Expansion Pack: Cities and leaders for existing civs part2: Germans

[Wernazuma III]

Well, Jeanne is a French national hero though, whereas MLK never wanted to lead America, he simply wanted to change some things there. He simply was no politician

[andy_of_denial]

I don't understand why Straßburg and Salzburg should be German towns in the game. Austria is not a civ in this game, but you definately should not downgrade them to "they're all German anyway", they don't like this at all And why Straßburg? It currently is in France's territory and not in Germany's. For some civs there might be problems who owns a city and should have it in the game (Babylon - Persia for example) because they are both dead. But with France and Germany you have two sovereign nations and all you have to find out their citynames is opening an atlas

"btw: the double-s (ß) has been removed in the newest german language reform"

This is not correct. The rules whether to use ss or ß have been modified, but the ß has not been removed from German language. Basically, the rule was simplified to "long vocal before = ß" "short vocal before = ss". In Straßburg's case, it would still be spelled with ß but as I said, in my opinion it doesn't matter anyway because it's a French town and should be either on France's list or be totally removed.

[Wernazuma III]

I'm Austrian myself...

And again, I don't think we should rely too much on modern borders. After all Civ3 covers the history of mankind. So I'd say Straßburg is a German town that flipped to France...

[Kalgacus]

Wernazuma III is right, cities like Vienna, Salzburg, Konigsberg, etc should be in the German list. After all, this is "Civilization" 3, not a game based on schoolroom wall maps. The word "German" does not only refer to people ONLY from the modern Bundesrepublik, it also refers to ALL German speaking people. That state has the name of "Germany" because it represents most Germans NOT because it represents all Germans. Germany is an 1000+-old civlization, not a decade-old state.

[Lord Merciless]

Austria may not be part of Germany, but it's part of the German culture. Civilization goes beyond a country's administrative border.

[Datajack Franit]

hmm..

Paris owned its name to Romans as well and was formerly called Lutetia Parisorium. But Lutetia itself was a fairly large Celtic settlement already, so you can say that Paris was founded by Celts.

Definitely. Paris was founded by the Parisii, a group of barbarian settlers. When the romans took the region they renamed it Lutetia, then it became Lutetia Parisii (or parisorium)

cologne wasn't from the germans? sure? (btw: german name: köln)

I agree with Lord Merciless. Cologne was a roman city called Colonia Agrippina, so were all the cities on the Rhine river. This includes the nowadays Cologne, Maingunz, Bonn, Baden-Baden, Cobleinz and Heidelberg.

About Stettin and Danzig... maybe you should cut them away because they were part of the nazi Germany. Instead use Breslau, which later became Wroclaw and given to Poland as war payment.

Btw there are so many german cities without using the austrian ones.

[Wernazuma III]

Breslau is in the list and Stettin and Danzig were no "Nazi-Germany" cities. They were German all the way until 1918.

[Datajack Franit]

My mistake

[Datajack Franit]

Hey how could you have missed Halle?

I just threw in Schwarzkopf to suggest a modern leader, although I wouldn't call him onne of our greatest either.

I thought Schwarzkopf was a german brand of shampoo?

[andy_of_denial]

Stettin was German until 1945, when the Oder-Neisse-border agreement gave it to Poland along with many other cities east of the river. My grandparents were born in Stettin and often moan that their house was just given away by our government, that's why I know

About the civs and their town names: I'm not sure but I don't feel like i'm playing the "German civilization" but GermanY, which is/was just one country. No problem if it were supposed be the civilization of German speakers or something but then I would expect to have more Austrian, Liechtensteinien, Luxembourgian townnames and leaders. This way it just seems wrong to me

You don't get that for many nations, either. I also see an overlap with the Russian nation, having many townnames of ex-ussr nations, which are now independant and don't belong to Russiaa (although they belonged to the Russian empire long before that).
Germany and Austria were only united once, and not even for 20 years, I don't think one could speak of the same culture here.

Don't America and Canada have the same "culture" too? I don't see a single Canadian city in America's list. And there are no Scottish or (Northern)Irish cities on England's list either (at least i recognised none) although they belong(ed) together in a state for some periods and their "cultures" don't seem too different either.

[sabrewolf]

in a lot of cases, we've got cities which belonged to the civ/country/empire in the days of the chosen ruler (maybe i'm mistaken):
some roman cities are the same as french cities (just different names). that's because once it belonged to the roman empire, later to the french.

i know, this rule doesn't count every time, because otherwise under liz I there should be a lot of cities from the commonwealth.

allthough as a 'zürcher' i quite like the idea of zürich (and other swiss/austrian cities) in the game, zürich did NOT belong to the german empire in bismarkian times... neither before.

and as for swiss being a german civilization: german-swiss (i'm excluding the latin languages) come from the aleman civ but permanently settled the present region as of 48 BC iirc... more than 1900 years later bismark came...
i don't know much about austrian history, but i now believe that CH-cities should not to be in the german civ.
if it's the language that counts, then we'd have to change very many other city-lists.

zürich, btw, got important as the roman city 'turicum', mainly because of the important north-south-route over the alps (gotthard is one of the four best alp-crossing-points).

