A further use for Armies

[Theseus]

I'm in the middle of laying a smackdown on Joanie...

I'm playing an Earth map as China, and actually started in the right place. Having osci-slapped around England, India, and Japan, I have had to extend the war all the way to the Nile, where Paris is. Rather than capture and expand, I just want to eviscerate France, and then extort techs.

Riders are great for this kinda thing, btw.

Anyway, see the pic - those are each 14 hp mixed unit Armies, with 1 vet Musketman and 2 elite Swordsman (all of whom had created a GL). I've got 11-12 elite Riders and 3 vet Cav en route and protected by the Armies, and probably another 10-12 on the way through my territory.

The NE Army is within 3- tile range of Paoting, and the SW Army is within 3-tile range of the non-river face of Paris. The middle Army is just in case... Riders and Cavs can reach between the other two without it, but I didn't want to stretch too thin.

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ps: I don;t seem to make very good screen caps... any tips?

[Catt]

Excellent example. Creating a defensive "road" across which offensive units may move free of fears of being attacked and wounded. Or, taking and controlling territory (even if only temporarily, and only doing so with a mobile force), and using control of said territory to maximum advantage. When the objective is met, shift the "controlled road" to the next target.

Nicely highlighted . . .

[monkspider]

Good post Thesus, I know this is rather off-topic, but what mod are you using to get the cool resource images?

[Theseus]

And a compliment back at you, monkspider.. great avatar!

My resource images are somewhere in the Files sections... I think I saw Uberkrux or Trip using them, and chased it down. I really like the combo, btw.

Can't someone say "nice mixed-unit Armies!!"?

[alexman]

Originally posted by Theseus
Can't someone say "nice mixed-unit Armies!!"?

About that map you're playing, how come the starting position for each civ is not cor...

OK, OK... beautiful mixed armies from the mixed army nut. We have come to expect nothing less from you, Theseus!

I wish I were as fortunate as you with leaders in my current game (CF Tourney 2-2). My militaristic Zulu are trying to win by culture. I was just *dying* to get an early Impi-horseman army, but no such luck.

[Harovan]

The best "mixed unit" AI army I ever saw, was one with 1 Infantry, 1 Cavalry and 1 Swordsman in it, in the late industial age .

The best mixed unit army I ever had, consisted of 2 Horsemen and 1 Impi. The Impi died later (the army was godawful down in hp) and I stuffed a Knight on his place. This army served me well until I got Tanks.

Alexman, this reminds me... oh well, I have abandoned the CF Tournament, for a lack of time .

[DeepO]

As long as you are not mixing longbowmen into a MA-army, I can live with it

No, indeed, a mixed army of used elite swordsmen, with some extra protection from a musketman sounds like a good idea, however when you get the pentagon, I would add another defender to the mix if you want to keep using it as a defender for some time.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Great tactics, Theseus.

The sword/musket combo is good (kinda like having a legionary army).

Amusingly enough, I just finished a game AS Joan of Arc last night. I didn't get a leader until the end was near. I used it, however, to make an army, and rediscover the joys of 13hp of Modern Armor (The 1st Armored Cavalry Division + 2 vets). It slices. It dices. It's the MA Cuisinart! Throw in AI units, any AI units, and *presto* you've got mincemeat! Hurry! Buy now, while supplies last!

-Arrian

[Arrian]

I just noticed something... France is in the industrial age. You're using Riders and Cavalry, right? You better hurry, before you've got riflemen to deal with.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
...
The best mixed unit army I ever had, consisted of 2 Horsemen and 1 Impi. The Impi died later (the army was godawful down in hp) and I stuffed a Knight on his place. This army served me well until I got Tanks.
...

(bold/italics added)

HOW does one get a single unit in an army to die without the whole army being destroyed???

[Lord Merciless]

I also noticed that the Frenchies are industrialized. In this case, you want to give up your safe approach and converge all three Armies on the assault. Do you know what garrisons Paris has?

[Theseus]

Good eye, Arrian and LM.

