P4 policial thread

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 07:25

Our party stands for economic and technological progress. Thus our keywords are Discover and Build. The way to reach these goals are equal chances and free education among other things.
Therefore our early game SE settings are:
Democracy/Planned/Wealth
Later we will switch to:
Democracy/FM/Knowledge
Future might vary between FM/Cybernetic and Green/Eudaimonic.
I want to stress that we are firmly against Fundamentalism, Power and Thought Control, as we believe in free thought and creativity.
On atrocities we support upholding the UN Charter. We do want to build one punishment sphere as a prison base. This will also serve as an energy park and the main base for our air fleet.
P4 is for the use of probes for defensive and inflitration purposes. But we're against any use of them for another mission, like framing or tech stealing, in peacetime. But during wartime, we think they can be used for all the missions we want, excepted atrocities.
We also give a high priority to the HSA as we would no longer need to build defensive probes and as it would make the -2 Probe for going Knowledge unimportant.
Besides infiltration and defence we will also use probes for exploring and pod popping. That way we can still expand our knowledge of the outer world without creating pacifism drones under Free Market.
[written by M@ni@c foundig member of P4]

members
M@ni@c - [founding member]
DeathByTheSword -
TKG - [director of Science]
Juliennew -
Archaic -
Tactical Marine -
The Bloody Baro -
Zakharov VII -
Thud -

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 09:12

Obviously!

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 09:16

Since this is our party thread, perhaps you should respond here on my post in the other thread. Do you agree with my position about Planned<->FM? As Eudaimonists, we want all people to reach their full potential, through providing free education (Knowledge Value) among other things. I think, from mid-game on, this is better done in a FM than in a Planned economy.

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 09:20

yes but we such abandon FM during longwartime we can use the police then....

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 09:29

Ok. So if I understand you normally Demo FM, but in long wars PS or Planned may be an option?

I hope of course we will try to avoid wars.

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 09:38

yes ofcourse we try to avoid wars but if we play tracend there will be wars... but what you said is right Demo FM and in long wars (what isnt a good options -no faction benifits by prolonged war- so say Sun ztu in his book the art of war) we could change for getting more units.....if it is needed.....what do you think of covert-ops, nervegas, nervestaple, and the building and use of planetbuster. (atrocities in general?)

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 10:21

In my own games I tend to make not much use of covert-ops except for infiltrating. I steal techs from factions I'm at war at, but that's it. Framing is too risky IMO. Nervegas I only use against aliens. Genetic Warfare never. Nervestaple I only used on one game. Planet Buster also never.

But as a P4 members I'd say we try to build a good economy, so getting economic sanctions because of use of nervegas, nervestapling or planet busters is out of the question.

But what if the UN Charter is abolished? In my own games then, I wouldn't have a problem with using atrocities à volonté. But as a party member I don't know really. The question is, will we profilate us as an ethical party and defend the rights of every individual, thus not allowing any atrocity? Or will we profilate us as a party which is interested in the economic and scientific progress of our faction as a whole, and not so much in every individual, thus allowing eg a punishment sphere?
I would prefer the latter, but that might clash with our idea of Eudaimonia, and we might lose potential members and votes.

Personally, I am in favour of the idea of Eudaimonia because every citizen fulfilling its potential and every citizen at the place it deserves is a more efficient society, thus promoting science and economy. I'm not really in to that idea because it is the "ethical" thing to do or so, as the CCCP thinks. Eudaimonia is just a method to reach the goal of Progress IMHO.

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 10:32

well i think that i depends on the situation....i am a strong believer in that we need planetbuster on a large scale but only use them if we are attacked by planetbuster them self and when the un charter is gone. and nervestapling is ok during sunblocks. i am against nervegas but instist on creating such units. genetic warfare i never use...i am flexible in the choises depending on the game.... but i agree that economic and scientific progress is our number one concern

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 11:50

Ah yes, that's a good middleway. Build them but don't use them unless thrreatened. I would be ok as well with nerve stapling during sunblocks.

Edit: This post made me King!!

