Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part 4: Egypt, Babylonia, China

[Wernazuma III]

As you wish my lord, shshshshsh.

[Locutus]

Here's a bold idea (probably too bold): use Egyptian names for Egyptian cities

Here's a list I always use for CtP:

Egyptian cities

------------------

Waset (Thebes)			- New Kingdom Capital, main temple of Amon

Men-Nefer (Memphis)		- Often Old/Middle Kingdom Capital, main temple of Ptah

Iunu (Heliopolis)		- Very important city, main temple of Re

Abtu (Abydos)			- Very important religious site, later main temple of Osiris

Djedu (Busiris)			- Very important city & religious site, temple of Osiris, aka Abusir

Akhmim (Panopolis)		- Very important city and religious site, temple of Min

Adu (Elephantine)		- Very important city, on border with Nubia, military base

Nekhen (Hieraconpolis)		- Capital of Upper Egypt in predynastic times

Per-Wadjet (Buto)		- Capital of Lower Egypt in predynastic times

Tjeny (This)			- Capital of 1st/2nd dynasty, aka Thinis & Girga

Pi-Ramesses			- Capital of Hyksos, built on top of Avaris

Henen-Nesut (Heracleopolis)	- Capital of 9th/10th dynasty, very old city, main temple of Herishef

Itjtawy (Lisht)			- Capital of 12th dynasty

Akhet-Aten			- Capital of 18th dynasty (Akhet-aten, Nefertiti), aka el-Amarna

Harawet (Avaris)		- Capital of 20th dynasty (Ramesses), later rebuilt as Pi-Ramesses

Suan (Tanis)			- Capital in 21st/22nd dynasty, important trade city

Per-Bastet (Bubastis)		- Capital of 22nd dynasty (Libyan), main temple of Bast

Taremu (Leontopolis)		- Capital of 23rd dynasty

Sai (Sais)			- Capital of 24th/26th/28th dynasty

Per-Djedet (Mendes)		- Capital of 29th dynasty, Orisis centre

Tjebnutjer (Sebennytos)		- Capital of 30th dynasty, hometown of Manetho

Ipet-Isut (Karnak)		- Important religious site, northern half of Thebes

Ipet-Resyt (Luxor)		- Valley of the Kings, southern half of Thebes

Rostau (Giza)			- Site of Great Pyramids

Gebtu (Coptos)			- centre for the Upper Egyptian Red Sea trade through Wadi Hammamat

Oryx				- better known as Beni Hassan (Oryx is the nome, not the city)

P-aaleq (Philae)		- Important (very) late New Kingdom religious site

Hut-Heryib (Athribis)		- Temple of Horus, important city in Roman times

Swentet (Syene)			- Twin city of Elephantine but less important, aka Aswan

Djeba (Edfu)			- Old Kingdom mastabas, temple of Horus, aka Apollinopolis Magna

Dashur				- Important pyramid site, Bent & Red Pyramids site (Egyptian name unknown)

Saqqara				- Important pyramid site, site of Steppe Pyramid (Egyptian name unknown)

Senu (Pelusium)			- Militarily very important city (basis for Asiatic campaigns)

Raqote (Alexandria)		- Ptolemeic Capital, one of the greatest cities of the ancient world

Kahi-Nub (Canopus)		- Important port city on Nile Delta, luxury centre

She-Resy (Crocodilopolis)	- Founded by Menes, temple of Sobek, capital of Lower laurel nome

Iuny (Armant)			- Capital of Sceptre nome, main temple of Montu, aka Hermonthis

Khemenu (Hermopolis Magna)	- Important city & religious site, temple of Toth, capital of Hare nome

Sekhem (Letopolis)		- Important city, cult of Hert/Isis and Horus

Nubt (Ombos)			- Temple of Seth, aka Naqada/Tukh

Iunet (Dendera)			- Site of Hathor's main temple, aka Tentyra

Meha (Abu Simbel)		- Location of famous tempels built by Ramesses II

Hut-Sekhem (Diospolis Parva)	- Cult centre of Bat, aka Hiw

Pa-Tum (Pithom)			- Capital of East Harpoon nome, founded by Ramesses II

Hotep-Senusret (Kahun)		- Location of pyramid plus town of Pyramid builders

Sauty (Lykopolis/Asyut)		- Capital of Upper pomegranate tree nome, important in 11th dynasty

