Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2002, 16:15

Cities:
Berlin
München
Hamburg
Köln
Leipzig
Wien
Frankfurt
Dresden
Nürnberg
Königsberg
Zürich
Basel
Bern
Essen
Dortmund
Danzig
Bonn
Weimar
Stuttgart
Heidelberg
Salzburg
Strassburg
Freiburg
Hannover
Rostock
Aachen
Trier
Graz
Worms
Speyer
Chemnitz
Ulm
Magdeburg
Augsburg
Saarbrücken
Kiel
Münster
Bochum
Kassel
Breslau
Mannheim
Stettin
Innsbruck
Osnabrück
Koblenz
Darmstadt
Hildesheim
Schwerin
Bielefeld
Linz
Erfurt
Göttingen
Regensburg
Würzburg
Flensburg
Düsseldorf
Lübeck
Paderborn
Potsdam
Wittenberg
Travemünde
Jena
Wuppertal
Zwickau
Erlangen
Mühlhausen
Rothenburg

Leaders:
Barbarossa
Rommel
Blücher
Rudolf Habsburg
Manstein
Hindenburg
Otto III
Prinz Eugen
Karl der Große
Moltke
Klausewitz
Friedrich
Ludendorff
Guderian
Radetzky
Erzherzog Karl

Americans:
Washington
New York
Boston
Philadelphia
Jamestown
Los Angeles
Atlanta
Chicago
San Francisco
Houston
St. Louis
Jacksonville
Detroit
New Orleans
Salt Lake City
Baltimore
Denver
Dallas
Miami
Kansas City
Cleveland
San Diego
Richmond
Nashville
Sacramento
Santa Fe
Las Vegas
Phoenix
Seattle
Indianapolis
Memphis
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Portland
Cincinnati
Orlando
Tucson
Albuquerque
Colorado Springs
Hartford
Syracuse
Columbus
Norfolk
Albany
Oakland
Milwaukee
Austin
St. Paul
Oklahoma City
Baton Rouge
El Paso
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Springfield
Spokane
Newark
Fresno
Fort Worth
Tampa
Boise
Berkley
Grand Rapids
Carson City
Tacoma
Cheyenne
Helena
Omaha
Dayton
Raleigh
Columbia
San Antonio
Madison
Lincoln
Topeka
Lexington
Knocksville
Savannah
Jefferson City
Little Rock
Charlotte
Worcester
Honolulu
Tulsa
Louisville
Corpus Christi
Wichita
Lansing
Salem
Erie
Jersey City
Jackson
Winston Salem
Fort Lauderdale
Huntsville
Montgomery
Rochester
Tallahassee
Bismarck
Mobile
Augusta
Frankfort
Lexington
Annapolis
Concord
Fargo
Charleston
Georgetown
Dover
Trenton
Eugene
Key West
Pierre

Leaders:
Washington
Lee
Sherman
Jackson
Grant
MacArthur
Patton
Jefferson
Eisenhower
Franklin
Pershing
Nimitz
Roosevelt

Comments, suggestions?

Ribannah · August 4, 2002, 17:06

Were the following cities founded by Americans?

New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, San Diego, Sacramento, Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Baton Rouge, Tacoma, Cheyenne, San Antonio, Topeka, Honolulu, Erie, Tallahassee (and probably others)?

And what is Clinton doing on the leader list?

I'd pick JF Kennedy!

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 17:49

I think the Germany, as defined today, should begin its history after the split of Charlemagne's empire. Thus, Alarich, Odoaker, and Theoderich should not be names.

I propose the following additional German GLs:
Martin Luther,
Friedrich der Grosse,
Karl von Klausewitz,
Franz Joseph I,
Karl Marx,
Erich Ludendorff,
Werner von Heisenberg,
Friedrich Ebert,
Adolf Hitler,
Heinz Guderian,
Konrad Adenauer.

Clinton? Are you kidding?

And I propose the following additional American GLs:
Thomas Jefferson,
Andrew Jackson,
John Pershing,
Omar Bradley,
Cheser Nimitz,
George Marshall,
Dwight Eisenhower,
Teddy Roosevelt,
FR, Roosevelt.

sabrewolf · August 4, 2002, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Cities:
Zürich
Basel
Bern
Salzburg
Straßburg
Stettin

- zürich, basel, bern are swiss cities, never belonged to germany
- salzburg is a austrian city
- strassburg is presently in france (alsass), has a big german influence and was under control of each civ a couple of times.
btw: the double-s (ß) has been removed in the newest german language reform

- stettin iirc a czeckcity (?? i'm not sure about this, though ??)

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Leaders:
Barbarossa
Rommel
Blücher
Alarich
Manstein
Odoaker
Hindenburg
Theoderich
Otto III

karl der grosse
hitler
moltke

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Were the following cities founded by Americans?

New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, San Diego, Sacramento, Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Baton Rouge, Tacoma, Cheyenne, San Antonio, Topeka, Honolulu, Erie, Tallahassee (and probably others)?

Who cares? London was not founded by English, Paris was not founded by French, Salamanca was not founded by the Iroquois, Alexandria was not founded by the Egyptians, Toledo was not founded by the Spanish, and Cologne was not founded by Germans.

