Revolution.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
UberKruX is right, if he says, that something has to change. I have supported this too, several times in the near past. These turnchats are indeed a big waste of time. 2 hours to get 3 or 4 turns done, that's bad. In this time I'm through the whole ancient era, and may be even farther. Of course, the way UberKruX intends to manage this change, is just ridiculous. There have been some useful threads about turnthreads and alike. Why not support and further develop these ideas instead of launching silly "revolutions" like this?

By the way, I did also not vote. Not even for Abstain. But to stick the head in the sand like an ostrich and to hide in some "embassies" is also no solution, not at all.

Sir Ralph. Sometimes to get the wheel rolling drastic measures must be taken. The system has been flawed and opposed for a while now, but it wasn't anything large scale.

People ignored it.

Now people are voicing their hatred of the system under my complaints.

Sure, it might not lead to a revolution, but you know something will get done RIGHT NOW.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Uber,

With only one post, you have already obtained a lot ; among the many answers you received, some where purely dialectical and could not help, but others where plainly constructive. It is now generally accepted that changes must be made, and the proposals offered by Spiffor and Sir Ralph are completely in line with what you want, and they are widely supported.

In fact, if you don?t make of this a personal affair, and if you were given reasonable guaranties that the changes urgently needed will be enforced within, let say two weeks, there seems to be no serious reason not to come back within the safe borders of the law.

Incidentally, we have heard no objection to the construction of a huge arc de triomphe devoted to your person in case of a brilliant success in the battle of Paris.

Exactly my point. The government was growing stagnant with threads on useless topics, and complaints were lost / etc. The system wasn't changing at all.

How long have you guys been debating the Impeachment things? I stopped following it after page 2. Just tell me when I can vote to oust Punkbass and how to do it. I'll wait for people to polish that one.

And a major point is that we need to do this soon. The orders are just going to pile up more and mroe each turn. The elections are soon. Why would we vote for a Science Advisor if in 2 weeks we're not going to have one. The time for change is NOW. BEFORE elections.

[GePap]

First of all, perhaps I should sue Uber for taking my ideas for government reform without mention Only half kidding of course, since I have been proposing a change in gov for a while, and Uber's concept looks very similar to one I posted in one of the governor threads. In theory then, I would approve of Ubers cahnge, in fact , I do, though he forgets about the whole changing the sliders for the econ, which I guess he would put under Domestic. BUt I wholly disagree with the premise of the thread.

As is obvious from Ubers logs, I was there, and I agree with him that we were overly slow- but the problem I saw was not kidding around-that always happens, it was an inablity for people to take responsibility. We need cabinet members to make decisons- sadly we have too many cabinet members so when several don't show up, either for just one turnchat, and punkbass, never, we are left wth the question of who should take over- this is when the "I don't want the job' mentality mixes with the 'democracy' notion, and everyone says they can't do it because they were not elected, and we need one or another form of quickpoll. For the life of me I could not figure out why it took 6-10 minutes to chose what tech to research next- we can change that at any moment without consequence, so anyone coul have just said-pick X, and we can change it at any time. Even when we had the quickpol, it tok a while for the outcome to become action- too long.

While I think that Uber's proposed new system would greatly help, I think his actions yesterday, and this thread, are another form of that giving up responsibility. We elected ministers and they not only should be in turchats but stick in there, and if they need to leave, they should leave orders. Good-Fella got sick of things and he left, but he told everyone ahead of time he was leaving and left orders for the rest of the turnchat. If Uber felt he could no longer take it, things were going too slowly and people are not taking things seriously, fine, tell everyone "I am sick of this, I need to leave, this are my orders for the future, blahh, bye" then leave,but just leaving, without warning and without leaving orders I can't support. We elect members to the cabinet not just to make academic plan, but to govern also- that will not always be fun, it might be exasparating, but it also means taking responsibility for ones actions and how they wil affect others and the game.

We have a system I think we do need to change- I think debate on radical change is needed- I think we need a better CoL- but we must get there throguh agreement, not confrontation- most revolution eat their own young, destroy quickly and leave a shattered behind- many people may vote for the revolution in this poll, but how many of them are simply voting out of frustration and themselves have no clue about what to do next? Can those people who support the revolution write a decent CoL, and avoid this game loosing 50% of its citizens? That so many people are fed up means we need real change- real reform- but not revolution, for that may tear this game apart and end it, hardly the best outcome of all.

[Kuciwalker]

The game cannot be fixed internally. The CoL is too messed up for that. We need to completely rewrite it.

[jdjdjd]

Certainly, we all have rights under the Code of Laws to amend them and impeach officials. Those polls could be posted according to the CoL, and they would need to garnish 2/3's support.

