NOT have Flipping, or "razing", in "historical" scenarios. Flipping is Fantasy, not History.

As for players as testers, I don't think anyone playtested this game before release in November. We have all been beta testers for almost nine months.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Coracle
Culture Flipping is indeed an ILLOGICAL, NON-HISTORICAL "challenge". "Ridiculous" is a word I would use for it, also.

Hey, Coracle, how did you enjoy the vacations?

Now, seriously... you mean you don't like culture flipping? Really? You see, I am so glad you've told us (in this thread, too), we might easily mis-categorize you otherwise...

[khyron]

No, vondrack, I think he really means it this time. After all, he's had several days time away from the forums to really sit and let his vitriol slowly boil over. After so many days, I'm shocked that his display was so tame.

Coracle...y'see, we don't mind having variations of opinion about a game. Even, dare I say, ambivalence about some things. We can see the good with the bad. I can see your vacation has done little to sharpen your skills of observation....

Now. To business. Helicopters. I've run 'em through the editor, made 'em mobile air units. Just one little thing. Am I missing something, because I would have thought that air units can't use tile improvements like roads, but my choppers did, getting a movement bonus. Having never played with the editor really until reading this thread (thank you for expanding my horizons, Solver ), I can't say I'm totally familiar with all its functions. So any pointers in the right direction are appreciated.

BTW, swerving off-topic again, naming ships in the editor rocks the casbah. I knew you could name land units, but naming ships is the best, far as I'm concerned. (Sue me, I wanted to be a navy carrier pilot. Damn my heart condition. )

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Coracle
I find it amazing that some people bend over backwards trying to tell us how much they "love" Civ 3 just because they criticize parts of it. The game deserves criticism, and no apologies are needed - except from Firaxis to us.

Just BTW... have you ever tried to tell your girlfriend that you do not exactly like this or that... which, by chance, she does or wants... without telling her first how much you love her?

Doing the same with Civ3 is perhaps an unconscious reflection of an acquired habit... not an attempt to apologize, but to make sure you are not going to be flamed for saying something you do not mean bad...

[Ming]

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by khyron
Now. To business. Helicopters. I've run 'em through the editor, made 'em mobile air units. Just one little thing. Am I missing something, because I would have thought that air units can't use tile improvements like roads, but my choppers did, getting a movement bonus. Having never played with the editor really until reading this thread (thank you for expanding my horizons, Solver ), I can't say I'm totally familiar with all its functions. So any pointers in the right direction are appreciated.

As of 1.29f, all non-immobile air units automatically get Treat All Terrain As Roads. This makes for a very useful helicopter. Change its move to 2, remove the immobile flag, remove the recon and rebase options (otherwise it'd be cheating), add radar and detect invisible (to make up for removing the recon flag). Voila! Transport Helicopter done better. It can carry a foot unit anywhere.

[khyron]

Thank you for the suggestion, WarpStorm. I've been tinkering around with the thing in my "Test Track" bic, trying to make it work well, and all the options disoriented me. Thanks for the direction.

But the only thing I can't seem to cure with the modified helos is something I'd like to point to as a flaw. I can find nothing in the editor that stop a mobile air unit from gaining the advantage of using railroads. Now, while I possibly can see rapidly moving them to the front as part of a mobilization effort, I don't buy it so much when they're been loaded with their unit/units. Probably just me going overboard; the infantry could be on the same train as the choppers. Just something about seeing it on the screen rubs me wrong. *proceeds to a corner to pick some nits off something else*

*hasn't been around long, but long enough to have heard of Mingapulco* Apologies, Ming, for my previous straying.

[RedBird]

Originally posted by zulu9812
sorry, it should read "Transport Only Tactical Missiles, Transport Only Aircraft".

But then how do you classify CM's as Aircraft? There is no "Aircraft" flag that I can see. Do you use the Air Class button?

[Zylka]

[GeneralTacticus]

Culture Flipping is indeed an ILLOGICAL, NON-HISTORICAL "challenge". "Ridiculous" is a word I would use for it, also.

What I've posted at CFC and what you have yet to respond to:

The Ionian Greeks flipped from Persia. Ancient Israel flipped from the Romans. The West Bank and Gaza have been trying to culture-flip from Israel for years. Israel itself flipped from the Arabs. Persia flipped from the empire of the Medes. Kosovo attempted to flip from Serbia to Albania. Slovenia flipped out of Yugoslavia. America flipped away from Britain. Various tribes in the Aztec empire flipped to Spain when the invasion began. Texas flipped from Mexico. Both Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 flipped out of the Soviet sphere, and the Soviets sent in troops to reclaim them. Care to elaborate on how these are NOT historical examples of culture-flipping?

[Chronus]

This
Threadjacking
will STOP NOW!

Wow! What the dickens was that?!

I like the idea of "signs" that a city may flip . . . preferably having it fall into civil disorder instead of a message popping up and telling you that the threat of flipping is near. I too also suspect that many of the flip haters don't so much as hate the flipping but, rather, the suddeness of it. Then again, I should let them speak for themselves.

