Immigrants

[Monk]

If some immigrant to the US doesn't want to learn English, let him. As long as the wast majority of the rest of the country doesn't addapt and learn [input obscure language spoken by less than 10K humans] it's his problem.

If he's a Turk he could move to Kreuzberg.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
There's nothing more un-American than telling people to get out if they disagree with how things are...

Ha! Ha! Ha! Do they teach American history where you live Boris? Ever here of the "Alien and Sedition Acts", or the "Know Nothings"?

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Loif
Well Canada wouldn't exist without immigrants. Neither would most other countries on the face of God's green earth. I say we should welcome immigrants and not tell them that they have to conform to what we believe in. As long as they are obeying the law of the country that they immigrate to, why should this be a problem? Are we so worried that we may be assimilated into their culture that we need to stamp it out? Humans never cease to amaze me.

I would like to make some remarks:

I am living in one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Nevertheless we accept about ~20,000 immigrants on average every year. (this number is just an intelligent guess; please don't attack me on the accuracy of the number)
The population of my country would be stable or decrease without immigration.
Since the country is clearly overpopulated -about ~16 million people are living in an area a bit larger than Maryland (~14,000 sq.mi.)- most inhabitants of this country would prefer to allow less immigrants.

Neverthless more immigrants are on average admitted than to most other European countries, though most of these countries are larger and less densely populated.
Most are admitted because they claim to be political refugees, though one estimates that about 80% of them have in fact come here for economic reasons.
(I don't blame them for it, but it is useful to acknowledge the truth)

Holland and the Netherlands have a tradition of tolerance but we have begin to recognise that too much tolerance in the past was not a wise policy.

Immigrants who do not speak the Dutch language well do not have the slightest chance to get a job, so they remain a isolated group dependent on social security.
As a result, many children of these immigrants are also deprived and not well-integrated.

Now conditions have deteriorated so strongly that we have "white" schools for the children of Dutch parents, and "black" schools for the children of immigrants.
This is NOT the official policy of the government -on the contrary- but Dutch parents tend to avoid schools with too many children with a language deficiency.

Unemployment, poverty and isolation of many immigrant groups have resulted in increased crime and violence, which traditionally were quite low.

Some immigrants bring many customs and ideas with them that are completely in defiance of Dutch tolerance.
In fundamentalist mosques (fortunately only a minority of all mosques) it was almost daily practice that an imam would thunder against homosexuality, equal rights for men and women and the wickedness of Western society.
So violence against gay people has increased tremendously, though we were the first country to validate gay marriage.

The women of fundamentalist groups were often locked up in their home, forced to wear a headcloth, married off at a very young age, circumcised etc.
And because of the isolation of these women in particular, they remained completely dependent on their husbands. So in part this oppression remains hidden, because these women will not speak out, even when they would have mastered the language.

Yes, fortunately there are a lot of immigrants who prosper, so we shouldn't be too pessimistic about the future.

Nevertheless it is my opinion that immigrants should learn the language of the country as soon as possible, in their own interest.
Nor should the preaching of hatred be allowed!
(it is actually forbidden but most Dutchmen do not understand Chinese, Arabic etc,)

I even think it should be tried to discourage segregation in education. Education is vital for success in Dutch society; our economy hardly needs badly educated workers, since the services sector are the dominant part of the economy.

My main message: it is in the interest of the immigrants to be forced -to a certain degree- to adapt to Dutch society.

[Heresson]

I don't have anything against any immigration until it counts in permiles (promiles? whatever) not percents of population.

[DanS]

"Well there are people who have lived in Puerto Rican communities all their life here in NYC who dont even know that being born here makes them american citizens."

Being born in Puerto Rico makes you a U.S. citizen, dufus. The only reason a Puerto Rican would be an alien is so that they don't have to pay federal taxes.

[sparkplug]

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

The inevitable ''love it or leave it'' arguement. Well, if you don't like the fact that I am going to continue living here, maybe you should get the **** out.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Ha! Ha! Ha! Do they teach American history where you live Boris? Ever here of the "Alien and Sedition Acts", or the "Know Nothings"?

Of course, I was speaking in the "ideal" sense, not in the nefarious actions of anti-immigrant xenophobes of the past.

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov nefarious actions of anti-immigrant xenophobes.

Sorry, that phrase reminds me of Snidely Whiplash...

I know

Irrelevant

[Sikander]

Immigrants must be:

1) Legal

2) Willing to obey the other laws of the country

3) Tolerant of the existing society and subcultures

4) Willing to learn the official language as soon as possible

5) Willing and able to contribute to the economy and general welfare of the state


If these conditions are met and upheld, then I have no problem with eventually granting citizenship to the immigrant. If not, then they can go home willing or not.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I am living in one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

Your country is densely populated?

