AU: A MOD for the curiculum

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by player1

Just don't forget that Amp. ability. It actualy makes low defense unimportant.
Personnaly I think that 5/2/1/cost50 is not less powerfull unit at all. Although my main resoning was that Bezerk offense should not be the same as of Cavalry. Kills the flavor for me (but maybe not for you).

Unimportant only when attacking coastal targets, and the fact that the ships the Bezerks travel on can be sunk partially offsets the invulnerability to land attack while being transported. You're right that something feels off about Bezerks being as powerful on offense as cavalry; your values probably do make more sense, but I still prefer to stick with the stock version.

In regard to battleships, in the stock game (at least according to the PtW Civilopedia), the ROF is 2. But bombers have a ROF of 3 and only cost 100 shields. Also note that the ROF is irrelevant when attacking directly, so if you increase the ROF and then charge more as a result, you charge players for an ability they may or may not use depending on what role their battleships play.

Nathan

[alexman]

I need some feedback about an idea.

The AI places a huge importance on technologies that give units that don't require resources. This means that all civs research Bronze Working first (to get Spearmen), and then Warrior Code (to get Archers).

The problem with this approach is that all civs research the same things, and don't take advantage of their unique starting techs to research something more valuable.

For example, if Commercial civs (Alphabet) researched Writing instead, they would be in a very good position to either a) get lots of goodies from trading a technology that nobody else has or 2) get a head-start towards Literature and Republic.

Similarly, Religious civs would benefit by researching Mysticism first, and then b-lining towards Monarchy.

I have a solution that works well but is a bit drastic, so I need some feedback. The idea is to give Spearmen and Archers no technology requirement. Bronze working would still allow the Collossus, and we could have Warrior Code allow Barracks. I think it would be best to leave UUs like Hoplites, Impi, and Bab. Bowmen still to require their current technologies. That way UUs, in addition to starting techs, would influence research path.

The downside of this change is obviously the fact that it is a big change. But will it really change gameplay that much? For sure not much for the AI, because those are the two techs it researches first anyway. The human would be able to use Archers immediately, and that could be fun. Note that militaristic civs (except Japan) would still have the advantage for Archer rushes, because they would be able to build barracks immediately.

What do you all think?

[Dominae]

Re: Spearmen and Archers requiring no tech advance: too drastic. This is precisely the kind of change that is used solely to make the AI more optimal, that is, closer to what humans believe to be the best strategy. The net effect is arguably slightly better AI at the expense of variability in gameplay.

Other reasons why I don't think it's a good idea:

1. Warrior Code is now an empty tech.

2. The Colossus is never built right away, so saying that Bronze Working is still a useful tech isn't entirely true. By the time the Colossus is begun, at least half of the Ancient tech tree has been researched already.

3. The difference between Militaristic civs and others is that the Militaristic civs don't have to "waste time" researching Warrior Code in the first place (in order to get Archers). Thus, Militaristic civs can go "all out" aggression right away, while others must do so with a time investment.

4. Spearmen really are essential units, so I don't completely disagree with AI's tendency to research it first all the time. I'm sure there's some sort of randomization involved, and I believe that's enough (in this case). Archers are a different story. The "reason" why all AI research Warrior Code so early is that to be able to capitalize on early conquest, if the opportunity presents itself. Obviously the AI doesn't know when the opportunity presents itself, so it is coded for all eventualities, as it were. I don't think this is a flaw/mistake.


alexman, I honestly like where you're going to improve AI research, just not this particular solution. Keep the ideas coming!

By the way, are we going to include the relocation of special abilities (ROP, etc.) in the next version of the mod?


Dominae

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
1. Warrior Code is now an empty tech.

The ability to build barracks is quite important. Don't you think?

2. The Colossus is never built right away, so saying that Bronze Working is still a useful tech isn't entirely true.

Don't forget that you need Bronze Working to research the very important Iron Working tech. That makes Bronze Working still extremely useful.

3. The difference between Militaristic civs and others is that the Militaristic civs don't have to "waste time" researching Warrior Code in the first place (in order to get Archers). Thus, Militaristic civs can go "all out" aggression right away, while others must do so with a time investment.

You can't really go "all out" without barracks against spearmen! You'll get slaughtered!

I'm sure there's some sort of randomization involved.

I am now sure there is no random factor. It's the difference in expected turns to completion that makes one civ choose one tech and another choose a different one. But in the case of Bronze Working and Warrior Code, no difference in expected completion time can ever make the AI not research them #1 and #2 respectively.

In summary, I really believe that the change is not going to affect gameplay, or human strategy that much. The options are still there. It's just the reasons for pursuing them that are different (Barracks instead of Archers for WC, and Iron Working + Collossus is already enough for BW).

By the way, are we going to include the relocation of special abilities (ROP, etc.) in the next version of the mod?

I would like to move Alliances to Polytheism, at least in addition to having them in Writing. (We believe in the same Gods, so together let's kill all those who don't...). This would make Polytheism more attractive and thus Monarchy more common, especially for religious civs.

I would also like to move the Pyramids to Mathematics, so the latter is researched more often by the AI. Industrious civs would still be the only ones one tech away from that Wonder. Also, the idea is to make starting technologies less valuable to the AI in order to encourage researching deeper in the tech tree and get the first tier from trade.

Also, we should make taxmen require currency. This will make this technology more valuable to the AI (marketplaces!), but not by much.