Iunyt (Esna)			- Ptolemeic era religious site, main temple of Khnum and Neith

Nekhbet (El-Kab)		- Capital of Rural nome, cult centre of Nekhbet, home of the 18th dynasty

Bakh (Hermopolis)		- Capital of the Hare nome, foremost cult centre of Thoth

Timinhor (Hermopolis Parva)	- Capital of West nome before Alexandria

[Wernazuma III]

Great Locutus. I'll change my list.
Question: What's your source for the original Egyptian names?

[Wernazuma III]

changed! I left Alexandria though. It only became important with this name!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I'm ethnically Chinese and know my NATIVE language better than you.

I am also ethnically Chinese and cannot recall Fu Sang being an ancient name of Japan.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
China (thanks, lord merciless):

Cities
Beijing
Changan
Loyang
Shanghai
Guangzhou
Jiankang
Hongkong
Tsingtao
Kaifeng
Taipeh
Chengdu
Hangzhou
Tientsin
Tatung
Fushun
Anyang
Taiyuan
Shenjang
Wuchang
Yangzhou
Liaojang
Jinan
Lanzhou
Kunmin
Guiling
Changchun
Ningbo
Baoding
Tainan
Jiangling
Suzhou
Zhangjiakou
Taichung
Wuxi
Fuzhou
Ye Chang
Harbin
Xuzhou
Dalian
Baotou
Chongqing
Kaohsiung
Guiyang
Xining
Hohhot
Yumen
Haikou
Nanyang
Xuchang
Chaoge
Gong yang
Tianshui
Zhending

Leaders:
Zhou Wu Wang
Sun Tzu
Shi Huang Di
Liu Che
Wei Qing
Cao Cao
Zhuge Liang
Li Shimin
Li Jin
Zhao Kuangyin
Yue Fei
Zhu Yuangzhang
Xuan Ye
Sun Yat-Tsen
Deng Xiaoping
Chiang Kai-Chek

Nitpicks:

Orders of the cities are wrong (Hong Kong is one of the last). Beijing is out of order but just leave it there. Some of the famous ancient cities aren't in.

As for leaders most of them aren't actually famous for military acumen. Liu Che should definitely be replaced by Hanxin. Zhou Wu Wang be replaced by Jiang Ziya. Both Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang are excellent choices, and so is Yue Fei. Zhu Yuangzhang isn't much of a leader. While most people don't like Mao Zedong he should replace Sun Yat-Tsen.

More later (maybe)

[Lord Merciless]

UR, which other ancient Chinese cities can you think of?

BTW, Great Leaders don't have to be generals/military commanders, but also rulers. Liu Che and Zhu Yuanzhang were indeed very effective rulers.

Wernerzuma, you have to include Ying Zheng as one Chinese GL.

[Maccabee2]

There is another plausible theory. Do a web search on "Shang" and "Olmec", and you will likely find articles about the research of American Sinologist Dr. Xu. He found an amazing likeness between Shang and Olmec writing. This was even carried on National Geographics website within the last three years, though I'm sure the page has expired by now.
Dr. Xu put forward the hypothesis that the sudden appearance of the Olmec civilization might have been caused or contributed to by the arrival of Shang refugees in Central America from the demise of the Shang dynasty when its last emperor was killed.
Of course, Meso-American scholars have berated even the possibility of this. They find it offensive to their national pride.
Scholarly articles have lately been published on even early man's heretofore unsuspected ability to travel wide distances by boat.
So, there was ability and motive. The smoking gun is throughout Shang and Olmec art, bronze work, statuary, and writing, if you have eyes to see it.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
UR, which other ancient Chinese cities can you think of?

