AI still prefers Paras over Tanks!!?! Madness!

=DrJambo= · August 2, 2002, 07:07

Well, it was nice to see the Ai building many more tanks thanks to 1.29f..

However, if the AI ever decides to research Advanced Flight (being optional they sometimes don't), then they immediately start producing paras over tanks as their primary choice of attacking unit... madness!!!

Anyway, it's probably related to paras being later on in the tech tree, or so i think. I'm going to try to combine paras with marines under Amphibious Warfare and see if this is the case since the AI always prefers tanks to marines.

Once Modern Armour arrive, i'm sure they'll go from paras to MA as their primary choice, but who knows?!

DeepO · August 2, 2002, 08:57

Interesting... do they use the paratroopers as intended (i.e. dropping them behind fortifications)? Or will they use them as they would use tanks, with a frontal attack? I would think marines were better than paras for frontal assault, maybe the AIs think otherwise.

DeepO

=DrJambo= · August 2, 2002, 09:06

they use them as they'd use tanks, i.e. frontal attacks.

DeepO · August 2, 2002, 09:26

Hmmm... that's not nice. I'll try to keep an eye out for this, but lately I have played too many special scenarios, were the AIs had MAs... the few paras that get build are solely for dropping behind the lines. And I haven't seen many of these yet.

DeepO

=DrJambo= · August 2, 2002, 09:56

what are these special scenarios and how do the paras fit into the tech tree in relation to the tanks and modern armour?

DeepO · August 2, 2002, 10:12

DrJambo, see the strat forum. There are a number of these scenarios, but the last 2 I was playing were the MT IV and MT V scenarios. The tech tree is unaltered with regards to the paras (In MT V (Last stand at the Alamo) the space techs are rearranged), but when you start the game, all AIs have already access to MAs, RAs, and Stealths. Therefore, they will use these in stead of using paras for frontal assault, however in the last game paras are dropped behind the well defended chokepoints.
The goal of the MTs is to get into situations that you normally do not end up with, most of the times you have to fight back from an underdog situation. Great fun!

DeepO

ACooper · August 2, 2002, 10:16

I have yet to see the AI build a paratrooper. Lot's and lots of tanks and marines though.

=DrJambo= · August 2, 2002, 10:28

ACooper, has the AI actually researched Advanced Flight though!? Ye see, they don't need it to progress to the Modern Era, so they might not actually research it...!

If they do research it though, then you'll probbably see the AI build paras preferentially to the better tank option..

ACooper · August 2, 2002, 10:45

Yes, they have researched advanced flight. (I myself usually skip advanced flight so I see i in the diplomacy screen on their side)

jshelr · August 2, 2002, 11:20

I've seen the paratroop post patch.

Lacking uranium, I'd landed a huge stack of MA and inflantry on the neighboring continent. Took the city and holed up with an overwhelming force. The para floated down next door on a mountain the AI could have reached easily by land. He was all by his lonesome. Not sure what the AI had in mind, but this did not represent an advancement in AI late-game warfighting techniques.

Jezz · August 2, 2002, 16:33

I've seen swarms of paratroopers. They like to drop in behind cities i've just conquered and pillage roads and counter attack. I think sometimes they build them in lew of tanks because of the cost maybe?

ixnay · August 2, 2002, 19:13

I rarely see the AI research Adv. Flight. And when they do, I haven't seen them build paratroopers.

player1 · August 3, 2002, 08:55

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
Well, it was nice to see the Ai building many more tanks thanks to 1.29f..

However, if the AI ever decides to research Advanced Flight (being optional they sometimes don't), then they immediately start producing paras over tanks as their primary choice of attacking unit... madness!!!

Anyway, it's probably related to paras being later on in the tech tree, or so i think. I'm going to try to combine paras with marines under Amphibious Warfare and see if this is the case since the AI always prefers tanks to marines.

Once Modern Armour arrive, i'm sure they'll go from paras to MA as their primary choice, but who knows?!

Main question:

Have you MODed Paratroopers?
Like giving them movement of 2.

=DrJambo= · August 3, 2002, 12:47

good question player 1... Does that make the difference?

Because yes, i did give them a movement of 2!

player1 · August 3, 2002, 13:52

I guess that movemnt of two together with some other of thier abilities makes AI to think that they are better then Tanks.

Do they also have somthing else better then tanks?
Like extra defense or something?
Are they maybe much cheaper then Tank?

Since that's some sort of internal AI envaluation logic (which makes AI to think that Paras are better offense units), I don't know what you need to do in order to change it.