Finally, we should increase the AI value of Literature (by a lot), Code of Laws, and Philosophy, so that the AI ends up getting the Republic, Libraries, and the GL sooner. We would do that by duplicating some of the special abilities of Writing in those techs (that have Writing as a prereq. anyway). Similarly, I think we should increase the AI value of Printing Press and Radio a little, so the human can't as often take advantage of researching them with one scientist and selling it for a fortune. In the Industrial age, we need to increase the AI value of Electricity and Atomic Theory, so the AI doesn't get beat to the classic turning points of ToE and Hoover as often.

These changes, combined with the original two I proposed, make for very reasonable AI research choices, believe me!

[ducki]

I like the Pyramids to Math move, if only conceptually/logically for now, but...

Isn't Math a 2-prereq tech? I thought it required... uhh... hell.... Alphabet! And uhh... grr... what's the Industrious one? Masonry?

Anyway, if I'm misremembering, ignore me, but I was positive Math had 2 prereqs, making it 2 techs away from any industrious Civ.

I don't understand Alliances to Polytheism, though. I take it we decided the Gardens were not to be moved from Monarchy?

[alexman]

Yes, you're right. Math requires Alphabet too. Oh well...


We could definitely move the hanging gardens instead of the Alliances, although the effect isn't as great and we would also have to do something else like reducing the cost of Polytheism. And I still say it would also make Monarchy very close to useless for human non-religious players.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
The ability to build barracks is quite important. Don't you think?

Heh, you got me on that one! Then again, I don't normally consider building Barracks early on unless I'm Militaristic.

Originally posted by alexman
Don't forget that you need Bronze Working to research the very important Iron Working tech. That makes Bronze Working still extremely useful.

Agreed. I was actually wondering why you didn't mention this in your original post!

Originally posted by alexman
You can't really go "all out" without barracks against spearmen! You'll get slaughtered!

Yes, "all out" is too strong a term. I'm referring to simple Archer rush, which isn't all out, but comes close to qualifying considering the resources you have in the early-game. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, but I don't build Barracks before Archers in an Archer rush. In any case, your example solidifies my point that giving everyone Spearmen right away will reduce some strategies, namely really early Archer rushes. Giving Archers to everyone doesn't solve this problem.

Originally posted by alexman
I am now sure there is no random factor. It's the difference in expected turns to completion that makes one civ choose one tech and another choose a different one. But in the case of Bronze Working and Warrior Code, no difference in expected completion time can ever make the AI not research them #1 and #2 respectively.

Wow. I'd really like to get confirmation from Soren on this one (although I do trust your judgement). This means that we can play with the AI research strategies quite drastically.

Originally posted by alexman
In summary, I really believe that the change is not going to affect gameplay, or human strategy that much. The options are still there. It's just the reasons for pursuing them that are different (Barracks instead of Archers for WC, and Iron Working + Collossus is already enough for BW).

You're also probably never going to see an AI Warrior (if I understand the build algorithms correctly). Am I the only one that thinks Barracks aren't that important in the very very early game when you're conducting your first little military excursion? I mean 5-10 units max, a combination of Warriors and Archers.

Another point that I have against your proposed change is that it is likely to spill over to all the other techs that we think the AI doesn't research correctly. Nationalism is preferred, make Riflemen available for free in Industrial age (not possible, but you know what I mean), etc. I've also showed (maybe not convincingly) that the AI's preference for Bronze Working and Warrior Code makes sense: those that have it already gain a very early advantage, those that don't need to catch up (militarily), but have other, non-military advantages to offset this with (like Granaries, etc.).

Originally posted by alexman
I would like to move Alliances to Polytheism, at least in addition to having them in Writing. (We believe in the same Gods, so together let's kill all those who don't...). This would make Polytheism more attractive and thus Monarchy more common, especially for religious civs.

What about Philosophy? I still think Hanging Gardens at Polytheism makes sense, and doesn't render Monarchy useless for non-Religious civs. I do like your "realism" rationale, though.

Originally posted by alexman
I would also like to move the Pyramids to Mathematics, so the latter is researched more often by the AI. Industrious civs would still be the only ones one tech away from that Wonder. Also, the idea is to make starting technologies less valuable to the AI in order to encourage researching deeper in the tech tree and get the first tier from trade.

Very nice. As you said, it would make Mathematics a more useful tech, and it would also mean that the option to build the Pyramids wouldn't be available without some work (Masonry is just too easy to get). Very nice.

Originally posted by alexman
Also, we should make taxmen require currency. This will make this technology more valuable to the AI (marketplaces!), but not by much.

Sure.

Originally posted by alexman
Finally, we should increase the AI value of Literature (by a lot), Code of Laws, and Philosophy, so that the AI ends up getting the Republic, Libraries, and the GL sooner. We would do that by duplicating some of the special abilities of Writing in those techs (that have Writing as a prereq. anyway).

These changes, combined with the original two I proposed, make for very reasonable AI research choices, given their starting techs, believe me!

If it has the effect that you say it does, then I'm all for it. I'll just have to deal with "gaining" abilities I know already with each new advance!


Dominae

[alexman]

Dominae, thanks for your input.

This has to be quick because my boss will kill me!

In case you've missed it, here is Sir Ralph's definitive guide to the Archer Rush.

Also, there is no way for the human player to know about the extra abilities that we give techs that come after Writing. They don't even show in the civilopedia. This is purely an AI-value increasing trick.

