Technology Trades Question

ShowTime · August 3, 2002, 02:29

Hey, I was wondering how you can convince AI civs to give you a tech? I was just playing as the Germans and I kept asking every civilaztion for a technology so I can catch up with them, but every time I ask they say "It can't be done".....not even when I put half my empire on the table. Why??

nbarclay · August 3, 2002, 03:12

(1) If you mean that literally, with any of the recent patches, the AI won't trade anything for cities. In the early days, some people tricked the AI by selling it cities and then immediately capturing them back, so Firaxis took away that ability. (Personally, I wish they'd come up with a more complex fix where the AI evaluates the defensibility of and ease of the player's attacking a potential purchase rather than rejecting the concept out of hand.)

(2) If you've blackened your reputation (whether by accident or on purpose), the AI will not trade something up front on its end for something per turn on your end no matter how favorable the terms. Your only hope for using gold to buy tech in such a case is to save up the gold to pay up front. Similarly, you might possibly be able to sell luxuries or strategic resources for gold and then use the gold to buy tech once you've saved up enough. But your payment will have to be up front if you find yourself in that situation.

Nathan

ShowTime · August 3, 2002, 23:44

Ok I played a bit more and got contact with other civs in other continents. They traded some techs with me but they were Polite towards me, the others who refused are always Cautious or worse towards me. Should I improve my reputation? I'm also kinda broke on cash and resources even tho I still have 10 cities now(lost 10 last time I played).

dawidge · August 4, 2002, 12:20

I've often wondered if gifting them a per-turn arrangement will help improved a soiled reputation.

Can anyone from Firaxis comment on whether giving the AI 1 gpt (or 5, or 10, or a luxury or resource) for 20 turns will make them more amenable to accepting per-turn deals after a deal has gone south (either by breaking it or having circumstances break it)?

Arrian · August 5, 2002, 10:58

I don't think that gifts will improve your rep. It certainly improves an AI civ's attitude towards you (gifting a luxury for 20 turns early in the game is a great way of getting your neighbors "polite").

Once you have a bad rep, where the AI refuses to sell you things on a per-turn basis (or buy them from you for cash up-front), I don't think you can rehabilitate. That type of rep means you've broken a trade deal or RoP agreement or something.

Speaking of which... In a recent game, I'm pretty sure I was nailed for "breaking a trade deal" because I was trading with a civ which was rapidly being conquered (trying to prop them up), and their trade connection w/me was severed. I didn't break that deal! But it seems I've been penalized for it. Comments from Firaxis?

-Arrian

dawidge · August 5, 2002, 18:27

You definitely get nailed whenever the deal is severed prematurely and it wasn't due to an action on the part of your trade partner. If your trade route gets cur by a third party, too bad. You're f*@ked for the rest of the game. I'm not sure if it is still this way in 1.29 (the only 1.29 game I've played is the Alamo...still working on it).

ShowTime · August 5, 2002, 21:44

Hmmmm ok I'll start a new game, everyone ganged up on me that last game and I lost around 4 cities last time I played, the only way they would give me peace was if I gave them each a city.

Theseus · August 6, 2002, 01:46

Showtime,

Start a new game, and use the bunch of us here for help and tips.

1) We'll help you kick the AI into oblivion.

2) You'll learn a lot, I hope.

Welcome aboard, and let the domination commence.

Arrian · August 6, 2002, 09:32

Watch out, Showtime. Theseus and I will turn you into a very bad man.

We will show you the power of the Dark Side...

Dawidge, it was a 1.29 game. No fix from Firaxis on that yet. That's a serious annoyance for the peaceful builder. Not that I'm particularly peaceful, even when I am a builder.

-Arrian

ShowTime · August 6, 2002, 19:24

Really? I'm interested

Hmmm i'm still not very good vs AI in regent

maybe we can start off there.

DrFell · August 6, 2002, 20:16

Oh yeah, if you want their hard-earned wisdom you need to beat the crap out of them for it

Here's a little strat that should work a treat on regent... just as a taster. Start up a tiny map pangea game as one of the 'ancient' civs, with a powerful UU (Egypt, Iroquois, Persia, etc). Beeline for the tech which makes the UU available. Build a number of cities fairly closely spaced together, and start building warriors/chariots in your cities. When you get about 20 of them, upgrade them all to your UU (so Persia builds warriors, Egypt can go without upgrading, and Iroquois builds chariots and only finishes researching horseback riding when they have the right number of chariots). Pick a target civ to decimate, send in all your units. When you've captured/razed a few cities sure for peace. You should be able to demand all their techs, cash, maps, and perhaps a couple cities too. Keep doing this to the other civs until you rule the world, the whole thing should be over in the ancient era on regent level.

