3rd Apolyton CtP2 SP Tournament: 1 August - 1 September 2002

[ETB]

I have attached a funny message that I received about the Greeks building the Apolyton Pack. I get this message once or twice in each SAP game that I’ve played. Of course they never actually complete the wonder, but this is the first time that I remembered to capture the message.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by ETB
The Dutch decided to attack me in the 17th Century, so I made them my first victim (sorry Locutus). Although they only had the three cities on their island, the Greeks had already taken Den Haag. So I was only able to take the other two cities. I have attached the message containing the elimination of the Dutch.

From a Modmaker point of view it would have been better if the Greeks overtook the whole island, but I guess this city was conquered by the Barbarian first and then conquered by the Greeks instead of reconquered by the Dutch as it was the case in my game.

Originally posted by ETB
I used the mg_betterai file supplied by Martin earlier in this thread, but my troops still became restless for about a dozen turns in the early 20th Century. I actually didn’t notice it for a couple of turns with all the troop movement going on, but it finally hit me that none of my troops were staying in sentry or fortified positions. Personally, I suspect that they all had too much caffeine! Fortunately, the troops on my ships stayed on their ships…..

Are you shure you reloaded slic before, actual I outcommented the code that should only had an effect on the AI and contained this ActivateAllUnits event.

To reloadslic just open the chat window by typing the apostrophe key (') and enter: /reloadslic

Originally posted by ETB
I am really pleased with GoodMod – I plan to use it from now on! I was reminded of Nordicus (and the old CtP1 days) when I started seeing Poppies, Salmon, and all these other goods. Martin, you have done an excellent job with GoodMod!

Glad to hear you like yeah the Poppies from CTP1 and the other two goods from the original CTP1 and of course all the ones from Nordicus' mod, I remade most of the graphics to make them look better on the map then Nordicus' original ones.

-Martin

[Shadow]

Building the Apolyton Pack... HAHAHA

ETB, how did you do that screen capture???
What keys do you need to hit?
I wanted to do that a couple of times in my game and post the pics, 'cos some real strange things were happening... it was like cities were being built over water, then the cities and land dissapearing... I just get that from how PW were spread around... strange.

Shadow

[mnbryan37]

Just started this tournement last weekend, and am having a ball. I've never played with just a bunch of islands before. I'm playing for the Military victory, and have already made enough mistakes so that I probably won't better the standard set by Locutus. I have invaded the various islands in the worst possible order, so that I end up sending my troops on very long boat rides.

I'm glad you cut back to the "Hard" level, as I haven't worked up the courage for the two harder levels yet. For those who were disappointed in the AI military action in this game, just wait until you start on thee same land mass as 2 or 3 AI's.

I hate to agree with my son, but I think reloads should be minimized in the tournament games. I use them all the time when I am learning a new level, but if the purpose of the tournaments is to compare my skill vs. another, we should be playing under the same rules. I could see using a reload if your first city gets wiped out, but once you have gone far enough into the game to learn things that improve your strategy, you obviously improve your score.

[Jesper Portus]

Originally posted by ETB
I am really pleased with GoodMod – I plan to use it from now on! I was reminded of Nordicus (and the old CtP1 days) when I started seeing Poppies, Salmon, and all these other goods. Martin, you have done an excellent job with GoodMod!

GoodMod is a very good mod! I like it too!
That is another benefit of this tournament: Playing unknown mods.

Thanks tot the modmakers and Locutus!

Actually I have conquered all but the arabians.
Therefore I increased my economic power and built spies. With three spies and 1 cannon and some money (the amount of 1 turn per city was enough) I "bought" 4 cities from the arabian empire. I mean: Revolt, new empire without troops, captured with one cannon!

Now it is 1600 AD and I can start to change the world into Gaia! My plan is to conquer the world and built very large citys.

My biggest city ever has 500.000 citizens. But it must be possible to have over 1.000.000. Or?