Yep, I was waaaayyy behind in tech... I went to 0% research, and bought my way into the new age, then pounded Paris into the ground, ignoring the PAINFUL loss of maybe 12 Riders and Cavs hurling themselves at fortified Riflemen.

Peace peace peace.
Extort extort extort.

All is well with the world... I got so many GLs in this phase that I have an extra saved up.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Jaybe
HOW does one get a single unit in an army to die without the whole army being destroyed???

If the army is down to 1 hp, the units get killed one after the other. But if one of them wins, the army survives and you can add units again. It was in an earlier version, so I don't know if that was a bug that is already fixed, or not. It happens seldom, though. I saw it only this one time.

Actually I even lied. I looked up my old records. Not only the Impi got killed, but the Impi and one Horseman, and I added 2 Knights.

[Theseus]

I do not believe it works that way anymore.

[Arrian]

Yeah, I've had armies go to 1hp but not die... and all three units survived it (my archer army in the "Game of Ultimate Power" for instance).

Theseus,

What level is that? Emperor? How many GLs would you say you got? What did you use them for?

I started a new GoUP attempt (China/Monarch again), and have been trying to apply some new things I've learned. So far so good, but I spilled water on my keyboard at home and it FREAKED, so I had to cut my playing short last night. Suffice it to say that before firing a shot, I was nearly double the nearest opposition in score. I bought approximately 5-6 workers from the various AIs. That's powerful. Japan is reduced to OCC, and my hordes approach Moscow. No leaders yet - that's the one blemish. 370ish BC.

-Arrian

p.s. The keyboard freakout was actually hilarious, looking back on it. The "4" key just went beserk, so my horseman hordes which were approaching Moscow to my east sudden decided to [Monty Python voice]RUN AWAY!!![/Monty Python Voice].

[Theseus]

Emperor, and be advised that this game was played to test some thoughts on warfighting, so the number of GLs is a little out of the ordinary.

Army
Heroic Epic
Army
Sun Tzu
Army
Sistine
Leonardo's
Bach
Smith
Army
Military Academy

So, 11 so far (and I captured the Colossus and the Pyramids )

BTW, I noticed your tip about buying workers. I used to do the same, check every turn, but I would keep the workers working. Now that I'm a *little* more focused on reputation, I like your idea.

[Arrian]

That's a lot of leaders. Well done.

With regard to the workers, it's not so much reputation, because rep doesn't matter to me on my continent. I intend to kill them all anyway.

It's all about not wanting to be attacked before my strikeforce is ready. In the case of my new China game, I actually did get attacked - by Russia - while building chariots. How annoying. Luckily, they sent a total of 3 warriors and 2 spearmen my way. They also got the Japanese and Germans to declare on me, but I never saw 1 German unit (I graciously made peace later for their map and gold), and I've crushed Japan.

No luck w/leaders thus far, but since most of the AI's have 4-6 cities, and I have 11, coming up on 12, I should be all set. Germany and England are horribly weak, having fought each other to a standstill earlier in the game. France is small but solid, but between Russia and me. Once Russia dies, I will wheel on France. Then Germany. Then England. Then finish Japan. India will be last.

I have to take a good look at the map and really think about iron denial. Russia will lose theirs this turn (next to Moscow). France has one, right on the edge of their borders. That will be easy to cut. I haven't paid attention to the English and Germans, though. That's important. I just beat Construction out of the AI, so Pikemen aren't that far off (must kill Germany soon, must kill the scientific civ soon... arg! So much to do, so little time).

-Arrian

[Lord Merciless]

How big are your maps?

[Theseus]

Me?

The game I'm describing is el mencey's 100X100 Earth map, with 6 AI civ opponents.

[Arrian]

Standard for me. I asked for a Standard/Continents, but got a mega-continent with a total of 7 civs on it. Somewhere out there is a very lonely civ, quietly building.

I wonder... can I win via domination in the middle ages? I've never done that before.

-Arrian

[Lord Merciless]

I'm currently playing Rome on a huge continental map. I have eliminated three AI Civs so far. The main continent has 8 civs and these guys are outresearching me. I want to attack, but all AI civs seem to live in real harmony with each other. Any suggestion on how to get them to fight each other?