You need to get out more often. Visit some of the cities in Asia and Africa. I highly recommend Tokyo and Hong Kong.

[The Pioneer]

Loif, this kind of thought is ever more dominant among certain people across the world. Problem as I see it is that feeling has been getting stronger with time.


I would have to agree with Kroeze on this one. I am an immigrant myself and I think it's a matter of respect and decency towards a country and its people to at least speak/read the language and have some basic idea about its history. This helps the immigrant directly as he will be able to find a job, communicate, etc. In an indirect way it helps the society and the country itself because in the long term there is more tention between groups of people rather than some kind of integration or harmony between the people. History is also very important and should not be forgotten, it gives you an idea of why the country taht has taken you in is the way it is.

I know from my own experience both here in Germany but also in the States that people that saty within their own group, culture, lenguage, etc. tend to dislike (often strongly) a lot of the things about the country. Believe me I heard the most absurd and amazing things about how shitty USA or Germany is! Upon questioning them why they do not just go back where they came from, they get a blank stare because they damn well know that they came by choice and because they were out of luck in their home countries and came here looking for greener pastures.

Another aspect of the matter is that a lot of them are actually miserable and do not make the most out of what the country has to offer. There are so many things that USA, Germany or other countries have to offer that can keep your interest for a long long time. As an example most people I know in the US have never really been anywhere, a lot of them do not even know what's in the immediate surroundings, their daily lifes go like work-home-work! There is no fun in that but in order to change that you would have to be able to accept that where you immigrated to is a different place than your own and that you will have to respect that and adjust that.

Now on the matter of the picture and the veil, the disrespect comes from the woman to the laws of the country, I am actually wondering what kind of picture she had up untiol now on her passport, green card or whatever other id she had up until then. Bottom line is that it beats its purpose to have a pic taken with a veil and as driving is a perogative and not a right she should banned from it if she doesn't want to.

So long...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by The Pioneer

I know from my own experience both here in Germany but also in the States that people that saty within their own group, culture, lenguage, etc. tend to dislike (often strongly) a lot of the things about the country. Believe me I heard the most absurd and amazing things about how shitty USA or Germany is!

A similar thing happens in Hong Kong. The whites come here to take high paying jobs and then they ***** and moan about the Chinese and the city. The vast majority of the expats here never make an effort to learn the language or understand the culture.

I've met Brits who were born in Hong Kong and cannot speak the local language.

Surprisingly, there is not that much resentment against these foreigners. The expats are often more racist than the locals.

The behaviour of the white immigrants in Hong Kong is quite different from my experience with immigrants in Canada where people make an effort to learn about their new home.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Most are admitted because they claim to be political refugees, though one estimates that about 80% of them have in fact come here for economic reasons.
(I don't blame them for it, but it is useful to acknowledge the truth)

Yes, some of them move because of economical reasons. Although the estimates varies greatly as is expected. (after all there's some theoretical standpoints on migration that refutes the existance of anything but economic migration). The sad problem with this is that no matter the precentage those that move because of economic reasons but has to state political reasons to get in are more or less stuck in their new country. Otherwise they might migrate back and forth when it suits them and the countries economy instead of taking the welfare and get stuck.

I do belive the US did some kind of policy-change about that regarding mexican immigrants that had a positive effect. The netherlands wouldn't "suffer" that much if they became modern "Hollandgänger".

There's always a fear that eased regulations would mean a flood of immigration. There's a risk of that but at the same time these kinds of estimates are often greatly exaggerated. The years around 1990 people predicted a influx of at least 5 million from the former Soviet union. I think the real number landed on something between 0,5 - 1 million.

Some immigrants bring many customs and ideas with them that are completely in defiance of Dutch tolerance.
In fundamentalist mosques (fortunately only a minority of all mosques) it was almost daily practice that an imam would thunder against homosexuality, equal rights for men and women and the wickedness of Western society.

There could as well be christian wackos but they are non the less a minority. After all the immigrants in the netherlands are only 4,4% of the population (1996 figures) and that's not very high compared to many other European countries. Belgium had 9% the same year. Since many of these are not fundamentalists the problem of fundies is not really a important immigration problem imho. It can cause trouble but they can never "take over" in any way. That is not to say that it can't be a trouble but there's probably more problems with football-hooligans than fundies going after homosexuals.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
How long has the Puerto Ricans been there?