(By the way, Pyramids require Masonry in the stock version, not Pottery)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Dominae, thanks for your input.

No problem. I just want to make it clear that I'm not putting down your efforts toward a better mod in any way. Excellent work.

Originally posted by alexman
In case you've missed it, here is Sir Ralph's definitive guide to the Archer Rush

Yup, I read it. A great guide, but I pick and choose the bits that I incorporate into my games. If I build Barracks, I'll probably be building up a large force of Horsemen or Swordsmen (perhaps via upgrades), not Archers.

Originally posted by alexman
Also, there is no way for the human player to know about the extra abilities that we give techs that come after Writing. They don't even show in the civilopedia. This is purely an AI-value increasing trick.

Oh, ok, I thought it would appear in the Civilopedia description.

Originally posted by alexman
(By the way, Pyramids require Masonry in the stock version, not Pottery)

Yeah, I know. I have a funny habit of posting then proof-reading, rather than using the Preview Reply button. You got me before I caught that mistake.

I would like to get other people's input concerning Monarchy (because I think we've both made our points and still haven't reached an agreement). Is Monarchy (the advance) not a viable option if it doesn't come with Hanging Gardens? More specifically, do non-Religious civs have any reason to switch to Monarchy before settling into The Republic (or Democracy)?


Dominae

[ducki]

On the barracks issue, once I've got my 3 or 4 warriors cranked out at the beginning, I will forgo any and all military buildup until I have barracks.

I'll even build a barracks in my main settler city in between workers/settlers, so I can use it to build up military in between later settlers.

I think the importance of barracks is highly subjective, so for some, giving it a required tech would be a big change. For other, it wouldn't.

I do know that the AI tends to send out lots and lots of Regulars, so I don't know that it would affect them on the military front all that much.

Me, I don't like fighting with Regulars if I can avoid it, captured border towns notwithstanding - sometimes you just have to rush that Regular Defender.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
I would like to get other people's input concerning Monarchy (because I think we've both made our points and still haven't reached an agreement). Is Monarchy (the advance) not a viable option if it doesn't come with Hanging Gardens? More specifically, do non-Religious civs have any reason to switch to Monarchy before settling into The Republic (or Democracy)?

If Monarchy didn't have the Gardens, I would almost never research it. Almost never. Even with a religious Civ. Then again, I'm not that experienced of a warmonger, so take that with a grain of salt. I prefer Luxuries+Republic->Democracy to FreeUnits+MilitaryPolice+Monarchy for warring.

[Dominae]

In my experience, a protracted war isn't always possible in Republic, even with 2-3 luxuries. If you're playing a very aggressive game (Zulus, Vikings, but any other civ will do), you just don't ever want to be outside of war. In those cases, researching Monarchy and staying there until much later has worked for me. Depending on how powerful the AI is relative to you, jumping into The Republic won't get you back into the game if you're behind. You have to go to war to catch up. Enter Monarchy.

Strangely enough, Monarchy and The Republic are the two techs that I find myself researching the most in the Ancient era (although never both). I suspect this is because the AI prioritizes required techs (any info on that alexman?). Thus, I seem to be researching Monarchy for its government and sale value, not the Hanging Gardens.


Dominae

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
I suspect this is because the AI prioritizes required techs (any info on that alexman?).

Optional techs have their AI value reduced by 2/3.

From what I have seen, it's true that the AI doesn't place a high enough value on the Republic (because it doesn't also have a Wonder, like Monarchy does, hint, hint ). That's why I suggest adding one of the Writing attributes to the Republic.

As for Monarchy, the AI gets delayed because Polytheism has a very low priority, and is often the last required tech of the ancient era to get researched. Once in the Middle ages, Feudalism has a much greater importance to the AI than Monarchy.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
In my experience, a protracted war isn't always possible in Republic, even with 2-3 luxuries.

I was thinking more like 4-5 with marketplaces, but I get your point.

If you're playing a very aggressive game (Zulus, Vikings, but any other civ will do), you just don't ever want to be outside of war.

Like I said, almost never. I'm still new to warmongering, so "playing a very aggressive game" would fall under almost never. Almost.

In those cases, researching Monarchy and staying there until much later has worked for me.

I agree. Monarchy->Democracy is very powerful if you plan on lots and lots of war and don't have the luxuries and production for Republic to be workable.

Depending on how powerful the AI is relative to you, jumping into The Republic won't get you back into the game if you're behind. You have to go to war to catch up. Enter Monarchy.

Still, if I've got 4-5 luxuries, or can get them in a relatively short war, I still prefer Republic, but have tried out the Monarchy route.

Strangely enough, Monarchy and The Republic are the two techs that I find myself researching the most in the Ancient era (although never both). I suspect this is because the AI prioritizes required techs (any info on that alexman?). Thus, I seem to be researching Monarchy for its government and sale value, not the Hanging Gardens.

Interesting, I may have to try that.
I usually start out on The Wheel then head for Literature unless I'm Commercial, in which case I skip The Wheel.

Once I hit Literature - actually, once I hit Writing - I've got a pretty good idea whether I'm going to need the Library. If not, I'll head for whichever techs the AI is not going for, determined mostly by seeing what they have for trading.

I'll have to try beelining for Republic some time. I've beelined for Monarchy a lot, but most often so I can build the Gardens, not to switch governments.