[Datajack Franit]

BTW how do I put the city names in the game?

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
BTW how do I put the city names in the game?

use civ3edit.exe (the integrated editor), tab 'civilizations' and there you'll find to textfield, the left one for the city names and the right one for leader names.

[Datajack Franit]

thx

[Wernazuma III]

As has been stated here, we won't have ONE set of criteria for inclusion of cities for all civilizations.
However, as so many people seem to feel offended by the inclusion of Swiss and Austrian cities in the German list, I'll remove them, although especially in the case of Austria I still think that there's so major cultural border between Germany and Austria, even less than between Canada and the US. Austrian as identity in contrast to German exists since the end of WWII and not longer.

[Kalgacus]

Don't remove the Austrian cities, it was one of the merits of the list that you included them in the first place.
And you're right, the idea of Austria in contrast to Germany is a recent invention, in fact, an invention of the victorious allies after the war who were obsessed with keeping Germany weak. Hence why the govt of the newly formed Austrian state were overuled by the WW1 victors when they voted for union with Germany, hence why Anschluss was banned by Versailles and again after WW2 and hence the "first victim" nonsense the allies made up after ww2.

[Wernazuma III]

Well, the "first victim nonsense" was rather made up by ourselves, because we didn't want the world to blame us for the Nazi-terror as much as the Germans...

[Heresson]

Breslau is in the list and Stettin and Danzig were no "Nazi-Germany" cities. They were German all the way until 1918.

Yes, of course... That's why they were founded by Poles
and the root of their names is Polish...

I could even understand You saying that about Wroclaw (Breslau) and Szczecin (Stettin), as they were behind Polish borders for a couple of centuries,
(after feudal partage of Poland in Middle Ages,
and fell of the kingdom, western parts of it, Silesia and Pomerania, though under Polish dinasties (later germanised) did not respect the reconstruction of it
and stayed outside of Poland)
but Gda?sk (Danzig) belonged to Germans only in (practically, not legally) to Teutonic Knights in parts of XIV and XV century, and since the very end of XVIII century to the start of XX one (with some pauses) - for about 120 years. Is it "all the way until 1918"?

If I can teach You something, cities such as Berlin,
(Berlin) Rostock (Roztoka/Roztock), Leipzig (Lipsk)
Dresden (Drezno), Chemnitz (God knows what was its name), Shwerin (Skwierzyn), Lubeck (Lubica/Bukowiec
today Lubeka), Potsdam (Postupin, today Poczdam)
Zwickau probably too,
weren't founded by Germans either...

[Datajack Franit]

So Koeln/Cologne (Colonia Agrippina), Mainz (Mogontiacum) and many more were founded by the Romans, so?

[Heresson]

It's something different;
these cities were found by Romans on Germanic territory. Cities like Berlind were found by Slavs
when the entire territory around it was Slavic.
Anyway I don't mind cities like Brandenburg and Meklemburg for the Germans, but giving them Wroclaw,
Gdañsk and Szczecin is idiotic.
(as well as giving Kijow-Kiev or Lwow - Lvov -ukr. Lviv
I believe - to Russians).

[Datajack Franit]

So Wroclaw is wrong and Breslau is right?

[Heresson]

No; giving this city - under any name - to Germans is wrong.

[bobbo008]

Strassburg can't be German if it's French at the same time (damn French!). That's like having Konigsberg in Germany and Kaliningrad in Russia at the same time (damn Russians!). And how about Danzig (damn Poles!)?

[Wernazuma III]

I've lots of cities in more than one city list. Thus I try not to be too insulting to anyone.

[bobbo008]

"Strassburg can't be German if it's French at the same time"

to correct my own post, they can do that, appearantly. Byzantium is a city for Rome and Istanbul is a city for the Ottomans

[Mazarin]

..as well as Londinium/London

I don't think we should have a citiy for different civs...it just looks strange to me. Nevertheless I would include Straßburg in the German list just because it has been extremely important as a cultural centre of Germany (e.g. many of Goethe's books were influenced by his time in Straßburg)...I'd also leave the Austrian cities (don't forget the Habsburgs habe also been German Kaisers for a long time...and Austria did have a bigger influence on the other German states than Prussia for a long period). Swiss cities should be taken out of the German list, as they became independent very early.