For starters, the two capitals of the Shang dynasty. One's the original, then they moved to the other one. There's also Hefei. As a rule of thumb I'd pick the cities around the Yellow River and Yangtze, then Southern China, then Manchuria.

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
BTW, Great Leaders don't have to be generals/military commanders, but also rulers. Liu Che and Zhu Yuanzhang were indeed very effective rulers.

Okay, I still maintain that Hanxin is a better choice than Liu Che. All the emperors of the Ming dynasty range from mediocre to worthless. Kangxi is the best emperor since Tang.

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Wernerzuma, you have to include Ying Zheng as one Chinese GL.

Who's that?

[ranskaldan]

Just to join the fun, here's the Chinese city list that I made up and now play with:

Chang'an
Luoyang
Kaifeng
Taiyuan
Xuzhou
Linzi
Yanjing
Jinling
Yangzhou
Lin'an
Suzhou
Chengdu
Jinzhou
Hanzhong
Liangzhou
Changsha
Xiangyang
Jinan
Guangzhou
Fuzhou
Wenzhou
Nanchang
Quanzhou
Kunming
Guilin
Datong
Lanzhou
Qingdao
Chongqing
Wuchang
Shanghai
Dalian
Shenyang
Chengde
Changchun
Harbin
Jilin
Qiqihar
Anqing
Zhengzhou
Guiyang
Nanning
Yinchuan
Xining
Xiamen
Shantou
Haikou
Shenzhen
Zhuhai
Hong Kong
Macao
Taipei
Kaohsiung
Keelung

As you can see, it starts with ancient city names and slowly gets to the modern ones. But for the nitpickers, it contains no super-ancient cities (Anyang for instance) because I don't really like having Anyang as the capital of my glorious empire...

(for those of you who can't find Beijing in that list, Yanjing was an old name for Beijing.)

for leaders, I generally play with eight names (yeah i run out):
Sun Tzu
Liu Bang
Cao Cao
Zhuge Liang
Li Shimin
Yue Fei
Zhu Yuanzhang
Qianlong

It's a mixed bag and not totally consistent, but I like it.

Fu Sang > is a poetic name for Japan. Of course some people prefer to say that it's Mexico instead. When an ancient text says "the Land of Fu Sang" it's really hard to figure out where exactly it is.

Ying Zheng = Shi Huang Di = Qin Shi Huang = the First Emperor of China

And finally, for those who strive to find links between Chinese and Mesoamerican cultures, explain:

Why was there no rice, wheat or millet in Mexico, and why was there no corn or potatoes in China?
Why were there no horses or pigs in Mexico, and no turkeys in China?
Why did the American Indians have no resistance whatsoever to Eurasian diseases, if the Chinese had brought it to them 2000+ years in advance?
Why is there not a single Chinese word in any Mesoamerican language, nor a single Nahuatl word in Chinese?
Finally, where are the records, of how and why the Chinese made boats able to cross the Pacific, in an age when they could barely make it to Japan?

Are the only link between the Shang and Olmecs in writing, statues, bronze working and art? Is it that the Shang and Olmecs both decide to represent "bird" with a picture of a bird, both decide to craft hollow bronze containers, and both create non-proportional flat representations of people - proof that they are related?

[Wernazuma III]

Please guys, no more Chinese cities.

UR, do you think one can live with my lists as they are?

[ranskaldan]

Wernazuma:

actually, your Chinese city list has got some problems.... it seems to get more ancient along the way, there're too many Taiwanese cities in it, and the Romanization is very inconsistent.

which is why i gave you an alternative list in the first place.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Fu Sang > is a poetic name for Japan. Of course some people prefer to say that it's Mexico instead. When an ancient text says "the Land of Fu Sang" it's really hard to figure out where exactly it is.

Except when said text decribes in exact distances the lay of the
land. Fu Sang being a poetic name for Japan was not claimed until the 18th century, yet the name popped up in records 4000 years older than that.

Why was there no rice, wheat or millet in Mexico, and why was there no corn or potatoes in China?