So long
Jesper Portus

[ETB]

Originally posted by Shadow
ETB, how did you do that screen capture???
What keys do you need to hit?
Shadow

I use the “Print Screen” key on my keyboard. That places a screen capture into the clipboard. Then I paste from the clipboard into my Photo Editor program (I assume you can use most any graphics program or even M$ Word) by using the Ctrl+V (paste) key combination (or you can select Edit and Paste from the program’s menu). Then I crop the screen capture so that I have only the portion of the image that I want to post!

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Jesper Portus
My biggest city ever has 500.000 citizens. But it must be possible to have over 1.000.000. Or?

No, even if it is suggested by the score list, it is not possible to have cities over the size of 60 in a standart or ApolytonPack game within the rhules.

-Martin

[ETB]

The Vikings rule the seas! A zipped version of the saved game file is attached - just walk my troops into Bombay to end the game. I had a lot of fun playing like a true Viking with lots of pillaging, exploring, pirating, and taking no gruff from the AIs! Obviously, my one alliance with the Indians didn’t last, but they probably didn’t like my aggressiveness. I built an impressive naval fleet and I was also impressed with the Arabs’ and Polynesians’ naval fleets. We had several good Navy battles, but I saw only a handful of enemy ships stacked 4 or more. But there were plenty of single, double and triple stacks in the game. It was fun chasing down those enemy ships, especially the ones that were loaded with troops!

The Dutch actually returned to haunt me! I think the Polynesians had a spy near Delphi that caused a revolt and the Italians to form (the Polynesians had spies all over the place). The Greeks immediately retook Delphi and eliminated the Italians. The spy may have incited another revolt because the Dutch were announced on the very next turn! I was also impressed that the AIs were able to handle the Barbarians in this game. I think that only one city that I conquered was Barbarian, the rest were legitimate AIs. The other SAP game that I played at the highest Barbarian setting seemed to create a lot more Barbarians and Barbarian cities to the point that they were the most powerful opponent. I was wondering if GoodMod had anything to do with that or if it was just using a lower setting.

I am looking forward to the 4th tournament!

[Martin Gühmann]

Original posted by ETB
I was wondering if GoodMod had anything to do with that or if it was just using a lower setting.

We dropped one risk level and two difficuilt levels. That's the reason for the less Barbarian activity. Another reason for this is that all the available space for Barbarian activity was filled quickly.

Afterwards with all the water on the map using impossible wouldn't have been a problem.

-Martin

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


No, even if it is suggested by the score list, it is not possible to have cities over the size of 60 in a standart or ApolytonPack game within the rhules.

-Martin

Hmm The apolyton pack game that I played in the second tournament had a city with population around 400...

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
We dropped one risk level and two difficuilt levels. That's the reason for the less Barbarian activity. Another reason for this is that all the available space for Barbarian activity was filled quickly.
-Martin

In the last tournament, especially for my moderate skill level, the high Barbarian activity combined with a single city is what kept me from finishing the game. I can either do one, or the other, but not both. I found that I was unable to explore to the degree I wanted in the early game, and was trapped in my single city hitting "End Turn" every time to build up enough units to survive. Meanwhile for every end turn I hit, it seemed another civ obtained a Wonder. Wasn't fun for me. I think that's the reason the participation levels in this tournament seem to be higher.

[ETB]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
From a Modmaker point of view it would have been better if the Greeks overtook the whole island, but I guess this city was conquered by the Barbarian first and then conquered by the Greeks instead of reconquered by the Dutch as it was the case in my game.
-Martin

I think that it was quite a battle for Den Haag because I noticed two stacks of 12 Dutch units sitting outside of their cities when I first circled their island and they still owned Den Haag. When I came to fight the Dutch later on, they had only 4 troops total on the island. The Greeks only had two inside Den Haag as well. I was able to determine that they were at war (before I lost my Dutch embassy – the Greeks had the Forbidden City), so I assumed that the Greeks took Den Haag by force from the Dutch. I recall only one Barbarian city in my game and it was on the Phoenician’s island.

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Are you shure you reloaded slic before, actual I outcommented the code that should only had an effect on the AI and contained this ActivateAllUnits event.

