Courthouses - when do you build them?

[Ribannah]

I tend to build Courthouses before Libraries and Marketplaces, if I can even before Temples, and eventually I want them in all my cities except the most remote ones or when I'm already nearing victory.

Do you do the same or do you ignore them / keep coughing up new Settlers in border towns?

[dawidge]

It depends.

Vel's construction rule #1: Build marketplaces and banks as soon as possible, buying them if necessary.

The possible exception to this is if you are suffering from WW or rampant corruption, in which case a courthouse might precede a marketplace (again, buy it if necessary... buying the courthouse first will make buying the marketplace a little cheaper as more shields will have gone into the first turn og the marketplace build).

Unless I'm really behind in tech or gunning for culture, I'll delay building the library until more important things are dealth with (in no particular order - courthouse, marketplace, bank, factory, temple, barracks).

As usual, YMMV.

[candybo]

With me, it depend mostly on the individual city in question, and corruption effects

[Alex]

It is a matter of bang for the buck. If you have a city whose strategic importance is vital to your empire, then by all means build a courthouse to alleviate corruption. On the other hand, if the city is not that important, you can skip the courthouse.

But there is another important consideration here: if you build a marketplace to improve the gold generation in a city and all that gold is lost due to corruption, your marketplace is not of much use to you. Better build a courthouse before the marketplace.

[alva]

Indeed, this is a case by case thing

[Lord Merciless]

Courthouse gains importance as the distance to your capital and the number of cities increase. However, there is a point at which even a Courthouse can no longer reduce the corruption below 95%. By then, the Courthouse becomes useless.

I always build Courthouse when Corruption is greater than 50%.

[Theseus]

This is almost a non-logical, non-trivial issue for me, but Temples MUST BE BUILT FIRST!

After that, it's either Libraries, Harbors, or Courthouses, depending on the situation.

Lately, I've been prioritizing Courthouses, however... I've even experimented in burning late GLs just to get them up and running.

I like your rule of thumb, Lord Merciless... it sort of matches the way I've been playing.

BTW, Police Stations are equally important, and have a similar priority.

[Catt]

Definitely a case-by-case thing . . . but I pretty much agree with Theseus in 99% of the cases. For me, getting that first cultural improvement completed is very important - I need the border expansion, either to: (1) reduce the effectiveness of enemy attacks (loss of movement points in getting to target), (2) relieve some of the cultural pressure (culture flip), or (3) where the front lines are moving so quickly that enemy attack is unlikely, to claim the vast open spaces between former AI cities before third-party settlers claim land.

If a peaceful expansion, courthouses often don't make my top 5 build list, only because most of my peaceful expansion takes place within confines where corruption is tolerable. In those cases where corruption is truly problematic but I am expanding peacefully with settlers, I am still likely to build a temple (if religious) or a library (if not religious) first just to get the border expansion started as soon as possible.

Catt

[The Pioneer]

Temple->Libraries->Marketplace->Aqueducts

Is the general line I follow, although this varies greatly from city to city and game to game. I do not consider Courthouses until much later. I never play above Regent so and there is no acute need for them until the cities really grow in size and distance (from the capital).

So long...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Theseus
This is almost a non-logical, non-trivial issue for me, but Temples MUST BE BUILT FIRST!

Why, if [1] I already have 5 luxuries and the Hanging Gardens or [2] I have to set luxuries at 30% anyway to keep the capital content? (This when there's no cultural threat or important resource two squares out.)

Most of my games are over or near the end by the time I can build Police Stations so the considerations are different.

The Pioneer, wouldn't your Aqueduct be completed much earlier had you built a Courthouse as your first improvement?

[Bambul]

Usually I build Temple-Granary-Library. If corruption is high I will build a couthouse first, unless I have enough luxuries (between 6-8) in which case I will build a marketplace instead to get WLTKD and reduce corruption that way.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Theseus
This is almost a non-logical, non-trivial issue for me, but Temples MUST BE BUILT FIRST!

Right after Barracks, that is!

[Arrian]

Case-by-case, of course, but in general I put a high priority on courthouses. They're pretty effective. I tend to start building them as soon as I have code of laws. Any city that has 50% or less shield wasteage early on starts one. That's my "is it worth it at this point" test. Later I will buy courthouses farther out from the core, but in the crucial early going, I spend on the better-placed towns.

Later on...

In a city that is distant, but has hope of becoming productive:

Temple
Courthouse
Marketplace
Aqueduct (if needed)
Harbor (if needed)
Library
...etc, etc.

For an "overseas colony" with some hope of productivity (I use these babies to steal luxuries from the AI):

Temple
Barracks
*may rush several spearmen*
Harbor
*upgrade any cheapy spearmen*
Walls
Courthouse
Library
Marketplace
Aqueduct
...

Or something like that

-Arrian

[publius]

Originally posted by Theseus
This is almost a non-logical, non-trivial issue for me, but Temples MUST BE BUILT FIRST!

i used to build temples first, but if you're playing a scientific civ it's cheaper to go with libraries... plus they have a higher culture rating, so that you get a border expansion in fewer turns.

[publius]

[SIZE=1]But there is another important consideration here: if you build a marketplace to improve the gold generation in a city and all that gold is lost due to corruption, your marketplace is not of much use to you. Better build a courthouse before the marketplace.

well, a lot of times i'm building the marketplace as much for all those happy faces as for the gold...

[Arrian]

Publius,

Theseus and I don't play scientific civs much (or am I wrong about that one, Theseus?).

I agree with you, the marketplace is for WLTKD. I would build the courthouse first in almost every instance, though. Then, coupled with WLTKD, you may have a semi-productive town, even 1/2way around the world.