I predict that moving the Gardens to Polytheism will have the AI consistently beating me to the Gardens, which is a "good thing" for AI strength, though not so good for my own citizen happiness.



This sort of discussion is what, I think, makes Civ such a great game. There are so many different ways you can play that changing stuff like Gardens->Polytheism might or might not affect all of us. And the fact that the decisions I make are somewhat influenced by things I read here, there is, by no means, a single "formula" for play, which would be boring.

[Dominae]

alexman, if I understand your work on AI research priorities, Monarchy and The Republic should always be researched before Feudalism, because they allow new governments. Feudalism grants a Wonder and a resource-required defender, which I don't believe add up to surpasss the value for new governments (I don't remember the precise values).

Edit:

Feudalism: Pikemen 70, Med. Infantry 6, Sun Tzu's 6 = 82
Monarchy: Monarchy 256 / 1.5 optional (excluding Hanging Gardens) = 170 (approximately)


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
This sort of discussion is what, I think, makes Civ such a great game. There are so many different ways you can play that changing stuff like Gardens->Polytheism might or might not affect all of us. And the fact that the decisions I make are somewhat influenced by things I read here, there is, by no means, a single "formula" for play, which would be boring.

Agreed. I also think this is an argument that Monarchy for Monarchy's sake is far from useless (maybe sub-optimal, but I've yet to be convinced of this).


Dominae

[alexman]

Example time!
Lets say you can complete Republic in 14 tuns.
That means you would complete Feudalism in 16 turns.

Republic:
Tech cost = 256/14
Government = 259/14
Optional = divide total by 1.5
Total Value = (256+259)/(1.5*14) = 24.5

Feudalism:
Tech cost = 256/16
Pikeman = 70
Med. Infantry = 6
Wonder = 6
Total Value = 256/16 + 70 + 6 + 6 = 98

[Edit: I just saw your edit. You forgot to divide by the turns]

[Dominae]

Good example (I didn't understand your original post, it seems); you may want to include it in your original post in the other thread.

Couldn't we just raise the value of new governments? This would have the unfortunate consequence of making Communism even more attractive, but would solve the problems with the other governments (The Republic and Democracy specifically, although the AI would still need a reason to go through Printing Press).


Dominae

[ducki]

I've always thought Printing Press needed a building or small wonder call "Media Outlet" or somesuch. Maybe have it decrease unhappies or increase taxes or something.

That probably gets us too far away from the AU goals, though.

[nbarclay]

It's almost unheard of for me to run into a situation where I can't do the fighting I truly need to without resorting to Monarchy. There was one game on a large map where Japan was bigger than me and had enough of a cultural advantage that I felt like I needed to swallow its mainland in one bite, and that forced me into Monarchy well before the war was over. (Fortunately, I was religious in that game.) But especially on standard maps, if my original government target is Republic, I don't really care about Monarchy.

Nathan

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by alexman

From what I have seen, it's true that the AI doesn't place a high enough value on the Republic (because it doesn't also have a Wonder, like Monarchy does, hint, hint ).

Or you could create a whole new wonder (i.e. The Republic Monument...) costing 1 shield and generating almost nothing, maybe 1 culture/turn or even nothing (will the AI build it even if it does not have any effect?) . This would make Republic more attractive to the AI and would not change gameplay that much...

--Kon--

[alexman]

No need for that. Diplomats are worth more than two Wonders and are completely hidden to the player after Writing.

[Konquest02]

Ok... I get it...

[alexman]

Here's my proposal for the PTW version of the AU mod.
Please comment!

==========================================
        APOLYTON UNIVERSITY MOD 1.10
==========================================
(based on player 1's Patch Suggestion Mod)

This MOD serves as a base for the Apolyton University curriculum, which aims to improve the 
skills of participants through discussion of their strategy in a series of common games.

The goals of this MOD (in rough order of importance) are to:
- Improve the AI.
- Present the player with more strategic decisions.
- Change as little as possible, to preserve the unmodded Civ3 flavor.
- Preserve historical accuracy.
- Reduce micromanagement. 

GROUND UNITS
------------

Action:  Added Wheeled ability to Tank, Panzer, Mech. Infantry, Modern Armor, Artillery, 
         Radar Artillery.
Reason:  To give Paratroopers, Marines, and air and naval bombard support more improtance.
Comment: Also increases realism. You can still move these units on enemy roads.

Action:  Increased the movement of Musketeer to 2 and lowered its attack to 2 from 3. 
         Removed AI offense flag.
Reason:  To make the AI use musketeers properly.
Comment: Still remains in the spirit of the original unit. A defensive unit that can be used
         in an offensive role - supporting knights.

Action:  Increased attack strength of riflemen from 4 to 5 and reduced their cost from 80 to 70
Reason:  Make these units more cost-effective and better-used by the AI.
Comment: The AI sometimes uses these units for attack, so an increase in their strength helps it.

Action:  Increased attack strength of infantry from 6 to 8
Reason:  Make these units better-used by the AI.
Comment: The AI often uses these units for attack, so an increase in their strength helps it.

Action:  Increased attack strength of marines from 8 to 10, and defense from 6 to 8.
Reason:  Make this unit more valuable, and Amphibious War worth researching.
Comment: This might help the AI build these units more. They are more useful now that tanks 
         can't pass through jungles and mountains. This unit is as expensive as a tank, yet its
         stats are still much lower. 