This is a good tiny map strategy for deity, and if you can pull it off easily on regent, deity is only a few short hops away. Conquest is easily the most fun and most effective way of gaining tech parity on the highest level. I'll post a few pics from such games if anyone's interested.

Arrian · August 7, 2002, 10:07

Some general tips (my standard disclaimer is that I play on standard maps, so keep that in mind when I use specific numbers of cities or units):

-If you intend to fight, use a militaristic civ. It's worth it.

-If you intend to fight, do it early and often, and concentrate on it. The 1 acceptable sidetrack is to go ahead and try for the Colossus if you have a coastal town w/good production.

-UU is important. There are two schools of thought on this. The first is to have a powerful ancient UU (Mounted Warrior, Immortal, Legionary). That can be good, but prefer the second option: a powerful Medieval UU. This means Japan or China. They each have their strengths and weaknesses, try them both out.

-There is nothing more powerful than a well-placed Forbidden Palace.

-Be ruthless. Knock civs down to 1 city, get all their techs/gold/maps for peace, and mop them up later. In the meantime, go beat on someone else.

-Something I've recently started doing is to check diplomacy with all civs I have contact with EVERY TURN in the early going. If there is a worker for sale, buy it. One very important thing to remember is that if you use those workers, the former owners will get mad at you, because they're technically slave labor. Here's what I do with them: I add them to my capitol. This allows it to punch out some extra settlers and/or bounce back quicker. I was doing this last night on Monarch. I bought 5 or 6 workers from various AI civs. My score, prior to attacking anyone, was nearly double my nearest competitor.

Now, for setting up your armed forces in the ancient era:

As Japan: Build a core of 8-10 cities, connect up horses, build temple/barracks in each city that produces at least 2 shields, and start building chariots. While you are doing this, research bronzeworking, ironworking, warrior code. Slowly. Horde cash. Once you have ironworking, see if you have accessable iron. If so, build some veteran warriors (5-10), and then connect it. Upgrade those warriors to swordsmen (200-400 gold). If there are any barb camps around, send out your swords to kill them. Meanwhile, keep building chariots. Try to time your discovery of horseback riding for when you have 20-25 chariots (and enough money to upgrade them). Having done all that, select your target (nearest neighbor, generally) and start breaking things.

For China: There are 2 options here. The first is to use the one described above. The second tends to work best if you have lots of forest around your capitol. Build a barracks right away. Then build a few (3ish) archers. Then some settlers, then alternate archer/settler. Send those archers out, and if you find a non-Greek capitol nearby, take it. Then hang out in their cap. with your archers, killing the archers they will send your way. If you're lucky, you may get a leader out of that. If not, no big deal. Sue for peace and get their tech/gold/maps. Then proceed normally with the chariot upgrade gambit.

-Arrian

edit: I didn't explain why the archer attack works well with forest nearby the capitol. Industrious workers cut down forest in 4 or 5 turns, IIRC. That's 10 shields... or 1/2 an archer.

Theseus · August 7, 2002, 10:41

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell
Oh yeah, if you want their hard-earned wisdom you need to beat the crap out of them for it

LOL!!! God is it going to hurt in MP when someone pulls an early rush, and you gotta give in to the extortion!

Anyway, great tips from both DrFell and Arrian.

They both point out one of the most important lessons about Civ3: one of the best and easiest ways to set up for a winning game is a little early aggression. Of the many benefits:

* You hurt some of the AI civs.
* You might strengthen your own civ through capturing cities and workers.
* You might get a GL.
* You will extort gold and techs.
* You will have built, and will maintain, sufficient military strength to deter any remaining aggressive AI civs.

In terms of preferred approach, you can pick your own, but it all boils down to taking advantage of relative strength as quickly as you have it.

In the very early game, that's taking advantage of 2 things: Warrior Code if you start with it, and thus an ability to build Archers, and the knowledge that the AI civs are mostly focused on building Settlers.