[Theseus]

LM, would you mind starting a new thread with that post?

I think there are a LOT of people, both builders and warmongers, who would like to explore that question. Come up with a good title... we might even get Vel and Aeson into the discussion.

[Moonsinger]

Theseus: Have you tried this on patch 1.29f? The AI used to fear the army, but not any more. Nowadays, I notice that they are more willing to attack my army. A lot of them die in trying, but in the end they manage to destroy my army.

[Theseus]

Yep, this is all on 1.29f.

I've made the same observation, though, and handle my babies a little more carefully.

For instance, in this example, when the first Army was still just 2 Swordsmen, I didn't put it at risk until I could position it on a mountain.

I didn't create the Army Waystations, on open ground, until I had added a Musketman to each, bringing them all up to 14 HP. Even then, I had an elite Swordsman stacked with each as insurance. The AIs wouldn't touch them, even with vet Cavs.

[Arrian]

That's a good change I didn't know about. I haven't used armies much since 1.29 came out, so I didn't notice it. Good. I target AI armies immediately. Of course, I understand how to use bombardment to make the task easier, but that's another story...

-Arrian

[Zanthis]

Whats the advantage of a mixed army vs a homogeneous army? Wouldn't 3 musketmen provide better defence than 1 musketman and 2 swordsmen?

[Theseus]

Well, for defensive purposes, yes, clearly a 3X Musketmen Army would be better.

I end up with these mixed unit Armies for a couple of reasons, however.

* I almost always try to generate a GL early in the Swordsmen era (unless I've gotten very lucky with an Archer), which will be used to create the first Army. The Swordsman* who does this can't be upgraded, and can;t generate another GL, so he goes in the Army. That Army then goes out and wins one battle, so I can build the HE. The next Swordsman* also goes into the first Army, which is now insanely strong for the time being. As more Swordsman generate GLs, I keep creating 2X Sword Armies. In the game described above, I went through this 3 times.

* By the time one reaches the era of 4-attack units, the 2x Sword Armies are looking a little weak, even with 10 hps. I generally add a vet Musketman at this point... now I've got a 14 hp Army, but it's better than that.

On offense, the order of attack is elite Sword - elite Sword - vet Musket... that's still pretty good against any defender except Muskets and above.

On defense, the Musket always goes first... even from multiple attackers in the same turn. This is the part I really like! So let's say it gets attacked by a Knight, and loses 3 hps, but then defeats the Knight. Then another Knight hits... the Musket defends again with 1/3 of all available hps, so in the case probably 4 hps. And on and on. Also, note that each defending unit, except the last, gets the use of ALL its hps, rather than dying on the use of its last.

* Later, I will typically add an Infantry to this kind of mixed unit Army, which will again get the benefit of all the underlying hps.

I have these Armies in almost every game (well, not AU 102 ). My guess is that after PTW comes out, I'll just have 1 per game, due to the upgradeability of Swordsmen.

Or maybe not; they're incredibly useful. Imagine one with Immortals instead...

[Foolishman]

Hm, I have a question, couldn't you use your armies as more a buffer for your attacking troops. Example, then enemy swordsman come and challange your main force, send your army in and attack the swordsman, eliminating them, and always have the army in front of the main force to attract all the fire. Though I have only used armies a few times, this proved well on regent, the only problem was that the AI might try to just go for the attack force because they go for weak targets, but in theory, the army could be a great buffer and a "softening" unit for your main attack, or that is at leats my thought... For what it is worth

[Panag]

hi ,

they should give the option to unload an army , ...

have a nice day

[Gen.Dragolen]

Foolishman,

I know of one trick that helps: fortify the army on a hill or mountain (strongpoint) where the enemy troops can still pass. Leave the rest of your forces just far enough back that the AI can't attack and the army should take a passing shot, like as if it was in a fortress.

I could be wrong, but I've seen it happen a few times already, and not just with armies.


D.