When the Soviet Union comes back.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Frogger
I suggest you reread their propaganda. In their minds Jews were both bankers (they hated "speculative" capitalism, but embraced "investor" capitalism) and also the spearhead of the Communist revolution. Nobody ever accused them of being logical...

You should read your economics books instead of saying stupid things! Capitalism is capitalism.

Why do you defend communism?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Dalgetti

not quite. The Nazis allowed the German capitalists to take over the jewish capitalists' factories. also , not all jews were rich.

The Nazi government controlled what these German "capitalists" did. That isn't capitalism.

[Az]

"And that is where you are wrong... the Russian middle class is booming under Putin..."

what middle class?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Heresson
Russia isn't prosperous... It can be in the future thanks to mr Putin but it isn't...
Lets put it this way; in USSR everyone were poor, but everyone -despite all the political opppresion- could be sure they'll survive. Under democracy, some people got very very very rich and they held the rating on average level, but generally most of people got even poorer, to a status that can't be worse, and no Putin will ever change it. For Russian oligarchs and perhaps middle class someday, democratic
changes were a good thing, but I doubt that for most of Russians..

Precisely.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Frogger
Please provide evidence of them being socialists, moomin.

I'm glad you asked. Here are some juicy socialist paragraphs straight from the program the National Socialist Worker's Party of Germany:

"We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.
The breaking of the slavery of interest.

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State."

Seems pretty darn socialist to me. If you exchanged Germany and German to Soviet and Russian where appropriate, all this could have been written by Lenin, Trotsky or any other Soviet socialist. Heck, most of this, except perhaps for the outright nationalisation and expropration demands could be from any present-day European Social Democrat manifesto.

[Heresson]

Fez- You're too vulnerable to any propaganda it seems.
Anyway read what I write. I wrote that democratic changes
may be good for the oligarchs and someday for the middle class, but not for the majority of Russians...

(should I repeat it one more time?)

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
"And that is where you are wrong... the Russian middle class is booming under Putin..."

what middle class?

The middle class, commie.

Heresson, democracy is much better for Russia than illogical communism.

[monkspider]

Instead of suggesting people to read economics books every other post, I suggest you reread your 8th grade history text if you still think the nazis were Communist Fezzie ol' boy.

[Ecthy]

paiktis, please answer my question, it's important

[KrazyHorse]

Respond in a few hours, moomin. Somthing in the real world's come up...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by monkspider
Instead of suggesting people to read economics books every other post, I suggest you reread your 8th grade history text if you still think the nazis were Communist Fezzie ol' boy.

Attacked yet again by a commie who wants to violate every single law of economics. The nazis were not capitalist.

[Az]

The Nazi government controlled what these German "capitalists" did. That isn't capitalism

once again, not quite. I am not saying that there was a system of a free market, but the system was in no way socialist, classes differences weren't being erased, and the factory-owners still got rich.

[Heresson]

Communism is the most logical and the most obvious thing on earth. The problem is that people grown up in capitalism
aren't able to get free from its influence and that's why I doubt that communism can be built in bigger community;
if You could gather all the true communists from all over the war and give them one city I'm sure it'd be flourishing.
But forcing communism in some state means that people not believing in this idea will have to (pretend) to work according to it, and anyway will their children be communists too? And is there someone who can be called true communist?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Dalgetti

once again, not quite. I am not saying that there was a system of a free market, but the system was in no way socialist, classes differences weren't being erased, and the factory-owners still got rich.

Well fine.

But I am free market take it or leave it. Neo-classicist.

[Giancarlo]

Heresson, for the last ****ing time: Communism is illogical because it violates the laws of economics. From the law of elasticity to the law of supply and demand. Bureaucrats cannot set prices.

[Heresson]

Who You are to say that?
Anyway, of course they can

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Heresson
Who You are to say that?
Anyway, of course they can

No they can't. It infringes on the law of supply and demand therefore is illogical. Therefore it causes severe lack of supply and could cause massive shortages.

[DinoDoc]

11-8-18

Send to Penza To Comrades Kuraev, Bosh, Minkin and other Penza communists

Comrades! The revolt by the five kulak volost's must be suppressed without mercy. The interest of the entire revolution demands this, because we have now before us our final decisive battle "with the kulaks." We need to set an example.

1. You need to hang (hang without fail, so that the public sees) at least 100 notorious kulaks, the rich, and the bloodsuckers.
2. Publish their names.
3. Take away all of their grain.
4. Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's telegram.