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling there, and there was no agriculture yet in Mexico.
Otoh, there WAS rice elsewhere in the Americas later.

Why were there no horses or pigs in Mexico, and no turkeys in China?

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling in Mexico, and turkeys were not domesticated at the time.

Why did the American Indians have no resistance whatsoever to Eurasian diseases, if the Chinese had brought it to them 2000+ years in advance?

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't carry these diseases. Remember that the Amerinds came from Siberia, so why wouldn't they already know these diseases if the Chinese did, too?

Why is there not a single Chinese word in any Mesoamerican language, nor a single Nahuatl word in Chinese?

Actually there are. Only, in contrast to what we are used to, equal words means equal glyphs to the Chinese, rather than equal sounds. The Amerind glyphs closely resemble the original Chinese glyphs.

Finally, where are the records, of how and why the Chinese made boats able to cross the Pacific, in an age when they could barely make it to Japan?

Who says the crossed the pacific? Anyway, the records are in the Imperial Archives in Beijing.

Are the only link between the Shang and Olmecs in writing, statues, bronze working and art? ...

The Shang connection is doubtful, the claim is that some refugees made it to the Americas (California rather than Mexico) when that dynasty came to an end.
China was supposedly better equipped for such undertakings in the era before the Shang dynasty.
There are also the legends told by the Amerinds about a people from the west (their west) visiting them long before the white men came, in addition to the Chinese historic records. The Olmec statues, depicting kings with African features, are of course a link to Africa, not to China.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Who's that?

You don't know that Yin Zheng was the first emperor of China?

[Ribannah]

Small correction: he was the self-proclaimed first emperor of a united China (221 BC).

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Except when said text decribes in exact distances the lay of the
land. Fu Sang being a poetic name for Japan was not claimed until the 18th century, yet the name popped up in records 4000 years older than that.

So what? If a Chinese text mentions a land 10000~ miles south of China, we must assume it's Antarctica even though there's no conceivable way to get there with ancient technology?

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling there, and there was no agriculture yet in Mexico.
Otoh, there WAS rice elsewhere in the Americas later.

Rice was carried over after Columbus.
Besides, no matter where anyone is going, they've gotta bring FOOD with them. Columbus brought wheat and horses with him, and brought turkeys and tobacco back. It's a simple matter of survival and profit.

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't plan on settling in Mexico, and turkeys were not domesticated at the time.

Again, the sailors would need some form of food.

Possible explanation: the Chinese didn't carry these diseases. Remember that the Amerinds came from Siberia, so why wouldn't they already know these diseases if the Chinese did, too?

No. Most of epidemic diseases people have today (smallpox etc) came originally from large domesticated animals, like cattle and sheep. The Amerinds would not have any exposure to such diseases, but they would if they were visited by Old World peoples.
Besides, by your logic, the Amerinds would have had a full dose of Old World diseases, and thus wouldn't have minded the Spanish germs at all, right?

Actually there are. Only, in contrast to what we are used to, equal words means equal glyphs to the Chinese, rather than equal sounds. The Amerind glyphs closely resemble the original Chinese glyphs.

Glyphs don't prove anything. The Egyptian glyph for bird looks like the Chinese one too. What does prove something is large numbers of shared spoken words. The English word "algebra" comes from an Arabic word pronounced "al-jabr", though they are written in very different ways. That tells us something about contact between Europe and the Middle East. But no spoken word has been proven to be a link between China and Mexico.

Who says the crossed the pacific? Anyway, the records are in the Imperial Archives in Beijing.

Pan'gus creation of the world with an ax can be found in the Imperial Archives too. Perhaps we should take that as fact?

The Shang connection is doubtful, the claim is that some refugees made it to the Americas (California rather than Mexico) when that dynasty came to an end.
China was supposedly better equipped for such undertakings in the era before the Shang dynasty.
There are also the legends told by the Amerinds about a people from the west (their west) visiting them long before the white men came, in addition to the Chinese historic records. The Olmec statues, depicting kings with African features, are of course a link to Africa, not to China.