Dont know. It would have to be at least a generation though.

[Kropotkin]

Well, that's just sad. It hasn't anything with that racial thing the yanks are so found off? After all, the so called "niggers" (or tribe of Shabazz if you ask the NoI) doesn't seem to be fully integrated yet and they have been there longer than most of the rest.

Unfortunaly such a thing as skincolour seems to damper a functional integration.

[Q Classic]

ok. this editorial has one good point:
1. immigrants, learn the language of the nation you immingrate into. otherwise, there will be no common interface between you and the government, nor between you and greater society. speak your language-- in fact, retain it, please-- but don't expect, nor ask, the government to make official government forms or other things in your language when they are not the official language.
in the case of america, learn english. you don't have to speak it well, but you need to know enough to get buy outside of your cultural enclaves. the government shouldn't have to translate license forms, tests, or citizenship exams into spanish, french, korean, nigerian, or whatever all language--
citizenship is something that you need to work for. if you're not willing to go halfway and at least learn the language, please, don't complain that you can't get things done.

the god stuff is crap. so is the move the hell out. i have no problem with ethnic enclaves, i have no problem with people not wanting to learn english. i'm cool with that.

i just think it's utterly ridiculous that we have to have official government forms translated into these languages for those who refuse to learn even the smallest bit of english.

wasn't some word like, oh, i don't know, integration, like, some big deal a few years ago?

and as for the driver's license thing, that's preposterous. it's for identification. and for identification, a face needs to be present, barring any other sort of secure id. if she volunteered for fingerprinting on the license, or retinal scanning, i'd have no problem. but if the license doesn't have either option, then she must have the face.

[Q Classic]

you know what the sad thing is?

usually, immigrants which want to become citizens and actually study for the citizenship exam...

they often know more about the us than native borns.

and even though most of those assimilate, they often also retain their own tongues and cultures.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Loif
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

First signs of fascism


In Greece: it is said too.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

It's their choice if they learn the langauge or not. And the conseqeuecnes theirs too. You speaking english doesn' mean that others will have to do the same or that english will forever be the only language of the country.


In Greece: they all learn to speak Greek.

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

And in Byzantium God and the hierarchy was reignign supreme. That doesn mean that countries cannot evolve.
If what he says is true then Europe would have been stuck in the middle ages.

countries evolve from where they started sometimes for the better.

in Greece: we dont have this motto but noone cares either way. immigrants or not.

It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

this is a matter of respecting cultures.

in Greece: there's a holy icon in classrooms but no immigrant has said anything till now. I imagine if one did there would be a huge "national" backlash though.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

if they are citizens they have the right to want another flag

in Greece: it is the opposite. immigrants children want to carry the greek flag in parades but some greeks dont let them.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

some land of the free

in Greece: everyone becomes "greek" or stays in the outskirts of society its true.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom:

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

maybe they just came to make money so they dont care. if they ARE citizxens they have every right to speak their minds about anything

in Greece: there hasnt been such attempots by immigrants to question these things.

but thats maybe because we are far more considerate to both greeks and not greeks about these issues


example: in courts everyone has the right to swear on the bible or on his honour.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Being born in Puerto Rico makes you a U.S. citizen, dufus. The only reason a Puerto Rican would be an alien is so that they don't have to pay federal taxes.

Thats not the point dufus.

The point is they are a community that choose to live apart from the rest of society, and outside the US system.

[DanS]

"The point is they are a community that choose to live apart from the rest of society, and outside the US system."

What are you talking about? They are inside the US system. They are Americans. They live in an American society. It just so happens that they speak Spanish primarily and like to live among Puerto Ricans. If in Puerto Rico, they live under a derivative of Spanish law.

This is no different than a Creole Louisianan who speaks bastard French and lives under a derivative of the Code Napoleon.

Or even the Amish, who speak Pennsylvania Dutch primarily.

[Verto]

I agree with what the editorial said, for the most part. I am tired of having people tell me that I shouldn't do this, or that this company shouldn't do that, because it might offend someone.

Some of you have said that they, the immigrants coming to America, have the right to speak their minds and have their own opinions, etc.

The same holds true to those who want American flags on their cars, but many people have said that the U.S. flag would offend people, and the flag should be a "private concern".

The story about the woman who kept her veil on during the License photo is absurd. The entire purpose of the photo is for identification, which is defeated by the veil.

Some of you have said that America can adapt; I say that immigrants can adapt.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
What are you talking about? They are inside the US system. They are Americans. It just so happens that they speak Spanish primarily and like to live among Puerto Ricans. If in Puerto Rico, they live under a derivative of Spanish law.