Action:  Increased attack strength of paratroopers from 6 to 8, and defense from 8 to 10.
Reason:  Make this unit more valuable, and Advanced Flight worth researching.
Comment: To be consistent with the increase in infantry attack. This unit has the AI offense flag,
         so it better do some damage when attacking. Provides a good mountain defender for 
         when Infantry upgrades to (wheeled) Mech Infantry.

Action:  Added zero-range bombard ability to Archers (2), Bowmen (2), and Longbowmen (4).
Reason:  To make Archers and Longbowmen worth building, even after Swordsmen and Musketmen, 
         respectively. 
Comment: Combined Arms! Stacks of units with archers have some benefit. 
         The AI often puts an archer in its cities for couterattack anyway.

Action:  Added airlift flag to Catapult, Cannon, Artillery, Radar Artillery, Explorer, Scout, 
         Leader.
Reason:  To reduce micromanagement. 
Comment: You can airlift tanks, why not atillery? Leaders can fly by plane.

Action:  Increased movement of Radar Artilery by 1. Now requires oil and rubber in addition 
         to aluminum.
Reason:  To keep up with mobile modern units, which was the major drawback of this unit.
Comment: Artillery should at least keep up with Mech. Infantry. 
         It's still slower than Modern Armor.

Action:  Reduced defense of Modern Armor from 16 to 14.
Reason:  To encourage combined arms.
Comment: The AI protects its offense-flagged units with defensive units anyway. MA was too good
         for its cost (and still is).

Action:  Increased cost of Cannon and Hwach'a to 60 from 40 and doubled their ROF.
Reason:  To balance this unit compared to other ground bombard units.
Comment: Under the standard rules, catapults are always more cost-effective bombard units than cannons. 
         With this change, cannons are more cost-effective when bombarding a defender of strength 8 and 
         above. And even with this change, artilery is more cost-effective than cannon for a defender 
         above strength 8. The increased cost and ROF means that you need less units to do the same
         amount of damage, hence less micromanagement.

Action:  Catapult now upgrades to Hwach'a for Koreans.
Reason:  There is no reason to penalize this unit.
Comment: This was probably a bug in the stock version anyway.

Action:  Keshik gains ability to ignore movement penalties on Hills. 
         Elephants gain ability to ignore movement penalties in Jungles.
Reason:  To strengthen these rather weak unique units.
Comment: How can a Keshik take more time to move across mountains than across hills?
         Elephants are have familiarity with jungles, and endurance in those climates.

Action:  Reduced cost of Conquistador to 60 from 70
Reason:  To strengthen this unique unit without making knights obsolete.
Comment: They replace 20-cost explorers, after all.

Action:  Increased attack of Guerilla to 7 from 6
Reason:  To keep in line with other changes of this mod.
Comment: Infantry has its attack strength increased by 2.

AIR UNITS
---------

Action:  Increased operational range of Bombers to 8 from 6
Reason:  To keep in line with other changes
Comment: Range kept the same as that of Paratroopers and Helicopters.
         Increased naval movement of this mod without this change would have made it easier for ships to 
         stay out of bomber range before coastal bombardment or invasions.

Action:  Increased ROF of Fighters and Jet Fighters to 2 from 1.
         Increased bombard strength of Jet Fighters to 3 from 2.
         Increased bombard strength of F-15 and Stealth Fighters to 6 from 4.
         Reduced cost of Stealth Bomber to 200 from 240.
         Gave all fighters lethal sea bombard (and the AI air bombard flag).
         In addition, F-15 and Stealth Fighter have lethal land bombard.
Reason:  To increase the importance of airpower and to balance fighters versus bombers.
Comment: Now carriers can use fighers to sink other ships, instead of always carrying bombers.
         St.Fighters are a viable alternative to St.Bombers. The F-15 is a good UU (for a plane).
         The following table shows the change in cost-effectiveness of each air unit in 
         bombarding.

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    1     8   0.17     16
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     2    1    10   0.17     13
         F-15        4    2    10   0.57     43 
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    3     6   1.85    231*

         ===AU MOD===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    2     8   0.33     31
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.46     35
         F-15        6    2    10   0.75     56*
         St. Ftr     6    2    12   0.75     47*
         St. Bbr     8    3    20   1.33     50
         Cruise     16    4     6   2.46    308*

         Tables assume a 10-strength defender
         Str = Bombard Strength
         ROF = Rate of fire
         Cost = shield cost / 10
         Dmg = expected damage in HP
         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of bomber.
         * = lethal land bombard

Action:  Increased bombard range of Cruise Missile to 4 from 2, and its ROF from 3 to 4.
Reason:  To make this unit more useful, since some air units now have lethal bombard.
Comment: The Civilopedia says Cruise Missiles have a range of hundreds of miles. 
         Higher ROF means it has an extra shot and a chance to kill healthy veteran units.

Action:  Increased Helicopter range to 8 from 6, and transport capacity to 2 from 1.
Reason:  To make this unit more useful.
Comment: The problem with helicopters was that it was difficult to land troops behind enemy lines.

Action:  Increased Paratrooper operational range to 8 from 6
Reason:  To make this unit more useful
Comment: For balance, the operational range of Helicopters and Paratroopers should be the same.

Action:  Add the "Load" flag to Cruise Missiles.
Reason:  To make the loading of this unit official and not an exploit.
Comment: Without this flag CMs can be loaded into transports directly, but not from cities.