To reloadslic just open the chat window by typing the apostrophe key (') and enter: /reloadslic
-Martin

I used your new file MG_BetterAI.slc (dated 8/7/2002 4:40 PM from your earlier post in this thread) from the start of my game because I got such a late start. I would not need to reloadslic if I started with your new file, right? My troops reactivated one more time after I captured a Polynesian city in the mid-21st century. They don’t move or change groups – it’s as if all units had their orders cleared, although I can’t recall if I had any units on a multi-turn move. Anyway, there are only 3 ClearOrder commands in your MG_BetterAI.slc file and they are all commented out and the ActivateAllUnits is commented out as well, so the cause must lie somewhere else. Trouble is, I can only find the ClearOrders command in the airunit slc file and I don’t see how that could be the casue of it. Right now, I guess it’s a mystery.

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Glad to hear you like yeah the Poppies from CTP1 and the other two goods from the original CTP1 and of course all the ones from Nordicus' mod, I remade most of the graphics to make them look better on the map then Nordicus' original ones.
-Martin

I think the graphics are outstanding and you did a lot more than just the goods. I especially noticed that the AIs didn’t have stacks of troops just sitting outside of their cities doing nothing. I found most cities to have large or full garrisons in them and I was often greeted with one or more full stacks when I landed on an island. With the exception of the Dutch, each AI had a lot of full stacks for me to go through and I often lost several invasion units in the process. I’m used to something on the order of a 50:1 kill ratio against the AIs, but I was probably closer to 3:1 for this game, mostly because I wasn’t expecting such large garrisons in the cities. Did you implement AI improvements that go beyond the SAP or was it just my imagination?

I can’t wait to start another game on the UL map using your GoodMod. I can’t wait for your next update, so I’ll just get it going and hopefully finish before your next update. I’ll pay closer attention if my troops get all activated again. Do you think it would help to set Debugslic=yes if it happens again?

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by ETB
I built an impressive naval fleet and I was also impressed with the Arabs’ and Polynesians’ naval fleets. We had several good Navy battles, but I saw only a handful of enemy ships stacked 4 or more. But there were plenty of single, double and triple stacks in the game. It was fun chasing down those enemy ships, especially the ones that were loaded with troops!
I am looking forward to the 4th tournament!

This is what I found to be true almost exactly. The Polynesians, and to a lesser extent Arabia, in my game were very aggressive both with the use of subs (stacked) and destroyers (usually single) and landing stacks of troops on my captured territory (although never the main island). At one point I paid the price for not respecting the AI when a Polynesian hunter pack of four subs sank the 10 or so longships (protected by only a Ironclad) I had been for transport. I was lucky I had unloaded my units two turns prior.

I am very curious to see how this AI acts on a more land based game.

[ETB]

Originally posted by mnbryan37
Just started this tournement last weekend, and am having a ball. I've never played with just a bunch of islands before. I'm playing for the Military victory, and have already made enough mistakes so that I probably won't better the standard set by Locutus. I have invaded the various islands in the worst possible order, so that I end up sending my troops on very long boat rides.

Yes, but remember that they are Vikings and they LOVE the sea! I ended doing something that I don’t recall doing before. I conquered a city, set up a build queue full of happiness improvements because the citizens were so distraught, then lost the city on my next turn because I forgot to entertain them and they revolted! I knew what I had done wrong and I felt rather stupid about it but then I did the exact same thing a few turns later! So I lost some time rebuilding the troops that I lost in the revolts. It happened one more time, but I believe that a Polynesian spy caused the revolt because I am CERTAIN that I entertained the citizens after I captured it, didn’t I? Anyway, there was a spy next to that city a couple of turns later.

Originally posted by mnbryan37
I'm glad you cut back to the "Hard" level, as I haven't worked up the courage for the two harder levels yet. For those who were disappointed in the AI military action in this game, just wait until you start on thee same land mass as 2 or 3 AI's.