Your handle wouldn't happen to be a Publius Varrus reference would it (total shot in the dark by me here)?

-Arrian

[Lord Merciless]

Marketplace is indeed very useful, as the WLTK day itself reduces the corruption by quite a bit. If you can achieve a WLTK day by building the Marketplace, then you should build it before the Courthouse. In addition to the WLTK effect, Marketplace also increases the tax revenue by 50% AFTER Corruption is subtracted.

[Theseus]

Arrian's right, I don;t play scientific civs much.

I'm much, much more focused on happiness, 2nd-level territory expansion, production, and cash. So, temples, marketplaces (& luxuries, and courthouses are all high priority builds, along with harbors / airports for cities on other continents.

Food and research are last on the list.

[Nakar Gabab]

Could someone direct me to the thread where Vel made the case for marketplace prioritization? I read it here and in a few other threads, but I can't seem to find the original statement...

[Harm]

I'm a temple man myself, courthouses come into play in my games pretty late. Often after I'm midway through the Middle Ages.

Most of the time I have offensive and defensive units as a higher priority than a courthouse, though I can definitely see a good reason to build them.

[dawidge]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
Could someone direct me to the thread where Vel made the case for marketplace prioritization? I read it here and in a few other threads, but I can't seem to find the original statement...

It's in the "I can't keep up w/the Jones'" thread from a few weeks ago.

This link will take you right to Vel's post

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...postid=1097906

[edit: fixed the thread name and the search highlighting]

[DrFell]

I don't build many courthouses very often, but when I do, I usually place them in the further out core cities to minimize corruption so my markets and libraries are able to generate as much revenue as possible. Often around my core I have a large number of 'junk cities' with no real improvements but perhaps barracks and a couple culture improvements in them (and markets if I want to use them as drafting centres). These cities work as buffers to hold off attacks and also help claim any luxuries/resources they cover. They're also good to rush units in if you get caught up in a short war, but virtually none of these cities get courthouses as the expense is not worth the gain.

Of course there are situations where I'd build courthouses much earlier on, but these are rarer. In fact I often find myself building no improvements at all bar the Forbidden Palace and barracks in the ancient and medieval ages, so the gain of building a courthouse would again be wasted.

As for temples, I hate having to build them, they're only really good for the culture unless you're in republic and stuggling to keep your cities happy, or of course if you happen to be a religious civ. As I often have control of several luxuries by the time temples become a viable build option, I find myself focusing on marketplaces to keep the populace happy, and libraries to expand the borders. Both have more tangible benefits than temples (only one content citizen, ugh...). Give me +50% tax revenue or +50% science any day. Temples can wait until the cities start getting really big.

[nbarclay]

I'm VERY production-oriented in 4X games, Civ 3 included. My basic premise is that if I build a production improvement and then something else, I save shields compared with building something else and then the production improvement. Those extra shields mean that for the rest of the game (at least until I run out of things I want to build), completion times are a bit ahead.

When courthouses first become available, they tend to be priority one in any city with significant corruption (with the cutoff probably somewhere around a third, although I don't have a fixed formula). At that point, I'm still a long way away from having Currency or Construction, so they don't have to compete with marketplaces and aqueducts. (If I'm playing a religious civ, while I'm still in Despotism, I'll probably pop rush a temple first if the city is far away. After all, pop rushing works just as well whether the city has the courthouse to boost its production or not.) And almost all my cities get courthouses sooner or later.

By the time other improvements that can affect production (either directly or by their effect on population and happiness) start to seriously compete with courthouses for my attention, the only cities left where I want courthouses and don't have them are generally far enough out to really NEED them. I might rush build a cultural improvement if I think a flip might be at stake, but otherwise, the courthouse is job one unless the city is completely hopeless. (Note that by that point, I'm almost always a Republic.)

Nathan

[Catt]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm VERY production-oriented in 4X games . . . .

Okay, I'll bite. I've seen the shorthand phrase "4x games" several times over the last few days. What attributes make a game a "4x game"?

Thanks,

Catt

[Arrian]

Originally posted by dawidge

It's in the "I can't keep up w/the Jones'" thread from a few weeks ago.

This link will take you right to Vel's post

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...postid=1097906

How did I manage to miss that thread? Anyway, despite the fact that I wholeheartedly agree with Vel about the power of marketplaces, I don't do the beeline he does (math -> currency). I do switch just about every city over to markeplaces once I get currency, though. I have noticed recently the value the AI puts on mathematics. This is a new discovery for me, and is confirmed by Vel's experience.

I suppose the reason I don't beeline for currency is that I'm either a) concentrating on beating the snot out of the AI, which means hording gold for chariot & warrior upgrades, while expecting to beat tech out of the AI or b) building the GL, which means I need literature. It's an interesting idea, though, especially if you're playing a commercial civ (start with alphabet).

-Arrian

4x...

Exploration
Expansion
Exploitation (?)
?

[Kloreep]

...Extermination, IIRC.

I build Courthouses ASAP in any city losing three or four shields and/or commerce. I usually wait quite a bit in my core cities, though; usually until well into the midieval era.

[alva]

eXtortion?

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Catt
Okay, I'll bite. I've seen the shorthand phrase "4x games" several times over the last few days. What attributes make a game a "4x game"?

Thanks,

Catt

Per the civ3-general-abbreviations, abbreviations thread:

4X: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate (Civ is, of course, the mother of all 4X games)

(just so it's all in one place)

[thorpey]

Damn... and here was me thinking 4X was a beer...

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Per the civ3-general-abbreviations, abbreviations thread:

4X: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate (Civ is, of course, the mother of all 4X games)

(just so it's all in one place)

Damn. I even scanned that thread quickly (but didn't use the "find" command). Thanks .

Catt