NAVAL UNITS
-----------

Action:  Added one move to all ships except: Galley, Caravel, Galleon, Ironclad, Carrier
Reason:  To make Privateers and Frigates more powerful, without unbalancing later units.
Comment: Naval movement was too low compared to late-game land and air movement. 
         Player now has a strategic choice between Ironclad and Frigate, since the latter is slower.

Action:  Added two moves to Carrier
Reason:  To reduce micromanagement of carrier protection.
Comment: Battleships and Carriers do not have a big difference in speed in real life.

Action:  Reduced the cost of the Privateer to 40 from 60.
Reason:  To make this unit more useful
Comment: It was not a cost-effective unit. Privateers should be cheaper than the more powerful 
         Frigates.

Action:  Prerequisite of the Ironclad is now Industrialization instead of Steam Power.
         Increased cost to 90 from 80.
Reason:  To make Frigates more useful.
Comment: Frigates became obsolete too fast. England might have a half-decent UU now.
         Ironclads were actually more cost-effective for bombarding than battleships.

Action:  Ironclad upgrades to Battleship.
Reason:  To compensate for reducing the shelf-life of this unit by making it available later.
Comment: The civilopedia says that the ironclad was "the forerunner of the modern battleship".

Action:  Frigate and Privateer upgrade to Destroyer
Reason:  To encourage building these units
Comment: The upgrade cost is significant.

Action:  Increased attack factor of Submarines and Nuclear Subs to 10 from 8.
Reason:  To make these units (and hence AEGIS) more effective.
Comment: Makes these units more dangerous on attack, but still vulnerable if attacked.

Action:  Increased ROF of Battleships, and AEGIS by 1.
Reason:  To increase the significance of naval power.
Comment: Battleships are now as effective for bombardment as bombers.
         The following table shows the change in cost-effectiveness of each naval unit in 
         bombarding.

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Frigate     2    2     6   0.33    125
         Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    173
         Ironclad    4    2     8   0.57    161
         Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75    141 
         Battleship  8    2    20   0.89    100
         AEGIS       4    2    16   0.57     80

         ===AU MOD===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Frigate     2    2     6   0.33     83
         Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    115
         Ironclad    4    2     9   0.57     95
         Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75     94 
         Battleship  8    3    20   1.33    100
         AEGIS       4    3    16   0.86     80

         Tables assume a 10-strength defender
         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of battleship.


IMPROVEMENTS AND WONDERS
------------------------

Action:  Great Wall now also adds city walls to all towns in the same continent.
Reason:  To make this wonder worth building.
Comment: This will mainly affect the outskirts of your empire (just like the real Great
         Wall), since core cities will be larger than size-6 after Construction. 

Action:  Increased happy faces for Cure for Cancer to 3 from 1
Reason:  To make this wonder worth building.
Comment: In the late game, when most empires have access to 6-8 luxuries, 
         1000 shields for one happy face is just not worth it.

Action:  Longevity requires Sanitation instead of Genetics. Reduced cost to 800 from 1000.
Reason:  To make this wonder worth building.
Comment: By the time of Genetics, most cities are already maxed out population-wise.

Action:  Military Academy no longer requires a victorious Army.
Reason:  To make Armies more common, and war just for leaders less important.
Comment: The Heroic Epic still requires a victorious Army. 

Action:  SS Life Support needs Recycling instead of Superconductor
Reason:  To force players to research more modern techs before launching
Comment: The civilopedia entry mentions the importance of recycling for this component.

Action:  SS Stasis Chamber needs Genetics instead of Synthetic Fibers
Reason:  To force players to research more modern techs before launching
Comment: Cryogenics need a deep understanding of biology, including Genetics.

Action:  SS Docking Bay requires Robotics instead of Space Flight
Reason:  To force players to research more modern techs before launching
Comment: Just say you need robotic arms to load things in the docking bay.
         Only the purely military techs now aren't required for a space victory.

Action:  Increased the cost of all SS components by 50%
Reason:  To make Manufacturing Plants a viable option.
Comment: The AI still places a high priority on building spaceship parts.

Action:  Increased the upkeep of Banks from 1 to 2
Reason:  To make building this improvement less of an obvious choice.
Comment: The AI benefits from this change as it generally builds banks later than the human.

Action:  Increased the upkeep of Research Labs to 3 from 2.
         Increased cost of Research Labs to 240 from 200.
Reason:  To make building this improvement less of an obvious choice.
Comment: The AI benefits from this change as it generally builds labs later than the human.

Action:  Prerequisite of the Pyramids is Mathematics instead of Masonry
Reason:  To increase the value of Mathematics.
Comment: The AI now researches this tech more often, so the human cannot bank on getting it
         with minimum research.

GOVERNMENTS
--------------

Actions: Increased corruption for Republic from 'Nuisance' to 'Problematic'
         Added 3 free unit support to Monarchy.
         Increased worker speed to 3 from 2 for Communism.
         Doubled free unit support per town/city/metro and added 10 free units for Communism.
         Added 1 free unit per city and two free units per metropolis for Democracy.
Reason:  To reduce the relative effectiveness of Republic 
         and the relative weakness of Communism
Comment: Non-religious civs rarely had a reason to be in any other form of 
         government than Republic. Communism was never worth it, even for
         religious civs.