This needs to be accomplished in such a way, that people for hundreds of miles around will see, tremble, know and scream out: let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks.

Telegraph us acknowledging receipt and execution of this.

Yours, Lenin

P.S. Use your toughest people for this.

Such a kind and generous person that Lenin was.

[Az]

oh , Fez, the Russian Middle class, estimated at 6 million from St.Petersburg , and Moscow. yes. It's BOOOMING.

[Az]

DinoDoc : what is your point?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
oh , Fez, the Russian Middle class, estimated at 6 million from St.Petersburg , and Moscow. yes. It's BOOOMING.

Infact it is growing... but needs more work. Putin is trying hard to improve it... and GDP growth averaged about +5% - +7% for the last couple of years.

[Az]

wow. That's great. after the fall of around 40-60% from Soviet Era GDP , it gained a bit. and that's ignoring the fact that socialists are providing better education and medcare.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
DinoDoc : what is your point?

Nothing in particular. I just love the idealized version of the USSR many people, including yourself, cling to so desperately. I especially like the statements that if Trotsky (a man who wrote a book justifing the use of State terror) had won the power struggle with Stalin everything would have been OK.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
wow. That's great. after the fall of around 40-60% from Soviet Era GDP , it gained a bit. and that's ignoring the fact that socialists are providing better education and medcare.

No, the Soviet era GDP was technically illogical. It couldn't sustain itself either way and was shrinking in the 80s anyways.

The education system was never that great in the soviet union, it was always brainwashing people.

[Az]

Communism is the most logical and the most obvious thing on earth. The problem is that people grown up in capitalism
aren't able to get free from its influence and that's why I doubt that communism can be built in bigger community;
if You could gather all the true communists from all over the war and give them one city I'm sure it'd be flourishing.
But forcing communism in some state means that people not believing in this idea will have to (pretend) to work according to it, and anyway will their children be communists too? And is there someone who can be called true communist?

that's what brainwas... I mean education is for.

[Giancarlo]

I want to say this one last thing before I go off to dinner:

THE USSR IS DEAD! LIVE WITH IT! DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! OKAY? IT WAS ILLOGICAL. AND YOU SUPPORTING IT, DALGETTI AND OTHERS, ARE SUPPORTING A DEAD SYSTEM.

[Stefu]

Gad, the eternal debate. Were Nazis capitalists or socialists? It almost reminds you of one of those typical days when school had sport classes. Your team picks the Nazis! No, your team picks them! No, your team! Your team! YOUR TEAM! YOUR TEAM!

Moomin, you may quote as much of Nazi platform as you want. It doesn't matter. When it came to getting votes, Hitler was the friend of the working man, a true Christian, not to forget a man of peace who just wants to unify the German people. When it came to real life, that wasn't true, of course. Hitler in public vs. Hitler in private were wholly different deals.

Non-Moomins, it might come as a bit of a shock, but being supported by Big Biz doesn't necessarily mean you are a capitalist. (Whoa!) Big biz, after all, uses the democracy in it's rather uncapitalistic pursuit to gather as much grummint money as possible, not to forget all manner of nifty tariffs to prevent foreign competition from threatening their markets. And Nazis offered extra perks - slave labour, stability, not to forget not being Communists. Businesses were then kept on a tight state leash, of course.

Were Nazis capitalists? Or socialists? Neither, says me. I distinctly remember seeing Hitler quote stating that if socialism worked, Nazis would use that, and if capitalism worked, Nazis would use that. "Use" is a correct word - Nazis weren't certainly concerned about freedom of the market, and true concern for working man died with Strasser and his ilk. What drove Nazis were their repugnant racial theories and relentless expansionism - economic policies were useful as far as they served this doctrine, ie. keeping people well-to-do enough not to make any troubling questions and making it possible to have a decent war footing and keep the munitions coming.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Nothing in particular. I just love the idealized version of the USSR many people, including yourself, cling to so desperately. I especially like the statements that if Trotsky (a man who wrote a book justifing the use of State terror) had won the power struggle with Stalin everything would have been OK.

And of course you would know Moneypenny andothers who have actually lived there would not. That's so... logical

[Az]

Dinodoc : so , to disprove it you post an alledged letter from the russian civil war? I am posting about post war SU , mostly.

[Az]

Stefu