Again, the same point. What we see are tales from oral traditions plus similarities in art. What about the real things archeology looks for - the pottery, the plants, the animals, the ruins, the tombs, the Jiaguwen? (No, not "similar glyphs", I mean full fledged Chinese Turtleshell Script.)

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
If a Chinese text mentions a land 10000~ miles south of China, we must assume it's Antarctica even though there's no conceivable way to get there with ancient technology?

If it describes the exact lay of the land, then you'd have to reconsider your thoughts on ancient tech.

Besides, no matter where anyone is going, they've gotta bring FOOD with them.

That doesn't imply that this 'anyone' is also going to grow his home food at the 'where'. The Chinese expeditions, in contrast to the later European ones, had no intent of settling, trade or plunder, they were exploratory only (and the later ones to spread Buddhism). One does not find Chinese lifestock in Africa either, or any wildebeests in China, even though they set up many embassies along the coast.

Columbus brought wheat and horses with him, and brought turkeys and tobacco back. It's a simple matter of survival and profit.

That is western thinking.

Most of epidemic diseases people have today (smallpox etc) came originally from large domesticated animals, like cattle and sheep. The Amerinds would not have any exposure to such diseases, but they would if they were visited by Old World peoples.

Not if that happened before those diseases had affected humans. But it could also be that the Chinese did bring older diseases, and many Amerinds died, but nobody recorded this.

The Egyptian glyph for bird looks like the Chinese one too.

My guess is that they both look like a bird.
However, the rest of the Amerind glyphs look just like the Chinese, too, which is not the case for the Egyptians. In fact,
when these glyphs were presented to Chinese experts without the info that they came from America, these experts immediately recognized them as a Chinese dialect.

What does prove something is large numbers of shared spoken words. The English word "algebra" comes from an Arabic word pronounced "al-jabr", though they are written in very different ways.

Again, western thinking.
But, one word (there'll be a few more, OK), as a result of many, many centuries of intense contact. Wow, I'm impressed.

Pan'gus creation of the world with an ax can be found in the Imperial Archives too. Perhaps we should take that as fact?

Did it come with exact measurements of the size of the axe, which was then found to match the axe found on the bottom of the Dead Sea in 1994?

What about the real things archeology looks for - the pottery, the plants, the animals, the ruins, the tombs, the Jiaguwen?

Since the pottery didn't differ from the native pottery (on which the glyphs were first written), that one's out.
The plants and animals I dismissed above. Besides, there were no Viking plants and animals found in the Americas either, even though the Vikings had several settlements, something the Chinese never had (hence: no ruins or tombs).
However, archeologists did find a catch of old Chinese coins, and anchor stones equal to the ones the Chinese used.

Now I have a question.

Why is it so hard to believe that the Chinese reached the Americas, while (1) nobody denies that they made much longer journeys in the opposite direction, and (2) they could easily have known about the Americas from their Siberian and Tunguz neighbours who went there before them?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ribannah

If it describes the exact lay of the land, then you'd have to reconsider your thoughts on ancient tech.

Alright... quote me the part that describes the Yucatan.

That doesn't imply that this 'anyone' is also going to grow his home food at the 'where'. The Chinese expeditions, in contrast to the later European ones, had no intent of settling, trade or plunder, they were exploratory only (and the later ones to spread Buddhism). One does not find Chinese lifestock in Africa either, or any wildebeests in China, even though they set up many embassies along the coast.

Wildebeests were not domesticated, so it would be pointless to bring them along for food.
Besides, Zheng He did bring giraffes back to the Chinese court. That's not hard. Why isn't there a single pig, chicken or cow in Mexico until Columbus?

That is western thinking.

Yes. We easterners can survive by eating rock and drinking sea water.

Not if that happened before those diseases had affected humans. But it could also be that the Chinese did bring older diseases, and many Amerinds died, but nobody recorded this.

That's a good point.

My guess is that they both look like a bird.
However, the rest of the Amerind glyphs look just like the Chinese, too, which is not the case for the Egyptians.