Method · August 5, 2002, 12:23

war under market is entirely possible (with ascentic virtues and brood pits) but i do realise that switching to green or police (or both) would be a better possibility.

actually never mind. no brood pits in SMAC.

BTW i'll vote for you DBTS

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 12:35

EDIT:
remember some where in this thread i said i am not that good the first couple of turns on thinker or tracend
will you become a member of p4 too?

Method · August 5, 2002, 12:37

yeah! thats what the

meant!

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 12:51

ok then we have 3 members

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 13:35

The largest party again! Punishment Spheres is even better for wars under FM. Another reason why I wouldn't be anti-atrocity.

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 13:41

then we have our political poly party protocol (again p4) ready.

FM/Demo/not anti-atrocity/flexible/only covert-ops during wartime?

AdamTG02 · August 5, 2002, 13:58

Thanks for the response, DBTS. I'd actually prefer to be called the "organizer" rather than "leader" of the EDP, since once the party gets off the ground all members will be equal.

In response, I'd like to say that I think exploration is something that can be lived by even after we explore the whole planet. Even then, there will still be unsettled areas to fill with bases -- untouched continents, oceans, space (meaning satellites. Granted, in time the EDP would be focusing more on the "Discovery" part of our mission, but thatg doesn't mean there'd be nothing left to explore.

(If you would rather I not post in your party's thread, I will move or delete this post.)

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 14:03

Personally I seldom expand (peacefully) beyond 20 bases. That's why I wouldn't like a huge map as there would be large empty areas between Apolyton and an enemy.
So after the initial expansion phase Explore isn't a priority at all for me. I don't think longterm cooperation is possible between us.

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 14:12

****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****

i must responsed to what ADAM has said. and say that you are right that we can build the entire ocean full with bases (i have heard prokhor speak of such tech. when in the messhall one day

) but will this be the best way to go....? i do not think so. and for space? this is not really exploration its more gaining new rescourses and gain a tactical high ground. but beside this counter i must again stress that p4 will, in the early years of planetfall, explore the planet. blueprints of a specially designed car, also called rover, are ready. and we will have the unity rovers also, if we can find the pods. but citizens do not stare yourself blind on exploration. think of our livingconditions they can only improve by building our cities.

****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****SPECIAL MESSAGE****

Juliennew · August 5, 2002, 16:08

Beign a builder in most of my games, I'm joining this party too.
I think that growth and industry are the points to focus at the beginning of our colonization. We must explore and settle cities as quickly as possible to have a good core of cities as soon as possible. But it isn't only temporary and as soon as we finish our expansion phase, I believe that focusing on energy productionis the most important thing to do.
That's why I propose Democratic/planned at the beginning of our colonization and later Democratic/FM.
Speaking of morale in the war, I think we must prevent any abrogation of the UN chart and NEVER make any atrocities and ban punition's sphere - Even in war time. I'm sure that our strong economy and industry will help to support war by giving distractions to our people. As a famous Roman's emperor said in our homeworld "Bread and games for the people". But for sure, we will need to control our economy during this war time in order to make restoring order easier by our military forces and to boost industry a bit. I'm pro owning planet busters but only for discouraging the others factions to lauch theirs on our territory. I'm also against any counter-offensive using planet busters, as the planetary council will always make a war resolution against the faction who would be foolish enough to use this kind of weapon.
Speaking of ideology, I think we should lean toward wealth and eudomenia to boost our economy, growth and industry to make it the best in Planet. With money, we will do what we want and will be very helpfull to obtain voices in the Planetary council and perhaps technologies from Zakarov, if we aren't already ahead.

Method · August 5, 2002, 16:13

we dont need (really) eudaimonia if we have market. instead i'd use cybernetic for the efficiency and research bump (planet too if we're in market)

DeathByTheSword · August 5, 2002, 16:17

i see there are some discussionspoint on future/ and the atrocities....I think we have to ask maniac, as partyfounder how he wants to form democratic desiscions in the party....

also i want to welcome TKG and Juliennew to p4

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 17:39

Man I just wrote a large reply when I accidently clicked the wrong button and it was all erased.