If you feel the whole system needs to be thrown out, that would be a simple amendment to the CoL on a grand scale, and require the same 2/3 vote. (it is an amendment to delete the CoL in its entirity or much of it, and replace it with new laws).

You could do it if you want. I can't say it would pass or that I agree, but is within the realm of possibilities.

The problem with a revolution here is that you can not intimidate or destroy the powers that be or your opponent, so those that wish to preserve the status quo could vote against your revolution, and therefore defeat it..

Please, this in no way is a statement for or against a revolution, but just a clarification, if you will, of its legality within the system on such a scale. I mean I voted for many or all of the people arguing, including Uber, so I am not looking to chop heads, but, merely point out that in our context a revolution would have to take the form of a 2/3's vote in an official poll for impeachment and/or amendment to (or erasing of) the CoL.

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by skywalker
The game cannot be fixed internally. The CoL is too messed up for that. We need to completely rewrite it.

Easy to say, now back it up. People won't listen for long when you don't.

[Kuciwalker]

This would be a simple majority vote. Does anyone really want to try and force more than half of the citizenry to follow rules they don't agree with? Either the Demo Game will be destroyed by this, or it will come out all the better for it.

[Kuciwalker]

Jdjdjd - just read our CoL. It's huge. I got bored halfway through, and I'm the person whose remedy for Civics class's bored was to read the Constitution. The document needs to be thrown out and rewritten, not just have a little notice tacked onto the end.

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by skywalker
This would be a simple majority vote. Does anyone really want to try and force more than half of the citizenry to follow rules they don't agree with? Either the Demo Game will be destroyed by this, or it will come out all the better for it.

Not according to the current CoL.

[Kuciwalker]

This isn't an amendment. This is a simple poll about GETTING RID OF the CoL. Therefore, the CoL has no power over it.

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by skywalker
Jdjdjd - just read our CoL. It's huge. I got bored halfway through, and I'm the person whose remedy for Civics class's bored was to read the Constitution. The document needs to be thrown out and rewritten, not just have a little notice tacked onto the end.

I have read it many times, or sometimes I skim through and look for the section I want. Its amazing.

But if its too long for you, you could include in your amendment to erase the CoL.

[Kuciwalker]

It's not an amendment. A revolt is not an amendment. It is a revolt.

[Spiffor]

You're the only one revolting skywalker

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by skywalker
It's not an amendment. A revolt is not an amendment. It is a revolt.

But in the context we have here it is not a true revolt, you are not going to take over by force, you can't. So, you have to put it into the context of what you have here. You need to discard the CoL, but you can't just do it. You need significant support from the population, not just 18 Yes votes out of 200 some odd members, with clearly indicated abstains or people passing on voting because they do not find this forum valid.

As you indicate the majority must be behind you, it clearly is not based on this thread.

I am saying you can do it, but you need to do it the right way, or even less of the citizens will participate. Like someone once said, "What if we had a revolution and no one showed up?", well, you couldn't have it then, could you.

Again, in no way do I condone or reject a revolution, just trying to put it into context of the game.

[Kuciwalker]

Look at the poll. "Yes" happens to be winning.

[Trevman]

For one thing, I believe the reason yes is winning is because the "no" option is so biased. Hmm, maybe a problem for the court.

But anyways, I believe the problem is not with Timeline, Ninot, and crew, but with the absent ministers. Our loyal ministers have to do the job of several others in addition to their's. In result, there is no clear consensus on what to do because no one has authority over it. So naturally 4 other ministers assume authority and debate forever on it. Notice how quickly the research debate was conclueded when Apocalypse finally showed up. What's tearing this game apart is the absent ministers who don't seem to care about this game or aren't responsible enough to not run when they will not be able to fulfill their duties.

And part of this can be blamed on you, yes you Uberkrux, for instead of hammering out a solution, you just fan the flames with an equally childish idea of revolution. And to think that I thought you were a levelheaded guy, but it just turns out that you are as vicious and aggressive as you are rumured to be.

What we need is ministers who will responsibly fulfill their duties andcan get along and find solutions instead of grabbing at eachother's throats. Maybe an amendment is in order to delegate duties when ministers don't show up for turnchats.

[Kuciwalker]

What bias?

Leaving sarcasm out of it, though, I think it's rather demeaning of us to imply that any of us would be swayed by the choice. Don't you trust people to make their own evaluation of things?

[notyoueither]

skywalker, less than 50% are voting yes as of now.

What are you going to do if that trend continues? Are you going to attempt to force the Revolution of 20 people on 25 (or 270)?

At any rate, I believe Uber has already met his real objective. I am guessing that as being to speed fumdamental change in the way the game is being played. Kudos for that.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes may not have 50%, but it's still winning.