They dont have social security numbers, bank accounts or pay taxes. Doesnt sound like they are "in the system" to me.

This is no different than a Creole Louisianan who speaks bastard French and lives under a derivative of the Code Napoleon.

They live under US law, not a "derivative of the code napoleon". How is this comparable to puerto ricans living in NYC anyway??

Or even the Amish, who speak Pennsylvania Dutch primarily.

Actually the Amish are descended from germans. "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a popular but incorrect term.(Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German).They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry.

[Bereta_Eder]

you are facing "problesm" that european coutnries such as france have faced long ago

lets take the veil for example



in french schools muslim girls would go woth their veils in class.


but the motto is liberte fraternite EGALITE

one uniform school system.

there was a big class about this because the school system of france wanted these girls to take off their veils in school.

their families siad that would be a huge offense to do

and so on and so forth

[DanS]

"They dont have social security numbers, bank accounts or pay taxes. Doesnt sound like they are "in the system" to me."

Where do you come up with this stuff? Puerto Ricans have social security numbers. Like I said, the only reason why they wouldn't want their location pinned down (through bank accounts) is so that they wouldn't have to pay federal taxes.

"They live under US law, not a "derivative of the code napoleon"

Yes, both US federal law and a derivative of the Code Napoleon. Just as Puerto Ricans live under US federal law and a derivative of Spanish law.

The point is, your definition of "US system" doesn't make any sense at all. Neither "US system" nor "US society" have anything to do with language.

"Actually the Amish are descended from germans. "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a popular but incorrect term."

It's what the Amish call it.

[drake]

I don't care if people choose to learn english or not. Fast food joints and other minimum wage type jobs need employees too.

The land of opportunity isn't the land of opportunity unless you do your part too......some have the un-fortunate mis-conception that they are owed something just by coming here.

RJ, you say "conform or die" in a mocking tone, yet you no doubt live an existance that is centered around conformity. A society cannot be successful without some degree of conformity. That is unless you think anarchy would work well??

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Where do you come up with this stuff? Puerto Ricans have social security numbers. Like I said, the only reason why they wouldn't want their location pinned down (through bank accounts) is so that they wouldn't have to pay federal taxes.

Yes, Puerto Ricans generally have these things, but, as I said, there are those within their communities who dont because they dont even have a basic understanding of the world outside their community.

Yes, both US federal law and a derivative of the Code Napoleon. Just as Puerto Ricans live under US federal law and a derivative of Spanish law.

Whatever. I think we are getting off track here.

The point is, your definition of "US system" doesn't make any sense at all. Neither "US system" nor "US society" have anything to do with language.

Living within the US system means having a SS#, and paying income taxes, neither of which the isolated communities I am talking about not "all puerto ricans" participate in. English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it.

It's what the Amish call it.

Check out amish history, you will find they are mostly descended from germans.

[DanS]

Let's leave aside the extraneous arguments, but suffice to say I lived among Amish for much of my life.

"English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it."

What's this "interests of having a common language"? Sounds like the "good" as defined by Caligastia alone.

Further, even assuming your construct, a Puerto Rican could make a good argument that Spanish then should be taught to all English speakers. The "common language" would then be English and Spanish.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Let's leave aside the extraneous arguments, but suffice to say I lived among Amish for much of my life.

Then you know that none of them speak dutch.

"English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it."

What's this "interests of having a common language"? Sounds like the "good" as defined by Caligastia alone.

You dont see anything good about having a common language? At the very least, it unites a people and reduces the potential for misunderstandings.

Further, even assuming your construct, a Puerto Rican could make a good argument that Spanish then should be taught to all English speakers. The "common language" would then be English and Spanish.

No, that would be "common languages". Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two.

[DanS]

"Then you know that none of them speak dutch."

Yes. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch. It's what everybody in the U.S. calls the language. Trying to parse the name is silly.

"Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two"

There are a lot of countries out there that have no problems with it. If it's a matter of principle, then let's carry the argument to its logical conclusion.

You come to the U.S. and expect not to have to learn Spanish? How rude!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
"Then you know that none of them speak dutch."

Yes. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch. It's what everybody in the U.S. calls the language. Trying to parse the name is silly.

Yes, I just thought you would be interested to know that it actually has nothing to do with dutch.

"Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two"

There are a lot of countries out there that have no problems with it. If it's a matter of principle, then let's carry the argument to its logical conclusion.

You come to the U.S. and expect not to have to learn Spanish? How rude!

I guess we wont agree on this one.