I'll try and summarize it.

First, since we only have four members, for now we can keep discussing in this thread. The majority wins of course. If we become a very large party with dozens of members (who knows if this demo game becomes a succes

) we might open seperate discussion threads for different topics. After discussion has taken place, a poll thread will be opened. Besides voting on their preferred option, they will have to post what they voted in the thread. Without further reasoning or discussion of course. That was in the other thread. The reason votes can't be done in secret is to prevent non-party members to influence the party policy.

Under the hypothetical situation that are our party would grow to have more than ten members, we will have to keep seperate party elections, parallel with the factionwide ones. These will decide who of our party will try to run for commissionerate and directorate. That core group of democratically elected could also decide party policy if there wouldn't be a clear majority about a subject.

About the atrocity discussion.
Both Juliennew and DBTS agree on building but not necessarily using PBs. Then I will of course follow that policy.
We also all agree to not commit atrocities while the UN Charter is on to prevent economic consequences. May I further propose to not seek to lift the charter? That way we don't need to discuss atrocities right now. (Just preventing an inner party confict

)

That leaves the issue of punishment spheres. Juliennew, I don't suggest building punishment spheres on a regular basis. I would just like to build one in one size one base. To keep it size 1, the first citizen will be made a specialist. The base would be a prison for criminals. It could be called Poly Troll Penal Colony. The prisoners won't undergo sphere treatment on a regular basis of course. It would just be a means of deterrence, to create cooperation from the prisoners. Only the troublemakers would undergo treatment. Is such limited use of the punishment sphere ok for you, Juliennew? That base could also use the prisoners as forced labourers to build an energy park.

On SE, I mostly use the following combinations. Early on Demo/Planned/Wealth. Normally I don't use Democracy early on because of the -2 Support. But because the PKs have an efficiency penalty, it seems necessary here. Later I would switch to Demo/FM/Wealth-Knowledge. In the end-game I use Demo/Green/Knowledge/Eudaimonic.
FM/Cybernetic is as fine as Green/Eudaimonic. We always get the +2 Eco so essential for our builder party.
The difference is the FM/Cybernetic combination gives three boni and two mali, while Green/Eudaimonic gives four boni and one malus.

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 18:51

TKG and Juliennew, what directorates would you prefer? DBTS is running for High Commissioner and I would love to become Director of Terraformation and/or Colonization.

Juliennew · August 5, 2002, 18:58

I would like to race for foreign affairs. With this directorate held by the P4, we will ensure that commerce with the others factions will the more efficient possible and will prevent that a mad gunman destroy our commercial income by entering a war that the P4 don't want.
I would also lean toward especially good relations with Morgan and Zhakarov.

Maniac · August 5, 2002, 19:01

Good luck! You'll need as I think there are already two other candidates for that function.

Juliennew · August 5, 2002, 19:12

We should have someone running for the city planner election as it is our main concern.

I'm OK for the jail's base but I hope we won't need it.

We should also make a general policy speech to clarify our policy on some subjects.

Method · August 5, 2002, 19:34

i'd like to be science minister or the SE and energy rate guy (if there is one)

Method · August 5, 2002, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by M@ni@c
The difference is the FM/Cybernetic combination gives three boni and two mali, while Green/Eudaimonic gives four boni and one malus.

true, but you dont get the +2 research. if we get the backbone (no more police penalty) and if we're in market, it doesn't matter anyways

.

Juliennew · August 5, 2002, 19:37

Good luck TKG.

Juliennew · August 5, 2002, 21:11

Here is the SE choice I would support during peacetime : Demo/FM/Wealth/Eudémonia
Here are the stats that it gives :
Efficiency +1 / Growth +4 / Economy +5!!(+1 energy/square - +4 energy/base - +3 commerce rate) / Industry +3 / Support -3 / Police -5 / Planet -3 / Morale -2

I will support this SE excepted during expansion phase and war time : I will support planned economy to remove the police's problem
I could also support cybernetic if we build the "Network's heart" that removes the cybernetic's malus.

What do you think ?