[Trevman]

Originally posted by skywalker
What bias?

Leaving sarcasm out of it, though, I think it's rather demeaning of us to imply that any of us would be swayed by the choice. Don't you trust people to make their own evaluation of things?

There was only about a dozen of us at that turnchat. I doubt that the rest of the citizenry can make a fair evalutation based on what Uberkrux has said.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by skywalker
Yes may not have 50%, but it's still winning.

its not a majority tho.

if less than half of the voters dont want what is proposed, are you going to use your minority to impose it?

[Robber Baron]

Okay, this one is really absurd:

Originally posted by skywalker
This isn't an amendment. This is a simple poll about GETTING RID OF the CoL. Therefore, the CoL has no power over it.

Oh, wait a minute, I think he was serious!

The code of laws "has no power" over the question of whether we should play by the code of laws? C'mon, tell me you were joking.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by skywalker
It's not an amendment. A revolt is not an amendment. It is a revolt.

It's not a revolt, it's an effort to hijack our game. Pure and simple.

[Ninot]

ya know... if this "revolt" is somehow succesful (cuz who knows maybe the new COL of the revolt states if yes gets 30% of the vote, it will succeed).... then we could just revolt again!

long live the screwy rebellion!

[GoodFella]

Holy Sh*t

[Kramerman]

This isn't an amendment. This is a simple poll about GETTING RID OF the CoL. Therefore, the CoL has no power over it.

This sucks. I was just joking around before. I didnt grasp the seriousness of this. I though the revolt was just a role playing the expression of the need of a major CoL amendment(s) or something. I didnt realize it was to completely throw out the CoL. perhaps I should read the posts before voting, eh? Anyhow, any problems experienced I am sure can be resolved through the CoL and by simply amending it. By overturning it we would be in anarchy - the game at a standstill. And though I enjoy the role paying aspect of the demo game, the game playing aspect IS the main part. If the game playing is halted for an extended amount of time, having an attentin span of about 2 minutes, as i do, I will probably move on to something else.

I am not threatening to leave or anything, just stating the fact that it is my nature, as it is many peoples, that when I get bored with something I find something new to entertain myself. So this little revolution may drive some of the already fledgling active population of the demo game away elsewhere. This would be its ruin

On the other hand we could just try to amend the CoL with the neccessary changes, like city governors or whatever. We could continue to play the game through this process, where we couldn't if we threw out the CoL completely. That is my 2 cents.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by UberKruX


exactly. endless debates on issues that probably wont be amended anyway. upheaval is the only way. and it saves a lot of time.

Saves a lot of time. Loses quite a few citizens. And kills out all the fun.

Really, a good compromise... *Goes back to AC Democracy Game*

[Guardian]

Originally posted by skywalker
Yes may not have 50%, but it's still winning.

Okay... so, if YOU feel like it, it doesn't even need to be a majority vote, eh?

Originally posted by Ninot
ya know... if this "revolt" is somehow succesful (cuz who knows maybe the new COL of the revolt states if yes gets 30% of the vote, it will succeed).... then we could just revolt again!

long live the screwy rebellion!

There won't be any point in making any new COL at all, because anyone who doesn't like some thing or another can simply call a "revolt" and throw it out again - and they don't even need to be in majority to do it!

[Kramerman]

[not serious mode]
The best way to solve this 'revolution', is the way our ancestors solved revolutions, through BLOOD! and STEEL! (or iron or whatever the hell hard metal we have).

Loyalists, to your arms! We must defend the Empire from the internal Coup de 'Eta (SP?), led by the infamous Supreme Military Commander UberKrux. We will succeed, for the Banana is on our side. He came to me in a vision. We must defend our nation to the bitter end!!!
[/ not serious mode]

Too bad we all live on different corners of the earth...

[mtgillespie]

The crux of this matter is that a few people don't like the way things are being done, but they are too lazy, or too impatient, or too full of their own importance, to get things changed the right way. What this poll says is "i don't like the way things are done, so do it all my way". No debate, no consenus, no thought for how anyone else wants things done, or all the work that has been put in by others on our current CoL. Is it perfect? No, because as in all areas of life, things change, and we can't forsee all future situations. Is it better than starting over? Without a doubt. It's not set in stone, you can attempt to change what you don't like. Have you considered the consequences of throwing out the CoL. Aside from the fact that if this "revolution" is successful, what will stop the next one, what do you think will happen once we have no rules. Do you think you can propose a new set, and everyone will say OK, that's fine, thanks for that? Do you remember the work that went into that document? What makes you think it will be so simple this time? How many turns do you think will get played while all this is being sorted out?

All i can add is that if this is successful, we will have no right to call this the deomcracy game any more, and probably not enough citizens to form a government.