By the way, take a look at that culture flipping poll. Considering all the complaints that I've heard about this particular topic, the overall acceptance/tolerance is higher than I thought. Perhaps it truly is a case of the vast minority doing the vast majority of the complaining?

GeneralTacticus - I also have yet to see an explanation for the recent breakup of the U.S.S.R. NO MILITARY ACTION occured in this great event. And isn't Belarus thinking about rejoining with Russia? (if it hasn't already happened?) That would be more "flipping". Some may argue that "well, it broke up for political reasons". But doesn't culture have a great influence on politics? Just look at how our politicians tell us what we want to hear. Perhaps it's not the culture flipping event that bugs some people but rather, it is the "culture flip" title. I find "culture flipping" much easier to play the game by when it is seen as any kind of peaceful transfer of land/cities not covered in diplomacy/trading. Another argument that may be used against my USSR illustration above is the fact that the individual regions went off on their own instead of joining another "civ". Granted, but do we really expect Firaxis to program Civ 3 in such a way that it keeps track of all these new civs? The argument then is not so much about culture flipping but rather, how many civs Civ 3 should support? (I know, another can of worms)

Anyway, just my $5 worth. I hope this wasn't threadjacking. Culture flipping does seem to be part of the topic.

[zulu9812]

Originally posted by RedBird
But then how do you classify CM's as Aircraft? There is no "Aircraft" flag that I can see. Do you use the Air Class button?

Originally posted by zulu9812
Here's what I did with Cruise Missiles:

Unit: V-1
Cost: 6 shields
Type: Air
Bombard Str.: 10
Bombard ROF: 4
Flags: Immobile, Cruise Missile, Tactical Missile
Requires: Rocketry, Aluminium
Upgrades to: Cruise Missile

Unit: Cruise Missile
Cost: 12 shields
Type: Air
Bombard Str.: 16
Bombard ROF: 8
Flags: Immobile, Cruise Missile, Tactical Missile
Requires: Miniaturization, Aluminium

As you can see, the type of unit is given as Air.

Originally posted by Zylka

Ah thank you

[Hurricane]

About the Marines: they have a small but vital use, which of course is their amphibious ability.

The situation where they are best is when you are about to invade a new continent with a strong enemy. You have lots of tanks, inf and artillery, of course, but all these will have to unload and stay on the beach waiting for the enemy counter-attack before being able to do anything. Instead of waiting for the massacre, attack an enemy city with a transport (or 2) full of Marines and capture the enemy city. Move in transports and unload inside the city, and your tanks can immediately move out and attack neighboring cities.

[The Templar]

I think the modern era is in need of improvement.

>>SHAMELESS PLUG<<

And I think I've fixed it. Check out v4 of my space race mod. (Click the link in my signature.)

[Solver]

The situation where they are best is when you are about to invade a new continent with a strong enemy. You have lots of tanks, inf and artillery, of course, but all these will have to unload and stay on the beach waiting for the enemy counter-attack before being able to do anything. Instead of waiting for the massacre, attack an enemy city with a transport (or 2) full of Marines and capture the enemy city. Move in transports and unload inside the city, and your tanks can immediately move out and attack neighboring cities.

Two transports full of Marines would really be what you need to capture a city defended with mech.inf, given marines' attack value of 8. Better to have 2 more transports of tanks...

Coracle - I can't believe I'm agreeing with you. While I really love Civ 3, I don't want flipping in Word War 2 scenario (something I await to play)... seeing a Baltic city flip to Germany... nooooo!

[HappySunShine]

About the ES thing...I play AOC all the time. I know the people that work for ES to play test the game. The difference between ES and Firaxis/inforgrames is enormous. When ES has a problem with balance or something they feel can be done better they hire experts from the AOC community to go play test the game and work it out. Their methods obviously work far better than the Firaxis approach (release the game and then beta test it) considering that AOC has an enormous following. Even now when AOM is about to come out and the AOC/AOK has been out for 3+ years they still are making balance changes to the game and patching it to insure the life of the game. Compare the expansion pack for civ3 to the expansion pack for AOK. This "expansion" pack for civ3 is a joke. All we're getting is what any other game would have had included in the original product. Putting MP as a new option in an expansion pack? I don't think I've ever heard of something so ludicrous before. The difference between AOK and AOC is incredible, they are two completely different games. The only difference between civ3 and PTW is that we are simply getting what should have been in civ3. There is no real improvement or expansion on the game. But I guess that's why ES is such a giant and Infogrames is just a small time publisher.

[Solver]

HappySunshine, you're missing it a bit. Sure, PtW is a bit strage, with including scenarios and MP in the expansion, and AoC was huge over AoK... but ES develops the game, Infogrames doesn't. I don't like Infogrames, I like Firaxis.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Solver
HappySunshine, you're missing it a bit. Sure, PtW is a bit strage, with including scenarios and MP in the expansion, and AoC was huge over AoK... but ES develops the game, Infogrames doesn't. I don't like Infogrames, I like Firaxis.

I don't really like Infogrames either, I think it's because they have such a weird name.....

[Zylka]

Too much