GLOBAL CHANGES
--------------

Action:  Doubled value of Wealth
Reason:  To make this build option sometimes worth choosing.
Comment: It's still better to build units and disbanding them in corrupt cities (instead of
         using Wealth and rush-buying), but at least now Wealth is more useful than it
         used to be.

Action:  Doubled effect of taxmen and scientists.
Reason:  To encourage 20+ size cities.
Comment: This might benefit the human more than the AI for cities under max-size, and
         it adds some micromanagement. On the hand, having a few large cities rather than
         many small ones reduces micromanagement, and presents the player with another 
         decision.

Action:  Doubled effect of entertainers
Reason:  To help the AI
Comment: The AI uses entertainers instead of the luxury slider. 

Action:  Reduced cost of propaganda by 50%
Reason:  To make this option worth pursuing.
Comment: Playtesting by player 1 has indicated that this reduction in cost is not too much.

Action:  Taxmen require currency
Reason:  To make the AI emphasize this technology.
Comment: Marketplaces are an important improvement, and currency is often neglected by the AI.

Action:  Added "Enables Military Alliances" ability to Polytheism
Reason:  To help Religious AI civs B-line for Monarchy.
Comment: Why Alliances for Polytheism? "We believe in the same Gods, so together let's kill 
         all those who don't...". Writing still also allows Alliances.

continued in next post...

[alexman]

CHANGES TO AI
------------------------------

Action:  Increased optimal number of cities for the AI by 50%
Reason:  To compensate for poor AI Forbidden Palace placement.
Comment: Chieftain level is now identical to Regent, except that it has 150% the OCN.
         AI plays at this level, which is no longer meant to be played by the human.

Action:  Added "Enables Diplomats" ability to Code of Laws, Literature, Republic, Electricity, 
           Atomic Theory, Radio, Nuclear Power
         Added "Enables Right of Passage Treaties" ability to Literature
         Added "Enables Communication Trading" ability to Literature and Printing Press
Reason:  To make the AI emphasize these technologies more.
Comment: These abilities make no difference in gameplay, since they are already given by Writing
         (which is a prerequisite of all of them).

Action:  Removed the AI defense flag from Babylonian Bowmen
Reason:  To help the AI use this unit properly.
Comment: If the AI upgrades its defending Bowman to a Longbowman, it ends up with a lower 
         defensive value, and is vulnerable until it can build a new defender.

Action:  Removed the AI offense flag from Mech. Infantry.
Reason:  To prevent the AI from attacking with these units.
Comment: Infantry built for attack (because the AI didn't have the resources to build cavalry 
         or tanks), is now converted to a defensive role and will never attack. This makes the
         AI have to build new offensive units, which helps because Tanks are always available when 
         Mech Infantry is available.

Action:  Removed AI explore flag from Keshik and added it to Conquistador
Reason:  The Conquistador is the Explorer UU replacement, not the Keshik.
Comment: This was probably a bug in the stock version anyway.

Action:  Added "Emphasize Production" to advisor settings for all AI civilizations.
Reason:  To bring AI irrigation, mining, and worked tiles closer to what expert human 
         players have found optimal.
Comment: The AI used to irrigate too much and had to compensate by assigning many entertainers.
         The result was often large but unproductive cities.

Action:  Changed AI build-often list as shown below
Reason:  To bring AI build order closer to what expert human players have found optimal
Comment: Added production to all civs to encourage factories. Added trade to all civs to
         encourage harbors and marketplaces. Removed growth from all civs because the AI
         already emphasizes growth too much. Removed Culture from many civs because the
         AI already emphasizes culture over production and trade. Encouraging AI to take 
         advantage of their traits: Scientific have Science flagged, Religious have 
         happiness, Militaristic have units.

         Civilization  Off Def Arty Setl Work Nav Air Grth Prod Hap Sci Wlth Trad Expl Cult
         ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Rome (4)       X   X                          -    X                 +
         Egypt (3)                                     -    X    +            +         -
         Greece (3)                            X            +        X        X         -
         Babylon (4-3)                                      +        -        +         X
         Germany (5)    X                                   +        X        +         -
         Russia (4)                                X   -    +        X        +
         China (2)                                     -    X        -        +
         America (3)                               X   -    X                 +         -
         Japan (4)      X                      X            +    X            +
         France (1)                                         +    -            X         -
         India (1)                                     -    +    +       X    X         -
         Persia (4)     X                                   +        +   -    X
         Aztecs (4)     X                                   +    X            +
         Zulu (5)       X                                   +                 +
         Iroquois (2-3) +                              -    +    X            +    -
         England (3)                           X            +            X    X         -
         Mongols (5)    X                                   X                 +
         Spain (3)                             X            +    +       Q    X    -
         Scandinav (4)  X                      X            +                 +
         Ottomans (3)          X                            +    -   +        +
         Celts (4)      X                                   +    +            X         -
         Arabia (4)                                    -    +    +            +         -
         Carthage (2)                          X            +                 X
         Korea (2)             +                            +        +   -    X

         X = build often
         - = removed
         + = added
         Q = removed build never
         The number in brackets after the civilization name is its aggression level.

[alexman]

Summary of important changes since AU mod 1.06:

• Musketmen cost 60 shields again. (Back to original) As I said in player 1's thread, the reduced cost shortened the lifespan of knights, and now with PTW there are even more civs with knight-level UUs. It made it too tempting to skip Chivalry and go directly for Cavalry. With the original cost, only rich civs can afford to instantly upgrade their pikemen when they get Gunpowder. This was also the case in real life, by the way: Pikemen did not immediately disappear with gunpowder.
  