Next up is either the era of Swordsmen or of Horses. In both cases, the trick is to pre-build the more primitive units that upgrade, like Warriors and Chariots, and making sure that you have enough gold on hand to mass upgrade the turn that you get Iron Working or Horseback Riding. Executed successfully, you are unstoppable.

The concept is repeated upon completing research on Chivalry, thus upgrading to Knight-level units... be aware though, this can be VERY expensive.

A couple of points:

Make sure to prioritize your attacks. Iroquois, Rome, and Persia can all be early threats, but can each be significantly damaged prior to achieving their UUs. France is often a later threat, and should be damaged prior to achieving Gunpowder.

Depending on the situation, be careful of your reputation. Don;t just attack... cancel your peace treaty first.

Don't be exclusively military... you must build happiness, commerce, and cultural buildings. Also, you want to keep expanding your empire via building new cities, especially to gain more resources. Lastly, certain GWs and SWs are very valuable... the best cities for military production are often the best for big projects... learn to balance.

Arrian · August 7, 2002, 10:59

Regarding the Horsemen -> Knights(or equivalent) upgrade, I usually wait until I have Leo's to do that. 80 gold a pop is a tad pricey.

Theseus is right about not building exclusively military units. But when I said concentrate on war, I meant it - until you're reached "critical mass." This is the point where you are confident you do not need any more units to deal with the wars your are fighting and/or intend to fight in the near future. Then it's time to build your infrastructure up (marketplaces are KEY).

As for Great Wonders:

Colossus: this little baby is a treasure. Literally. You can almost always beat the AI to it, and it lasts until Flight. Go for it if you can (largely uncorrupted coastal city required).

Pyramids: nice if you get them... capture is best. A very early GL might be used on these, but I'd rather have a FP or even an army for the HE.

Great Lighthouse: Depends on the map. Can be nice. Can be fairly useless. Not worth spending your time and effort on, unless your wars are going REALLY well, and you can fight them with one hand (well, one city) tied behind your back.

Oracle: Crap. Waste-of-shields *clap, clap, clapclapclap* Capturing it is fine, though.

Great Library: mmmm. I love the Library. But it may not be at all useful to you. I often build or rush it, though, if only to keep it out of the AI's hands. It can be a great money-maker, if there are some solid civs on your continent you are not fighting. You can leach off of them while finishing off the others, and build up your gold reserves at the same time... in perparation for the Chivalry upgrade

Great Wall: See Oracle comment. Double it.

Hanging Gardens: Nice to have. Happiness always good. Lasts until Steam Power, which is a decent span of time. But don't strain yourself for this one.

Sun Tzu: Nice, but as a militarist civ, non-essential. Get it if you can. Good to deny to the AI, clearly.

Sistine: One of the the best in the game. A must-build/rush. If an AI somehow gets it, they just hung a sign on them that reads "TARGET"

Leo's: Essential for the warmonger. A penny saved is a penny earned...

Copernicus: I like it. I like it a lot. There have been times, however, when I've had to choose between it and Bach. I've chosen Bach just about every time.

Bach: Happiness, no expiration. 'nough said.

Adam Smith: See my comment on Leo's.

Newton: This should be easier to get, as there shouldn't be a cascade effect here from earlier wonders.

Magellan: nice. Non-essential, but nice.

Shakespeare: A tale told by an idiot - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Some like it. I have no desire for it.

ToE: essential

Hoover: essential

Univ. Suffrage: very useful.

If you are getting beaten to the industrial wonders, you're not doing all that well.

After the Ind. Age... you haven't won yet?

-Arrian

steven8r · August 7, 2002, 18:54

I have a couple of ?? about Arrian's and Theseus's suggested strategies.

Can you upgrade TO a UU? I remember playing Germany that I was very disapointed that I couldn't turn my hordes of Cavalry into Panzers. It may just be the mod that I'm playing--in which case I can change that.

Any fine tips on early warfare regarding 'Tech Smacking'. I was playing the Zulu on Deity and waaaay behind on techs. I decided to 'Smack the Tech' out of the Persians. By the third or fourth battle--which I'd been winning, all of a sudden my Archers were getting slain unmercifuly by Imortals. Next thing I know, I'm looking at my battered face surrounded by jeering leaders.