I played my last SAP game on a 125x250 tile map with almost all land on two continents. There were 8 AIs on my continent and 8 more on the other. At times it was simply a game of constantly building units just to stay alive. But it was so satisfying when I finally went on the offensive against those nasty AIs that were constantly attacking me!

Originally posted by mnbryan37
I hate to agree with my son, but I think reloads should be minimized in the tournament games. I use them all the time when I am learning a new level, but if the purpose of the tournaments is to compare my skill vs. another, we should be playing under the same rules. I could see using a reload if your first city gets wiped out, but once you have gone far enough into the game to learn things that improve your strategy, you obviously improve your score.

I thought something was supposed to freeze over before my father agreed with me! I was initially feeling guilty because I had read so much in here about the starting island, but I ended up using that information to my disadvantage. I’m not going to read the forum messages about the next tournament until I am well into the game because I really enjoy the surprises associated with discovering a new map.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by ETB
I think that it was quite a battle for Den Haag because I noticed two stacks of 12 Dutch units sitting outside of their cities when I first circled their island and they still owned Den Haag. When I came to fight the Dutch later on, they had only 4 troops total on the island. The Greeks only had two inside Den Haag as well. I was able to determine that they were at war (before I lost my Dutch embassy ? the Greeks had the Forbidden City), so I assumed that the Greeks took Den Haag by force from the Dutch. I recall only one Barbarian city in my game and it was on the Phoenician?s island.

I would say this was a lack of reinforcements, to solve this I could modify the DiffDB.txt, something that I wanted to do anyway. That would be interesting what would happen if I remove the AI cap as suggested by mapfi.

Originally posted by ETB
I used your new file MG_BetterAI.slc (dated 8/7/2002 4:40 PM from your earlier post in this thread) from the start of my game because I got such a late start. I would not need to reloadslic if I started with your new file, right? My troops reactivated one more time after I captured a Polynesian city in the mid-21st century. They don?t move or change groups ? it?s as if all units had their orders cleared, although I can?t recall if I had any units on a multi-turn move. Anyway, there are only 3 ClearOrder commands in your MG_BetterAI.slc file and they are all commented out and the ActivateAllUnits is commented out as well, so the cause must lie somewhere else. Trouble is, I can only find the ClearOrders command in the airunit slc file and I don?t see how that could be the casue of it. Right now, I guess it?s a mystery.

Actual the game was created on Locutus' computer with the old MG_BetterAI.slc, so a version of this script is still saved somewere in the savegame. So you have to reloadslic, to see the effects of the modified version, because you didn't start the game.

Originally posted by ETB
I think the graphics are outstanding and you did a lot more than just the goods. I especially noticed that the AIs didn?t have stacks of troops just sitting outside of their cities doing nothing. I found most cities to have large or full garrisons in them and I was often greeted with one or more full stacks when I landed on an island. With the exception of the Dutch, each AI had a lot of full stacks for me to go through and I often lost several invasion units in the process. I?m used to something on the order of a 50:1 kill ratio against the AIs, but I was probably closer to 3:1 for this game, mostly because I wasn?t expecting such large garrisons in the cities. Did you implement AI improvements that go beyond the SAP or was it just my imagination?

Yeah I used for better balance the AI build lists by player1 and modified the goals.txt and strategies.txt, I think also this does a huge difference, but frenzy mod contributes something, too.

Originally posted by ETB
I can?t wait to start another game on the UL map using your GoodMod. I can?t wait for your next update, so I?ll just get it going and hopefully finish before your next update. I?ll pay closer attention if my troops get all activated again. Do you think it would help to set Debugslic=yes if it happens again?

I think DebugSlic=Yes is not the best idea if you can't fix the errors that you will see. If you use all the slic files I attached in this thread then you will get only in Diplomod.slc some slic errors, occasional. That's much better then before. For the next update the earliest possible date is the first September or second September, when this tournerment is officially or inofficially closed. I plane to include some rhule changes, like cheaper advances in the APOL version and some stuff concerning the governments. And I think you understand that I can't release stuff like this, as we should play all with the same rhules. Another thing that I will include are three no graphics for buttons, you noticed the three buttons with the move order icon in your orders button bank.

