Discussion – proposal for regional administrators and city governors.

[GodKing]

Discussion – proposal for regional administrators and city governors.

In this link here is the discussion and unofficial poll regarding this. By the voting, it appears obvious that people think it would be a good idea. So, I put together a system to make this work for us. So please post your comments below and if we are lucky, by the time the war ends with France and we have 10+ cities, we will be ready to enact whatever the final version is.

Regions (or State, or Province, or whatever)

Definition: An area of continuous land controlled by our government, containing from 5 to 10 cities. Each city may have a Governor. Each Region may have an Administrator. The Governors shall supervise the individual aspects of the city. Each Governor shall report to the Regional Administrator. The Regional Administrator shall report directly to the Minister of City Planning.

Creation of a Region: As our empire grows, our citizens will grow, prosper, settle new lands, multiply, and found more and more cities. Currently we have fewer than 10 cities, however some day we shall break this barrier. When this occurs, the Minister of City Planning shall divide the cities into separate Regions, based upon whatever criteria the Minister so chooses. Recommendations are to divide based upon geography and historical references (i.e., these cities are on this side of the mountains, and all were once German, thus they will become a new Region). There are a minimum of 5 cities per region, and a maximum of 10 cities. When regions grow to exceed 10 cities, the Minister of City Planning shall create a Sub-Region or a new Region from the cities and land controlled by the existing Region.

Sub-Region: a Region with less than 5 cities. If an existing Region gains more than 10 cities, and doesn’t want to split its core cities in the creation of a new Region, and if there is cause to believe that additional cities may be gained in a reasonable period of time to provide the new region with its minimum of 5 cities, then the Minister of City Planning may, at his discretion, designate the area as a Sub-Region. Sub-Regions may have an Administrator, but no governors until it obtains Region status. Sub-Regions are automatically accorded Region Status once they have the required number of cities.

Duties of the Regional Administrator (RA):
1. The Minister of City Planning appoints The RA each month (after the new elections). An election of those citizens living in the Region is an appropriate method for the Minister of City Planning to choose. The appointment (by whatever methodology of determining the appointee) must be made within the first week of the new Ministers term.
2. The RA will act as a Governor for all Cities within the Region that do not have Governors.
3. The RA will coordinate efforts between the various Cities in the Region, resolving conflicts between the various cities production radii and conflicts between Governors.
4. The RA will provide, in a thread, on a minimum of a weekly basis, a report of the Region, including such items as may be necessary for the public and the Minister of City Planning to do their jobs.
5. The RA may override the decisions of a Governor of the Region.
6. The Minister of City Planning may override the decisions of an RA.
7. Upon creation of a region, the RA will post a discussion thread, followed by an official poll, creating the name for the region. Once created, the regional name may not be changed (except by will of MarkG or DanQ).
8. An RA may hold any other position within the government except the following:
a. President
b. Vice President
c. Minister of City Planning
d. Justice
9. The RA of the Region with the city containing the Imperial Palace of Presidential Rulership (the capitol city) shall be considered the Deputy Minister.

Regarding the Regions:
1. The borders BETWEEN Regions shall be fixed at the time of their creation. If a Cities Radii overlap between Regions, the one to get the land in use first shall control the land. The Minister of City Planning shall resolve any disputes as necessary.
2. Cities may only change Regions if they are:
a. Moving into a newly created region or sub-region.
b. The Governor must petition to take in front of the Justices, who may, at their discretion, issue a court order removing the city from its current Region. The Minister of City Planning then may reassign the city to a new Region.
3. Cities may be added to regions in several ways:
a. New cities may be ‘planted’ within the Regional area, automatically adding them to the Region. If planted between regions, the Minister shall decide which region a city belongs to.
b. Cities taken from the heathen barbarian civilizations shall be added to regions per the direction of the Minister of City Planning.
c. In the creation of new regions from existing old regions.

Duties of a Governor:
1. Governors are assigned to the city when the city is:
a. First created;
b. First taken over by us;
c. If the Governor resigns or is impeached, then the Minister of City Planning may assign a new Governor.
2. A Governors job is to manage production of the city, including assigning locations for workers to work (i.e. work the forest tile, or work the whale tile).
3. Assign a build queue for the city.
4. Communicate with the RA, as often as necessary, regarding the status of the city.
5. A Governor may hold another position in the government, including justice.
6. The Governors position is considered permanent until the Governor resigns their position, or unless impeached by the court.


Regarding the Cities:
1. The Governors of the cities in a Region constitute the citizens of that Region.
2. The Governor of a city may name that city. The city can only be renamed if a new Governor takes over or by the will of MarkG or DanQ.
3. A city that uses a tile first gets it. If they subsequently stop using it and another city uses it, tough. Tiles shall be used in a manor that will benefit the entirety of the nation.