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf

- zürich, basel, bern are swiss cities, never belonged to germany
- salzburg is a austrian city
- strassburg is presently in france (alsass), has a big german influence and was under control of each civ a couple of times.
btw: the double-s (ß) has been removed in the newest german language reform

- stettin iirc a czeckcity (?? i'm not sure about this, though ??)

There is no Austria in this game. Austrians speak German so I don't see why their cities and leaders should not be merged with that of Germans, especially if you included Karl der Grosse as a German leader.

Before the Swiss rebelled against the Empire, all those cities belonged to the German "Empire". I think you guys still speak German today, with some variations of course. There is no Switzerland in this game, so naturally you guys belong to the German civilization.

sabrewolf · August 4, 2002, 17:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Who cares? London was not founded by English, Paris was not founded by French, Salamanca was not founded by the Iroquois, Alexandria was not founded by the Egyptians, Toledo was not founded by the Spanish, and Cologne was not founded by Germans.

interesting .... who founded these cities?
paris, former lutetia, founded by the gauls (?) which you could call french

alexandria probably from alexander the great (macedonian), but i'm sure there was a city there before from the egyptians.
teledo from arabs?
cologne wasn't from the germans? sure? (btw: german name: köln)

sabrewolf · August 4, 2002, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
There is no Austria in this game. Austrians speak German so I don't see why their cities and leaders should not be merged with that of Germans, especially if you included Karl der Grosse as a German leader.

Before the Swiss rebelled against the Empire, all those cities belonged to the German "Empire". I think you guys still speak German today, with some variations of course. There is no Switzerland in this game, so naturally you guys belong to the German civilization.

well, switzerland really never belonged to the german empire (independent (from austria since 1291), allthough 60% speak german. big influence: yes - control: no.

by the way: interesting theory

so add perth, sidney, adelaide, wellington, etc. to english civ because OZ and NZ aren't included either.
buenos aires, santiago, la paz, etc. would belong to the spanish (ok, they aren't there either... not yet)...

i don't agree in adding cities to an empire only because they happen to have the same language...

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 18:11

London was founded by Romans as Londinium. There might be some small Celtic settlements there before, but it became a town under Romans.

Paris owned its name to Romans as well and was formerly called Lutetia Parisorium. But Lutetia itself was a fairly large Celtic settlement already, so you can say that Paris was founded by Celts.

Alexandria might have a similar past like London. It was promoted to a city by Alexander and Ptolemy.

Cologne was founded by Romans as Colonia Aggripina. The German barbarians were too lazy and illiterate to spell out the full name later on, so the city name morphed into Koeln/Cologne.

Toledo was also founded by Romans as Toletum, but it might have a Celtic past, too.

Also most great cities in France are almost completely Roman or Celtic in origin. For example, Lyonswas Lugdunum, Strassburg Argentoratum, Marseille Marsillia, and Bordeaux Burdigala.

Eburacum was an interesting city because it became York later, and if you add a 'New' to its name...

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 18:13

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf

so add perth, sidney, adelaide, wellington, etc. to english civ because OZ and NZ aren't included either.
buenos aires, santiago, la paz, etc. would belong to the spanish (ok, they aren't there either... not yet)...

i don't agree in adding cities to an empire only because they happen to have the same language...

Why not? They belong to the same cultural circle, or civilization. I would add Singapore and Taipeh to Chinese cities as well, and Chiang Kai-Chek as Chinese GL.

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2002, 18:57

Quote:

Chiang Kai-Chek as Chinese GL

Done.

But I got a lot to reply:

sabrewolf: As you can see from my flag: I'm Austrian, so I know where Basael and Salzburg are

I decided to have them in, because basically German Switzerland and modern Austria are part of the German culture/civilization. I don't say this, because I'm a megalomanic Großdeutscher, I'm quite happy being an Austrian, but because I have to acknowledge several hundreds of years similar history and shared culture. But you remind me that I should add more Austrian cities.
Stettin is actually a city in Poland, but has a very large German history. Thus, in a discussion with some Poles, we've decided to have it in both lists, once as Stettin, once as Sceczin (or similar)

The discussion about "To which civ does this city actually belong" can be led endlessly. Generally, I've tried to give them to that city, where it was more important or to which it longer belonged. In some cases, where the city was very important to several civs, I tried to have it in both lists with different names (Constantinopolis/Istanbul...)

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2002, 19:08

sabrewolf: About not wanting to have cities belong to an "empire". Although technically, in Civ3 one plays an empire, don't forget that you're playing a whole civ.

For example, the Indian territories were rarely so united as they are in the past 100 years (less than Switzerland was part of the Holy Roman Empire), yet they belong to the same civ.