Maybe ask Soren?

DeepO · August 3, 2002, 14:25

I guess it is simply a matter of being more modern then tanks: higher up the tech tree, and also flagged as offensive fast movers. Further, they have two extra advantages: they are footsoldiers so can be transportd by helicopter, and they can paradrop which tanks can not. So, if I was the AI, I would chose paras too

DeepO

ALPHA WOLF 64 · August 3, 2002, 23:17

i think it depends on how fast the AI needs offensive units. if they are at peace, i see lots of tanks, otherwise its lots of paratroopers.

Coracle · August 3, 2002, 23:49

Yes, the AI builds lots of paras as soon as it is able.

No, it does not use them as real paratroops, just offensive units.

Since the AI is too dumb to figure out the profound differences between tanks and paratroopers, and since Firaxis won't fix this, why not just go to Editor and unflag paras as "offensive" units??

Coracle · August 3, 2002, 23:53

Quote:

Originally posted by player1
. . . Since that's some sort of internal AI envaluation logic (which makes AI to think that Paras are better offense units), I don't know what you need to do in order to change it.

Maybe ask Soren?

Yea, he has all the answers.

As for "internal AI evaluation logic", I assume you are using the term "logic" loosely. There is NO logic when an AI uses paras (lightly armed infantry) instead of tanks offensively.

Zylka · August 4, 2002, 01:46

This is very odd a state of priority

player1 · August 4, 2002, 04:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Yea, he has all the answers.

As for "internal AI evaluation logic", I assume you are using the term "logic" loosely. There is NO logic when an AI uses paras (lightly armed infantry) instead of tanks offensively.

So much sarcasm!

If-then-else is internal logic for AI.
It's logical for AI to use routine programmed by programmer.

Now I would realy like to know how much different are DrJamos Tanks and Paras (including the cost) compared to original.

I think that flaw is probably in programmers resoning in incuding Paras airdrop ability in calculations for primary offense unit.

Flaw is in that, that paradroop ability of unit itself doesn't make good assault unit.

Of course since internal logic of AI is not editable (like in CTP & CTP2), it all depends from just ONE person.

And guess who he is?

=DrJambo= · August 4, 2002, 04:35

Right,

Paras were 8,8,2 range 8 cost 100
Marines were 10,6,1 cost 100
Tanks were 16,8,2 cost 100

The Ai preferred tanks over MArines, but on researching Advanced Flight they preferred Paras..

There's an easy way to actually tell the build preferences of the Ai...

that is if you have the check boxes that come up when you build a unit/improvement.... it will always have a suggestion as to what to build next! After advanced flight was researched the build suggestion was always paras. Obviously the same process is used for the Ai when making decisions as to what to build next..

=DrJambo= · August 4, 2002, 05:13

Any way of asking the Firaxis team over this one? Email?

player1 · August 4, 2002, 08:10

Strange...

Difference between your Tanks & Paras is that Tank have higher attack and have no airdrop ability.

So they should still be better.

Strange...

Of course, there is sollution of giving Paras defense of 1.
I should work.

P.S.
Try "search mebemer" option and find all Firaxis members.
Maybe some of them have turned on emial or PM option so you could contact them.

=DrJambo= · August 4, 2002, 09:16

my thoughts are that the Ai prefers paras because either they are further up in the tech tree or because i gave them a movement of 2!

player1, when you play does the AI prefer paras over tanks when they have a movement of 1?

player1 · August 4, 2002, 10:32

Quote:

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
my thoughts are that the Ai prefers paras because either they are further up in the tech tree or because i gave them a movement of 2!

player1, when you play does the AI prefer paras over tanks when they have a movement of 1?

As far as I know, they use Tanks.

=DrJambo= · August 5, 2002, 09:44

when i mix paras and marines under amphibious warfare with a movement of 1, the Ai prefers tanks.

So it's either klater the positioning in the tech tree (Advanced Flight compared with Motorised Transportation) or the movement of 2 that is causing the preference for paras over tanks.

DeepO · August 5, 2002, 10:36

I think it is both... as I said before, the paras are more modern fast movers, so having an extra property (air-drop) weighs against the higher AD values.

DeepO

=DrJambo= · August 11, 2002, 18:02

this time my experimentation showed a 10,8,1 airdrop, amphibious assault marine available under Amphibious Warfare is favoured over a tank!?

Coracle · August 11, 2002, 19:34

I well remember having let my governors cotnrol production and they started cranking out para after para after para, until I stopped them and started micromanaging again.