• Increased the AI-value of neglected technologies. Code of Laws, Literature, Republic, Polytheism, Mathematics, Currency, Printing Press, Electricity, Atomic Theory, Radio, Nuclear Power. The only changes the human player will see are 1) Polytheism allows Alliances, 2) Pyramids require Mathematics, 3) Taxmen require Currency.
  
• Increased the optimal number of cities for the AI. 50% for now, to compensate for poor FP placement.
  
• Tweaked build-often preferences. Culture and Growth do not need to be emphasized, as they are already. Trade is important for everyone (harbors and marketplaces).
  
• Adopted several changes from player 1's mod. Increased bomber range, increased cannon cost and ROF, no AI defense for Bab. Bowmen.
  
• Adopted several PTW UU changes from player 1's mod. Hwach'a, Keshik, Elephant, Conquistador, Guerilla, all had their stats tweaked. However, left Berserk and cost of Guerilla as in the stock version.
  
• Doubled value of entertainers. I know this is controversial, but let's at least try it in a couple of games. It seems to help the AI a lot.
  
  

[player1]

Originally posted by nbarclay
You're right that something feels off about Bezerks being as powerful on offense as cavalry; your values probably do make more sense, but I still prefer to stick with the stock version.

Good reasoning.
I prefer also to keep old values as much as possibile when making my MOD, but in this case I chosed otherwise (personal taste). It probably has also something to do with PS MOD upgarde path form Med. Inf. to Riflemen (not Guerilla). Which would theoreticly make Vikings get worse unit after getting Nationalism (so my vlaues partialy fix that).

In regard to battleships, in the stock game (at least according to the PtW Civilopedia), the ROF is 2. But bombers have a ROF of 3 and only cost 100 shields. Also note that the ROF is irrelevant when attacking directly, so if you increase the ROF and then charge more as a result, you charge players for an ability they may or may not use depending on what role their battleships play.

Nathan

In both PS & AU mods it's ROF of 3. And that's pretty powerfull if used against another ships. Also good againts land too. Remeber that naval AU game, and that picture with lots of Battleships and completly "pillaged" cost by naval bombing. That done with AU's ROF 3 Battehips. Also Battelship is much more then "bomber". It's both combat and attack ship. My testing showed that ROF 3 skews Destroyer vs Batteship balance enough to give them a little bit higher cost.

By the way I upped AEGIS Cruiser's defense to 12 (which gives stats of 12/12/cost 160). That would make them better in escort & anti-air missions.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by alexman
I would like to move Alliances to Polytheism, at least in addition to having them in Writing.

I can't use alliances without embassies.
It could be used just to increase the AI value or you could give it embassies as well. Either way, your realism justification is out.

Originally posted by alexman
Action: Removed the AI defense flag from Babylonian Bowmen
Reason: To help the AI use this unit properly.

Unlike Player1's, AU Bowmen have zero range bombard.
This can make a large difference for stacked defenders being attacked by horsemen.
If a war triggers the babylonian GA, it is an advantage to have this as early as possible so defending bowmen are good.

You could have bowmen upgrade to pikemen instead.
This would work like the infantry upgrade. It's probably more reasonable than JW -> horsemen.

I've recently learnt not to attack babylon early on.

[Dominae]

1. Polytheism allows Alliances

Why not remove this ability from Writing then? If we're not going to move Hanging Gardens back one tech, we might as well flesh out the tech tree by making Polytheism useful for the human player too (not just apparently useful to the AI).

2. Taxmen require Currency.

Why not make Scientists require Literature? This is what I've got in my mod (seems to make sense, and works well too now that they're effect is doubled), and it would help the AI to research Literature, as needed.

3. Increased the optimal number of cities for the AI. 50% for now, to compensate for poor FP placement.

This may create a pretty powerful AI. However, since it doesn't affect gameplay (other than difficulty) in any way, I'm all up for trying it (and perhaps moving down to Monarch in the process!).

4. Guerillas power up to 7 from 6.

Why not just increase it to 8? Infantry and Guerillas are meant to be equally powerful in the standard game, so might as well make it so with this mod too. Simply a matter of aesthetics, since +1-power is no big deal at that stage of the game.

5. Doubled value of entertainers.

We'll see how this goes. It will be my goal to break this change in the next AU scenario! If I can't (and no one else does), I admit it's a good change to the AI.


Looks like everything is in order. I'm still wondering why Monarchy is so useless without Hanging Gardens, however. It sounds like people are saying that Monarchy (the government) is useless itself...maybe we should improve it? And if it is so useless, I doubt anyone researches Monarchy (the advance) just for the HG. I'm confused.


Dominae

[alexman]

Originally posted by Nor Me

I can't use alliances without embassies.

Well, almost. Other civs can establish embassies with you and you can use them. But if it's rare, that's actually what I wanted to achieve in the first place. Influence the AI without changing gameplay. As for the realism justification, there are worse ones already in the game (how do you know the alphabet without knowing how to write?)

Dominae, Monarchy is not useless. It's just not worth the Anarchy, most of the time. It's often used as a war-time government to replace Democracy due to WW, but by that time you don't need to research the tech.

I will move Scientists to Literature. That's a good idea.

I will also look into another way to boost Writing, which will lose AI value if we remove Alliances.