[Spiffor]

Mmmh, some thoughts :
Even if warmongers and their twisted idea of manifest destiny win, we won't have nearly as many cities as Phoenatica : our map is small, and we seem to have a big water coverage (unlike their apparent 260*260 pangaea). So I think RAs will be superfluous, esp. if we stick to a more reasonably sized empire (up to 25 cities).

I think governors should be elected by the people of their city, as per the rules of the city. With this idea, any Civ3 DemoGamer should make it clear, in which city he lives (ministers and justices are to live in the capital).
Governors open a city thread, where matters of the city are discussed (much roleplaying there), and elections are held, without making a poll. This way, we ensure only people from this particular city elect their governor.

The actual powers of the governors are few, in my idea : they manage citizens, to maximize efficiency, and they give documented advice to the city planner on what next building would benefit the city. The city planner is the only one to decide, and he can override any decision taken by the governor if he wants.

However, I'm aware we're not many active players, and we are likely to have unmanned cities. Then, instead of city governors, I'd go for province governors (not to be confused with your RAs).
Province governors replace city governors, and have the same limited powers. They're elected by people from the province, in the specific thread of the province. I think this is a better idea because it gives mre work (and thus more usefulness) to governors : checking if one city is all right takes a very short time. Checking several cities takes more time.

I think these governors would add much to the depht of the game, but we should keep them simple, and not make it too bureaucratic. Very simple election rules, and limited powers would be the best !


EDIT : about deciding how provinces are drawn : I think we should discuss what provinces could be in a thread for everyone, to get to a valid suggestion. Once a compromise has been reached in the debate thread, we poll on this. It's an empirewide matter, so every Apolytonian should get to vote there.

To draw a province where no one existed (for example, I want to create the first province called "Homeland" with Apoyton, BHQ, Tassagrad and Termina), a 51% majority is enough.
To draw new lines where previous ones existed (i.e, I want to put Gaia in the "Homeland" province rather than the "Valhalla" province), a 67% majority and a 3 weeks delay would be needed, pretty much like amendments..
Governors and City planner might be active in the debates, but only citizens have the true power for these matters.

[jdd2007]

hmm i skimmed both posts, and may have missed something, but here are some thoughts:

-i like spiffs last idea.
-more province governors (thus more provinces) instead of a few large provinces with many city governors and governorless cities would be the best
-i think we should make 2 or 3 provinces right away. 'homeland' should have 3 or 4 cities, but should not be able to add cities.

a big question: could you hold a ministry (or presidency) and a province governorship? maybe you could if there were no other candidates. this way, we would never have empty posts.

*Glory to country through strength and honor!*

[Epistax]

Definition: An area of continuous land controlled by our government, containing from 5 to 10 cities. Each city may have a Governor.

I believe this to be in bad judgement. Consider a group of cities all with ocean between them, but still together. Consider a group, with a single island city (possible result of Uber isle). Should the single city get its own province because of land mass concerns. I don't think so.

I would separate them by time scale of settlement, or other geographical features, however it is seen fit at the time, but not to limit them by any means, if at all we have them.

[jdd2007]

we can decide them any way we like, as long as all the cities are in the same area of land/water.

*Glory to country through strength and glory!*

[Kuciwalker]

The geographic stuff is to make it look pretty (or at least not to offend our sensibilities).

[Panag]

hi ,

intresting , but will this not make our government a more complex entity , ...?

have a nice day

[jdd2007]

it might be neccessary in end game. the city planner might be hopelessly overwhelmed

*Glory to Country through Strength and Honor*

[MrWhereItsAt]

This needn't make things more complex, it would actually help the City Planner a helluva lot. It would up the responsibilities of most posters who wanted them, whilst not presenting them with insurmountable nor very difficult tasks in most cases, especially since any city important to overall strategy would be in the spotlight anyway.

Just a few thoughts - how are new city sites within existing regions (or outside of them for that matter) decided on? Do the Governors petition the Imperial Expansion advisor to have their case heard by the people in a poll? This citizen regional identification idea; is this a free-for-all or do we want to even things out so that there is approx the same number of citizens in each city? Some cities would be almost meaningless to manage, and some may be seen as more prestigious; the capital or WoW cities for example.

Overall though, I could feel the posts here start turning those cogs in my head - very cool stuff, and a way that those who aren't likely to be Ministers, or who want an easy challenge first, to get involved. Moreover, if there was a small breakdown, it wouldn't be any trouble to redistribute cities and have someone manage a couple at once.