-Martin

[ETB]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Actual the game was created on Locutus' computer with the old MG_BetterAI.slc, so a version of this script is still saved somewere in the savegame. So you have to reloadslic, to see the effects of the modified version, because you didn't start the game.
-Martin

Of course I still needed to reloadslic because I didn’t start the game! It sure is hard to keep up with this stuff!

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
That's much better then before. For the next update the earliest possible date is the first September or second September, when this tournerment is officially or inofficially closed.

I understand and I certainly can wait! Thanks again Martin!

[Shadow]

Howdy all,

Just a thought to all of you out there participating in the current tournament.
Now if you're all like me, then you probably can't wait to hook into the next game and pit your skills against the other competitors as well as the AI!

But to make things more enjoyable, would it be worthwhile everyone putting in a vote for what they'd like to see in the next game?
e.g. More land that current game, less goods, certain units left out or changed somehow, mostly desert terrain, etc...

Or should we just leave it up to Loc to figure out something new?

Personally I'm in the mood for a gigantic map (I can't run those mega-ultra-large maps, my system won't handle it unfortunately), about half way on the land/water setting, max goods, Impossible setting, and it'd be nice to see the AI massing up some more formidable naval fleets but I guess that's in the coding more or less... anyway, just some thoughts.

What does everyone think?

Shadow

[mnbryan37]

Attached (I hope) is my completed game. I did much better than I thought I was going to do, as two of the last 3 AI's (Phonecia and Arabia) I had to battle must have just completed some major battles between themselves as they seemed much weaker than when I had seen them earlier in the game. To complete the game, move my stack of 9 units into Malang for the final battle.

I played for a military victory, finished in 1290AD with a score of 17,040, and had 22 cities.

I competed in the first and third tournies, but not the 2nd one as I have not reached that level of skill yet. I would be in favor of any type of game for future events, other than one at the Impossible level. I just started my first game at the "very hard" level, and am pinned down by about 60 troops from my first AI contacted. Looks like enough of a challenge for me.

Bill

[mnbryan37]

Game didn't attach, will try again

[Jesper Portus]

Originally posted by Shadow
But to make things more enjoyable, would it be worthwhile everyone putting in a vote for what they'd like to see in the next game?

Or should we just leave it up to Loc to figure out something new?

Shadow

I prefer more land, because the AI is much more effective an big continents.
Otherwise I liked the choice of Locutus. So I try very different games and mods.

To my current game:
There is one arbabian city left. In the mountains an population is one. I bought five cities of the arabians with my spies. No problems, easy and fast.

I have now 400 years to built the world in my may. Gaia! An I trie to reach really big cities.

So long
Jesper

[Maquiladora]

Ok heres my entry this month, finally found enough time to polish this game off. Enjoyed the island hopping.

I think in some way the islands couldve made the AI more resistant to being easily conquered.

When i hopped on the Polynesian (purple) island they had about 4 full stacks with all "modern" units, i took over 2 of their cities but they never attacked me to get their cities back

One of the stacks just sat outside one of the cities bombarding in every turn, and i couldnt attack/bombard back because i only had 3 units inside. And everytime i just landed next to a city and took it. They had those stacks but they only had maybe 4/5 units defending inside the city, including 3 settlers in one city i saw.

Eventually they couldnt pay the upkeep for all those units with only 2 remaining cities and that made it even easier.

Ok heres the save, diplomatic victory - 8320 points - 975 Ano Domini

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by mnbryan37

I played for a military victory, finished in 1290AD with a score of 17,040, and had 22 cities.

I competed in the first and third tournies, but not the 2nd one as I have not reached that level of skill yet. I would be in favor of any type of game for future events, other than one at the Impossible level.
Bill

Well, it's just my humble opinion, but if you can win by conquest in 1290 AD, I'd say that you do have that level of skill

As far as which type of game I'd like to see for the next one, I am completely open... Locutus has been doing a great job with it so far

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by centrifuge
As far as which type of game I'd like to see for the next one, I am completely open... Locutus has been doing a great job with it so far

I think Cradle is a natural progression for the next tournament game, although it depends whats happening with the MP tournament. If it happens soon then ill have to miss the SP one.