I guess the obvious solution is start the fight earlier and/or deny them iron, but any other early strats?

Theseus · August 7, 2002, 19:11

You can definitely upgrade to UUs, but Cavs are a dead end... Tanks and Panzers have to be built from scratch (except that you can pre-build, of course).

I haven't played much with the Zulu or Aztec, but I think the whole trick is to use your fastmovers to deny dangerous early civs the resources required for their UUs (actually, deny EVERYBODY access to Iron and Horses).

Calling Doctors Aeson and Vel? Calling Doctors Aeson and Vel? You're needed in the emergency early warfare room, stat.

Catt · August 7, 2002, 19:12

Quote:

Originally posted by steven8r
I have a couple of ?? about Arrian's and Theseus's suggested strategies.

Can you upgrade TO a UU? I remember playing Germany that I was very disapointed that I couldn't turn my hordes of Cavalry into Panzers. It may just be the mod that I'm playing--in which case I can change that.

Any fine tips on early warfare regarding 'Tech Smacking'. I was playing the Zulu on Deity and waaaay behind on techs. I decided to 'Smack the Tech' out of the Persians. By the third or fourth battle--which I'd been winning, all of a sudden my Archers were getting slain unmercifuly by Imortals. Next thing I know, I'm looking at my battered face surrounded by jeering leaders.

I guess the obvious solution is start the fight earlier and/or deny them iron, but any other early strats?

In earlier versions of the game upgrading to UUs (or from UUs

?) was problematic - this has now been fixed. The reason you can't upgrade to a panzer is because nothing upgrades to tanks - cavalry is the last in a long line of offensive upgrades (chariots - horsemen - knights - cavalry).

There are a lot of threads on finer tips on the "Technology Research by War" strat, and I won't try to compile them here (you hit two obvious pieces of advice) - but a few short one's:

(1) overwhelm with numbers. Even inferior units can crush a superior foe, but you need to hit them with numbers and cripple them fast - if you fail to slice and dice big chunks from their empire quickly, you will face the AI production bonuses and technology advantages that you just experienced - at least those impi occasionally retreat from the immortals, huh?

A swarm of horsemen protected by those wonderful 2-move impis can be a hellish force to face - but if you don't blitz the AI at full speed, you will bog down.

(2) when you finally do achieve relative unit superiority, be prepared to use it quickly, and then use it quickly - it will fade soon enough at Diety. You should discover horseback riding with 15+ chariots sitting in barracks-enabled cities near your chosen target's borders and enough gold to upgrade them all. The AI will have (or does have) horsemen soon enough - you need those 15 horsies on the attack immediately (substitute Chivalry / Knights or Military Tradition / Cavalry as needed).

Just a few thoughts.

Catt

ShowTime · August 7, 2002, 19:52

Well ok, I'm now playing a game as the Germans.... I built up a few cities and temples then massed up alot of swordsmen. The Persians on the other side of the world decide to declare war on me for not letting them get my territory map for free. Then next turn the English sign a military alliance with them against me...by the next 2 turns im fighting against the babylonians, zulu, french, and greeks(my neighbors) too. So I send about 10 swordsmen to a little greek city by my border and they all got slaughtered by one hoplite. I send some more across the jungle to attack my other neighbor(babylonians) on the other side but they have alot of spearmen and beat me....Then the last handful of turns I have been defending against the whole world kinda good only losing 2 cities vs everyone. Hmm I wonder how long can I hold them? Not very I'm guessing. So i'll just start a new game using that fast attack/upgrading strategy yous suggest

DrFell · August 7, 2002, 20:33

The Zulus are the best resource denial civ in the game, for a couple reasons. You have scouts, and you also have Impi. One unit takes care of resource denial in peacetime, the other takes care of resource denial during war. Aztecs are also good, but the strategy for them is slightly different and more aggressive.