[GePap]

What about all the other duties and aspects of a possible province? Lets say someone has a province they feel is underdeveloped, so they want a few more roads? This falls under PWM. Under the idea now, they might be able to make the workers, but don't have the power to use them. Also, what about garrison placement? What if a governor wnats to crush an uprising somewhere in their otherwise out of harm province by moving troops from city A to B instead of creating entertainers or taxmen or so forth? They would not have that power either, would they?

I have been calling for a smaller cabinet for a while now, so let me make it in a different light_ we have Governors elected to run provinces, all the facets of that prvince with 2 limits: They must follow the orders of ministers if ministers want something done specifically in a city, and two: Ministers can set quotas from provinces in terms of gold, luxuries, beakers, workers, troops, so forth. example:

SMAC awaits a war with Germany, and needs 4 knights for a campaign: he issues the orders for four knigths, and the governors, deciding how best to make them and wether they want thier cities used for military production or not, come up with the way to get 4 knights built themselves, to give to the SMC by the appointed time. Thhis way more people form part of the government, and we would also get a much more interesting issue into the game, horsetrading: governor X tells governor Y: fine, I build the knights this time, but next time we need them, I get to build my infrastcuture, while you have to bear the cost of troops. Having governors would also give us fertile ground for future Presidential candidates Vote for the successful governor of X! He will get the job done!

[Kloreep]

Good work, GodKing.

I agree with everything you've posted, except the method of appointment. I think the City Planner should appoint the RAs, subject to the people's approval (like the court), and then the RAs appoint governors (without any approval necessary). Trying to manage virtual residency would be a hassle, and would probably lead to poltical immigration to one province or another.

[yellfromhell]

I support what GePap posted.
But I want to test the acceptance of this idea (if not proposed yet): representative elections of a parliament (voting representant per province). That way we could give more representants to the more important provinces and we could also have isolated extra-continental provinces -or simply 'new colonies'- without any representation (would have just its governor). The parliament -instead of the Minister council- would be the only institution that has veto to the president and ministers decisions. This would be more realistic because the ministers work more like presidential secretaries than like rulers. Im new in the game and so I dont know exactly every organ you have created and their power. Therefore I dont know if this type of functioning is currently being taken.
Please, sorry if this sounds stupid. Its just an idea, and if you like it we could discuss about the nature of a parliament.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

[Captain]

GePap,

great ideas with the Governors. It would also lead to interesting conflicts with expansion plans and jurisdiction. (Ex. whether governors push for a war to expand certain territories that would fall in their province, or against war because their province is subject to ai pillaging/bombard while the others are safely far away). I was trying to get somethign like that proposed for individual cities too. Mayors instead of governors. perhaps it might also work for certain powerful cities. (Here in Canada, we are dominated by about 5-6 large cities who account for roughly half of country's wealth generation). I also hoped to get citiznes to live in certain cities and have some civic pride. lends more to the whole roleplay experience. i look at cfc's game and they have not only provinces, but also a bunch of citizne's groups with hq's and stuff. and they have even less members than we do but they're doing fine. i think if we followed suit (modified for Apoly's culture of course), our higher pop of active members would be able to get more involved and enjoy the game more.

btw, sorry about not replying to your last PM, my box is overflowing. rest assured i've read it. your ideas are innovative and outside the box - but I'm afraid I'm still not convinced on the separate legislature idea yet. Governors yes though. full support .

Originally posted by GePap
What about all the other duties and aspects of a possible province? Lets say someone has a province they feel is underdeveloped, so they want a few more roads? This falls under PWM. Under the idea now, they might be able to make the workers, but don't have the power to use them. Also, what about garrison placement? What if a governor wnats to crush an uprising somewhere in their otherwise out of harm province by moving troops from city A to B instead of creating entertainers or taxmen or so forth? They would not have that power either, would they?

I have been calling for a smaller cabinet for a while now, so let me make it in a different light_ we have Governors elected to run provinces, all the facets of that prvince with 2 limits: They must follow the orders of ministers if ministers want something done specifically in a city, and two: Ministers can set quotas from provinces in terms of gold, luxuries, beakers, workers, troops, so forth. example:

SMAC awaits a war with Germany, and needs 4 knights for a campaign: he issues the orders for four knigths, and the governors, deciding how best to make them and wether they want thier cities used for military production or not, come up with the way to get 4 knights built themselves, to give to the SMC by the appointed time. Thhis way more people form part of the government, and we would also get a much more interesting issue into the game, horsetrading: governor X tells governor Y: fine, I build the knights this time, but next time we need them, I get to build my infrastcuture, while you have to bear the cost of troops. Having governors would also give us fertile ground for future Presidential candidates Vote for the successful governor of X! He will get the job done!

[Mr. President]

I think this sounds okay. Like MWIA (I think) said, this might spread the burden of city planning among more than one official.