Just like?! Show me.

In fact,
when these glyphs were presented to Chinese experts without the info that they came from America, these experts immediately recognized them as a Chinese dialect.

If this is really as widely received by all Chinese experts as you think it to be, it would have become an enormous media event by now.
However, since Jiaguwen consisted mainly of scratching-like pictures, I doubt that the Chinese were alone in coming up with something like it.

Again, western thinking.
But, one word (there'll be a few more, OK), as a result of many, many centuries of intense contact. Wow, I'm impressed.

The Europeans and Arabs traded immense numbers of words. English received "admiral", "alcohol", "alkaline", among others. Spanish, I heard, is stuffed full of Arab words.
If the Mexicans and Chinese had close enough contact to trade writing systems, they would doubtlessly have traded vocabulary too. But there is not a trace of that anywhere.

Did it come with exact measurements of the size of the axe, which was then found to match the axe found on the bottom of the Dead Sea in 1994?

Did the Shanhaijing include a geographical map of MesoAmerica?

Since the pottery didn't differ from the native pottery (on which the glyphs were first written), that one's out.
The plants and animals I dismissed above. Besides, there were no Viking plants and animals found in the Americas either, even though the Vikings had several settlements, something the Chinese never had (hence: no ruins or tombs).

The Vikings settled extensively on Greenland only, and their forages into continental North America were inconclusive. They didn't leave behind Christianity nor the Roman Alphabet, but I'm supposed to accept that the Chinese left behind the Chinese script?
Besides, if you dismiss all sorts of proof and postulate only the scenario that would leave no proof - then you have no scenario.

However, archeologists did find a catch of old Chinese coins, and anchor stones equal to the ones the Chinese used.

Shang dynasty coins were in fact seashells.

Now I have a question.

Why is it so hard to believe that the Chinese reached the Americas, while (1) nobody denies that they made much longer journeys in the opposite direction,

Because those journeys came much later AND were well documented from many angles in a realistic, contemporary manner.

and (2) they could easily have known about the Americas from their Siberian and Tunguz neighbours who went there before them?

The Shang barely knew about the tributaries of the Yangtze. Anything that they could hear about North America would be so distorted by word of mouth that they would be no different from purely fabricated myth.

[Wernazuma III]

One more post, ranskaldan or Ribannah, and I'll have to ask close this thread. Discuss this elsewhere, it's really annoying to have this private conversation in here. You should agree about opening a thread on this in Off-Topic.
I'm currently working on Early Modern (16th-18th cent.) theories about the origin of Indians and their cultures, so I have to deal with these arguments during work and don't need it in my spare time.

So, no more posts about this!!!
Case closed

[Ribannah]

* Crowd bids Wernazuma III to discuss his work on these forums *

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by Ribannah
It is well documented in the Shan Hai King by minister and later
emperor Yu, who sent out explorers to 'the four corners of the earth'.

The voyage to Fu Sang, as they called the Americas, was measured to be about 7,000 miles east of China. The priest reported that 'the cities of this country need no walls as they wage no wars'. Stone arrowheads (Folsom Points?) were returned as tribute to Emperor Yu in 2205 B.C.

I have to add though that there is some confusion whether Hwui Shan was on the first Chinese expedition to the Americas or on a later one (around 500 AD). But there seems to be little doubt that he is a real historical figure.

yeah but christobal columbo was a better, more charismatic marketer. leif and barney landed in newfoundland, fought the iroquois and left - tried to get other people to forget about vinland... columbo might have been in another place but he sold it to all of europe. there wasn't much gold in the caribeean, but he said there was lots, he traded goods there... pigs in america , potatoes, tomatoes in europe..

so if chinese had better press then and maybe got russia and india interested...

[ranskaldan]

alright, back to the existing topic:

what about the current chinese "unique" unit, the "Rider"?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
alright, back to the existing topic:

what about the current chinese "unique" unit, the "Rider"?

Call it "Tieji", or "Iron Knight" translated into English.

[ranskaldan]

You mean Tieqi?