Zulus
Playing as the Zulu, send in your scouts to sit on iron supplies in your neighbors' territory ASAP. Early on in the game you should build a plentiful supply of scouts. The AI will demand they leave periodically, but you can nearly always move them back onto the resource in time (as the borders will rarely be more than 2 squares in the ancient age). Once you have enough scouts to take care of all the iron, switch to building Impi and horsemen (assuming you've hooked up horses, otherwise you're going to need to build swordsmen instead). Use the chariot->horseman upgrade path to speed things up (warrior->swordsmen in the case of no horses), and don't forget that both Impi and chariots are great as you can pop-rush both of them cheaply, so do this if you have the luxuries. Position your Impi in strategic locations, making sure stacks of several (2+, depending on map size and size of your opponent) Impi are prepared to move in as soon as you declare war, and preferably seize all the iron sources on turn 1 (and the horse resources if possible). Also build some veteran Impi to send along with your horsemen, to protect from any counterattacks.

When the time comes for war, you should be able to send your horsemen in to capture the opponent's key cities. Aim for any horse resources he owns, as well as the iron resources (lower priority) or luxuries, especially any ones you don't already have. Also aim to take out and raze his capital if he's built a wonder other than Pyramids or Great Library (in which case you want to capture the city). The war should go easily for you, as he is unable to construct swordsmen, and must rely on archers or horsemen for combat. The problem with horsemen vs Impi is the lack of retreat for the horsies... he will likely end up suffering pretty nasty casualty rates. All in all, a solid strategy, if executed properly the AI should stand no chance, unless he has developed gunpowder of course (in which case you can also deny his saltpetre resources too, if you have the time!).

Aztecs
Now, the Aztecs are definitely different. The big difference between the Aztec and Zulu strategies are defined by the lack of Aztec scouts. If you really want to deny resources, you will have to be either lucky (in that you may be able to cut the roads leading the resource to the enemy civ's capital in no-mans-land, e.g. a gap between the culture borders), or you will have to declare war outright at the start, and head in and sit on the resources. Obviously, in a bigger game this option may be far from desireable, as you don't want to tie up your resources in a big war too early on. You will also likely encounter more resistance, end up capturing more heavily pop-rushed cities, and in general end up getting far less for the effort you put in.

The best use, resource denial wise, of the Jaguar Warrior, is to set them up close to the resources of your target civ. Since they are cheaper, you may also want to set them up near major road systems, etc. The idea is to build up in nearly the exact same way as you would if you were conducting a Zulu rush, minus the Impi of course. However, in this case you want to head in and cut up the enemy after you declare war. When war is declared, tear up the major road systems, cut off access to the horses, and sit on the iron waiting to pillage it next turn. This is less desirable than denying the enemy the resource right from turn 1 (or thereabouts

), but it is still far better than facing a dangerous nation with the full capability to produce horsemen and swordsmen, or worse. You will be facing stiffer resistance initially, but you can send in lots more cheap Jags to try and wear the enemy down (works especially well against horsemen if you actually attack them).

In conclusion, not as good as the Zulus, but still pretty decent, and superior to a regular civ with a more expensive or slower UU.

Theseus · August 8, 2002, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by ShowTime
Well ok, I'm now playing a game as the Germans.... I built up a few cities and temples then massed up alot of swordsmen. The Persians on the other side of the world decide to declare war on me for not letting them get my territory map for free. Then next turn the English sign a military alliance with them against me...by the next 2 turns im fighting against the babylonians, zulu, french, and greeks(my neighbors) too. So I send about 10 swordsmen to a little greek city by my border and they all got slaughtered by one hoplite. I send some more across the jungle to attack my other neighbor(babylonians) on the other side but they have alot of spearmen and beat me....Then the last handful of turns I have been defending against the whole world kinda good only losing 2 cities vs everyone. Hmm I wonder how long can I hold them? Not very I'm guessing. So i'll just start a new game using that fast attack/upgrading strategy yous suggest

When playing as Germany, your first attack should be with Archers, against anybody except Greece and Rome.

Also, you are one tech away from Iron Working... that should be your highest priority. I would attack, again anybody but Greece and Rome, as soon as I had six reg and vet Swordsmen ready to go out (with whatever's left of the Archers, too).

This should happen well before embassies and especially Mapmaking, btw. Sound like you may have waited too long.

At this point, I'd be saving a lot of gold, to make sure I create embassies ASAP, and get military alliances with the strong early civs (Greece, Rome, Persia). I'd be pumping out vet Swordsmen. Probably the only thing I'd be focused on otherwise would be Horseback Riding.

Lastly, even if far away, if Persia asks for my territory map, I give it up, no problem. Of course, my mounted forces remember the shame...