[Octavian X]

I want to comment on this proposed system. Phoenatica has a system that is similar to what is proposed. At the moment, the nation is divided up into 12 provinces. Each province is headed by a governor. He decides the build queues, places laborers in each of the cities, and request workers to do specific jobs.
Each of the provinces is detemined well in advance. We have already defined territorty we do not control as in certain provinces. These are approved by vote.
Each election cycle, each province with at least one city under Phoenatican control. For example, this term, province 9 had a single active city, Pharsalos, so a new governor was elected. If a province grows to three or more cities after an election, the president appoints a governor, who is then approved by council vote. New provinces are named by the first appointed or elected governor.
On a side note, the governors are considered part of our legislative branch. They make up the Senate. The other legislative house is made up of the entirety of the Phoenatic citizenry. They are considered leaders, and as such, governors may not also be council members, nor president. They may, however, hold deputy positions.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Octavian, or any other Phoenatic reading this; can you tell us how powerful these governors are? In the case of a particular few cities being ideal in which to build a certain Wonder, units etc that are necessary for overall strategy, is it the governor who has the final say on what goes on in their charge? Or can the Council/Prez/people overrule them on a significantly important issue. Or has the problem of conflict between governors' wishes and peoples' wishes never arisen?

Y'see, here we seem to be interested in all the niggly legal loopholes, so I wondered how you sorted this out.

Cheers in advance.

[disorganizer]

The governor has the last word on the build queues on his province. But the executive part of government hold override rights under special conditions.
For example the cultural leader can override if he notices a cultural building will be better for overall culture.
As our constitution states clearly, if 2 citizens think a poll is needed on a topic under the area of a leader, they can force him to put up a citizen vote. He then has to comply to this vote or risk impeachment.

[Kuciwalker]

Wow. You guys give a lot more power to the citizens than we do. Unfortunately, our Code of Laws does not state anywhere that officials must follow polls.

[disorganizer]

we fought for that one in term1 ;-)
our constitution states clearly that the officials HAVE to follow the will of citizenry. the only problem was to define when and how they get to know this will...
but with some finetuning still to be done we have a pretty good ruleset at the moment to ensure this.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by disorganizer
we fought for that one in term1 ;-)
our constitution states clearly that the officials HAVE to follow the will of citizenry. the only problem was to define when and how they get to know this will...
but with some finetuning still to be done we have a pretty good ruleset at the moment to ensure this.

I fought AGAINST that in our first term

[Inverse Icarus]

oh, and question: what would we have to do to make this official?

[Kuciwalker]

OT: Uber, why'd you get rid of the <----WEST-EAST----> thing?

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by skywalker
OT: Uber, why'd you get rid of the <----WEST-EAST----> thing?

bored. very bored.

i need something good to put in there now

[Octavian X]

A few more notes on our system. In the event of an invasion, the military leader would be able to override queues to allow production of units. The Domestic Department dictates which cities build wonders.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Octavian X
A few more notes on our system. In the event of an invasion, the military leader would be able to override queues to allow production of units. The Domestic Department dictates which cities build wonders.

hey this guys a genius. give him a custom avatar

[GodKing]

Quite a few good ideas. I will rewrite in the when I get back from vacation (august 13th or so), so please keep working on it.

ps - this time I will remember to not use tab's and just use spaces.....

[Inverse Icarus]

Next Question:

Would/Should ordinary citizens be able to choose which City/Province they live in? Would this affect participation in any way?

Example:

Could people of the Province Uber Isle (just making one up) elect their govenor? Would the rest of Apolytonia be able to vote for Uber Isle's Governor?

Technically, couldnt this create radically different areas of the nation? Like a bunch of "War Sectors", and few "Culture Areas"? Basically breaking down into UFC controlled Sectors and DIA Controlled Sectors? Where people who live in a sector have one political blief and vote that way over and over again? Are there term limits on Govenors?

THE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW.

[Inverse Icarus]

Oh, and I've been skimming most of the posts now (I kinda skipped a few of them) and what Gepap said was true, it will get very confusing with people protesting for the PW minister for roads.

Perhaps some of the offices should be "broken down" entierely to the local level (city planner, pw minister, ie minister)? Or maybe the "National" minister could just sit back and approve the orders, or object where needed.

For example:

say we want to build some more cities and form a new province. Why would someone want to build settlers for someone else's cities? The National IE Minister and the National City Planner would have to intervene.

[Panag]

hi ,

what exact functions would these guys have , ....

have a nice day

[GePap]

If we at some point begin to use governors, and perhap move towards a governmet more similar to the phonetican system, we would have to, and I recommned, cutting the size of the cabinet down, dramatically. We would not need or really want 8 ministers and then prez. and VP. Like any borken record, 4 ministers are enough, specialy if we have governors.