The Aztec city list not only has cities which were part of the Aztec Empire, but also cities which alreasdy were abandoned when the Aztecs arrived in Mexico. Yet it is legitimate to have them in, as they had a similar culture.

sabrewolf · August 4, 2002, 19:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
sabrewolf: As you can see from my flag: I'm Austrian, so I know where Basael and Salzburg are

I decided to have them in, because basically German Switzerland and modern Austria are part of the German culture/civilization. I don't say this, because I'm a megalomanic Großdeutscher, I'm quite happy being an Austrian, but because I have to acknowledge several hundreds of years similar history and shared culture. But you remind me that I should add more Austrian cities.
Stettin is actually a city in Poland, but has a very large German history. Thus, in a discussion with some Poles, we've decided to have it in both lists, once as Stettin, once as Sceczin (or similar)

The discussion about "To which civ does this city actually belong" can be led endlessly. Generally, I've tried to give them to that city, where it was more important or to which it longer belonged. In some cases, where the city was very important to several civs, I tried to have it in both lists with different names (Constantinopolis/Istanbul...)

ah... i didn't recognise the austrian flag because of that black "blob" in the middle... but now you mention it: i guess it's an eagle... didn't know, that's official?

anyhow: i can accept your and lord merciless's argumentation. in the beginning i was just worried it would be another of these cases, where people are ignorant. as i see now, you've thought about all this before, so you've got my blessing

good convincing work going on... well done

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2002, 19:13

Oh, BTW, I won't add Hitler, because I simply don't want this ****ing bastard, disgrace of humanity in my modpack as a "Great Leader".

Lord Merciless · August 4, 2002, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Oh, BTW, I won't add Hitler, because I simply don't want this ****ing bastard, disgrace of humanity in my modpack as a "Great Leader".

Agreed.

Hagbart · August 5, 2002, 17:49

Hi!

Are you sure Strassburg (Strasbourg in French) should be a german city? I know that tru the times it has switched from France to Germany to France... but it is French now and will (probably) be that forever. But i don't know. BTW: Just visited the city this summer, great city

, and you sure notice the germanic influence on the city and names, but still it has French (latin) influence too. The Romans had it too in a period.

I would make it a French city.

Wernazuma III · August 5, 2002, 17:58

Well, Hagbart: Let's hope, Straßbourg will remain French, we don't need another war here.
Anyway, I put the city here, because I came to the opinion that it was longer a German city than French and people there for a long time spoke German in the vast majority, and after all it was founded by Germans. I agree though, it's one of the delicate issues, just like Stettin or Danzig.

If many people have bad feelings about this, I'll remove it or give it to France.

lockstep · August 5, 2002, 18:56

I'd say Strassburg/Strasbourg should be in the German as well as the French city list.

BTW, six Austrian cities (Wien, Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck, Klagenfurt) in a list of less than 70 German-speaking cities, including former ones? You really must be happy being an Austrian ...

Wernazuma III · August 6, 2002, 12:06

Well, maybe Klagenfurt was a bit exaggerated, but beside that I think that all of them deserve a place.

Lord Merciless · August 6, 2002, 13:00

Remember, Strassburg is also in the Roman city list as Argentoratum.

Jay Bee · August 6, 2002, 13:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Toledo was also founded by Romans as Toletum, but it might have a Celtic past, too.

Toledo is of Celtic origin, yes. The Romans just took over. Whether they changed its name or adapted the preexisting one is unknown.

Wernazuma III · August 6, 2002, 14:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Remember, Strassburg is also in the Roman city list as Argentoratum.

Most Roman cities are on other lists. As long as they sound differently...

GoodFella · August 12, 2002, 16:21

Perhaps you might want to add Norman Schwarzkopf onto the list of American GLs.

Wernazuma III · August 12, 2002, 17:06

I'm not sure, what do others say?

Somehow I get the feeling that there are not many Americans here in this discussion? Why is that?

sabrewolf · August 12, 2002, 17:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I'm not sure, what do others say?

Somehow I get the feeling that there are not many Americans here in this discussion? Why is that?

maybe not interested in world topics

norman schwarzkopf? he wasn't anything like a _great_ leader... a leader, yes, but never great.
he lead a war that lasted basicly a few days. a war where there was hardly any death and destruction on one side, but on the other side was the cause of thousands of casulties.
so, i think norm doesn't deserved to be mentioned...

GoodFella · August 13, 2002, 17:58

Another American leader that should be added more so than Schwarzkopf is Ethan Allen IMO.

Also, there was an ancient German leader who defeated three Roman legions at Teutobergwald, who sshould be a german leader IMO. I think his name was Arminius, but I'm not sure. I'll try to look it up.

GoodFella · August 14, 2002, 03:48

I just threw in Schwarzkopf to suggest a modern leader, although I wouldn't call him onne of our greatest either.

Ribannah · August 14, 2002, 04:46

Bah. Nobody remembers him as 'great', definitely shouldn't be on that list. Take Martin Luther King instead (not every single one needs to be a warrrior, there are other types of leaders).

Wernazuma III · August 14, 2002, 12:58

GoodFella: Yes, it is Arminius but we decided not to include German leaders prior to the split of the Frankish Empire, so...
Ribannah: Although MLK is an admirable person, he was never an american leader, he led a movement within America.

Ribannah · August 14, 2002, 13:54

The same goes for quite a few people on the GL lists, and even for some tribe heads like Jeanne d'Arc.