[Shadow]

I think you all would be surprised at just how good you really are. It seems to me that if most people have a city or two taken then they automatically scrap the game or reload. Just let the game take its course sometimes, things can get better.

I'm currently playing my own game with the same mods as the third tournament, but on impossible level, and I've been reduced to one city for the last 100 turns or so with a settler just on the move. But I'm slowly gaining ground... slowly...

Anyway, just try harder levels if you haven't already, I think you'll surprise yourselves. And the best games are always a struggle to survive.

Cheers,
Shadow

[mapfi]

Well, there you go - took me more than enough time the last few days and I'm glad I finally got to the point.

For those who are interested:
I was convinced I'd have an advantage if I'd settle the first Island as close as possible, meaning just two tiles in between cities. With settling at the starting point and going from there I ended up with something like 12 or so cities. It worked really well in my opinion as I got the lead in the tech race pretty fast. My goal was to finish everyone of as soon as possible. Bryan has however given an amazing performance, couldn't beat that. So I end up in 1550 AD, military victory with 21795 points (just unload the 3 marines into the last Polynesian city Ua Pou (what a name!))

This brings me to the question, can I capture a city which is on a one tile island before I get marines and if so how? The only thing I could imagine is bombard it to zero defendants and then it might be possible to unload other units directly into it too. But I honestly don't know.

The other problem I got with the game is weird. I installed SAP and GM from scratch because I had messed around for slicing, installed the betterai and reloaded slic the first turn. Something didn't work with the text string files as every message I got was just plain gibberish. Didn't keep me from playing though. Maybe it got something to do with me having the german version of the game? Any thoughts?

Mauro

[Maquiladora]

The quickest way in the tech tree to take a city like that, is to attack with ship of the line until all defenders are dead. Then unload any a combat ground unit into the empty city.

[mapfi]

So in that case I could have finished stupid Greece as second civ. Well, if I hadn't passed 900AD already when Bryan put his result up and if I had known that the AI never had more than 10 cities I would have put more emphasisis on military to finish just as quickly as possible instead of caring for my cities to grow continously. Hey but that's the true fun of the tournament game - not knowing what you're up to and seeing other's doing better or worse...

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Shadow

But to make things more enjoyable, would it be worthwhile everyone putting in a vote for what they'd like to see in the next game?
e.g. More land that current game, less goods, certain units left out or changed somehow, mostly desert terrain, etc...

Or should we just leave it up to Loc to figure out something new?

Shadow

There's no question I have preferences to map size, difficulty, amount of water, etc. That said, these tournaments give me incentive to try mods and conditions I may not normally. So, I will leave it up to the powers that be.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by mapfi
So in that case I could have finished stupid Greece as second civ. Well, if I hadn't passed 900AD already when Bryan put his result up and if I had known that the AI never had more than 10 cities I would have put more emphasisis on military to finish just as quickly as possible instead of caring for my cities to grow continously. Hey but that's the true fun of the tournament game - not knowing what you're up to and seeing other's doing better or worse...

In some way its for more interesting to finish second, then you can disect the save game of the person who won quicker than you in the corresponding victory group, and see what they did differently. I dont think anyone else got a diplo victory yet, although i wouldve gone for military had i had enough time.

I must say though, 12 cities on that first island, im not sure if thats too many, to keep each city productive and growing. I only built 7, i couldve got a couple more if id have scouted the island more, but the 7 i did build just had more space and expanded well.

More cities would produce quicker population growth early, but stifle it eventually. The larger the land mass the greater the desire there should be to colonise every square inch of it quickly. Benefit from the growth and science later.

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Maquiladora

I dont think anyone else got a diplo victory yet,

ummm , I guess that you must have overlooked this one