Constitutional Convention

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 00:59

What, no rotten tomatoes yet? OK maybe I haven't given you adequate opportunity to load your weapons. Perhaps when I am done you will have had time.

It struck me a long while ago that we had somewhat short circuited the process of arriving at a good constitution to allow an effective code of laws and body politic. How, you ask?

Well, most of the constitution was written or otherwise assembled by a single individual or small group with little or no awareness that the whole must be a simple, coherent document that could stand the test of time and trials. Surely they meant well. I am convinced that Trip and others did only what they felt was necessary to get the game on the road. That they did.

What they did not do is allow a single process of thoughtful deliberation to formulate a single, coherent plan and then put that to the people for approval. Yes, amendments can and must come later, however we are experiencing the amendment of the month (or week). This is no way to run a nation.

The original constitution would serve very well for a democratic game of 30 or 50 citizens. Most of the other demo games have that, or less. It does not serve well for a demo game of near 300. Here consensus is a time consuming thing to arrive at. Hence, we need a stong and durable constitution to both guide us in our dark hours and to free us to fulfil our destiny.

Is it too late to create such a document? Who would be tasked to debate it, write it, and present it back to us? How would that process be undertaken? Do we need it?

I open the topic to the citizens to consider (or to fire rotten vegetable matter at the author).

carpathia · August 9, 2002, 01:15

Im with you notyoueither. We need a document that can act as supreme law of the land without being changed every twenty-four hours. Something that outlines the specific duties of each person and grants us the protection against any wrong doers. Im with you in calling for a debate to provide a rock solid constitution.

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 01:46

If we make a new constitution, does this mean a revolution? Or would we just place it over the old constitution like a radical amenedment?

If I were to remake the constitution, to fix our problem of 300 players we could add a senate made of senators elected from each town/province/whatever. All the citizens of Apolytonia would have to claim residency in one of our cities (edit: notifying the proper authorities when they wish to move), and then they could vote for the governor of that city, the senator(s) from that city, and then vote for national officials like ministers and the prez. It would be up to Senators to represent their city in turnchats, by making elected official run turnchats I believe they could be made more organized. And I dont know how many people usually atend a turnchat, but this would probably reduce the number of people also contributing to the coherentness of turn chats. Senators would also pass 'laws', or things that were laws or policies, but not quite amendments. The citizenry would still have to pass amendments and confirm justices, I think. Ministers should run with a vice-minister in their position, so if they can not make a turnchat (Ideally they both would make it), their suboordinate would be their to take over for them. The ministers jobs could also be performed by 3 ministers only - the duties of all our present ministers split amoong them. Just some initial ideas, Ill probably add more later.

Kman

Donal Graeme · August 9, 2002, 01:56

Wow, I hadn't thought of creating a Federal System of government, good idea Kman. That will neccesitate some looking into. I do agree however, that we need two seperate legal entities: a Constitution, and a Code of Laws. We need to establish a constitution first, and then a COL. There needs to be some hefty discussion on how this is to be done, though.

carpathia · August 9, 2002, 02:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Kramerman

If I were to remake the constitution, to fix our problem of 300 players we could add a senate made of senators elected from each town/province/whatever. All the citizens of Apolytonia would have to claim residency in one of our cities (edit: notifying the proper authorities when they wish to move), and then they could vote for the governor of that city, the senator(s) from that city, and then vote for national officials like ministers and the prez.

Yeah but think about how many elected officials we allready have. There is only three hundred people in Apolytonia. If we keep expanding and were to take each city and give it a governer and a senator then sooner or later Apolytonia would end up being a bunch of Senators and Governers. And that would make it like everyone is just a citizen because they will all end up with pretty much the same power. There going to be able to do what there allready doing. Debate a situation and take a poll on a corse of action. So then this original plan of action your insisting on would be a waste of time and be to time consuming for the public to pick a city to live in and then report it to the authorities. Just a little food for thought.

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 02:10

*GoodFella pauses from loading rotten tomatoes into catapult*

Technically we may have around 300+ citizens, but how many of them have, are, and will be actually active? Watch the elections, realistcally I'm guessing there are mabee 100 to 150 at the most that are active (and don't get me wrong, of couirse I know that YOU, yes, YOU at your computer screen are very active).

I do agree, that our government needs a major overhaul, and I have to say so far the Uber/Skywalker plan looks pretty good.

*GoodFella resumes loading rotten tomatoes into catapult*

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 02:26

Fire!

Yes GoodFella. However, that 300 is coming by 75 at a time at any given time. Remember that not all of us tune in everyday and anyday. At any rate, even 100 to 150 is far more than most demo games have attracted. Look at it this way, we are being victims of our own success

As far as discussing concrete proposals here... OK. However, I am trying to point out that specific proposals about any given topic discussed in any one thread have lead to a confused and contradictory constitution as is. For instance, currently both the executive AND the court have authority to decide on the validity of polls. Was this the intention of the court amendment? I don't think so. However, it is a product of the way we have managed the evolution of the constitution to date.

What I am asking is if we have enough experience to be able to appoint or elect a body to form a single, coherent document for the people to approve as a new constitution. You may call it the second republic if you wish. I believe France is currently on the sixth. I hope that fortune and wisdom would grant that two is sufficient.

carpathia · August 9, 2002, 02:31

How about this. We appoint ten of our most knowledgeable and respected people and we give them a set period of time. And during this time they debate and come up with Apolytons perfect constitution. I say we have he Justices and Ninot of course and any other able body leaders to draw up our new constitution. Just a thought though.

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 02:34

That's a start carpathia.

Actually, an even number would be good. It would mandate the assembly of a consensus within that group, for if it were dead-locked nothing would happen. I don't think anyone is in favour of no change at this point.

DAVOUT · August 9, 2002, 02:36

France is on the 5th, but some are already tired of it !

carpathia · August 9, 2002, 02:38

How about seven then; President, Vice president, two Justices, two ministers, and one appointed citizen. The public has to have a representative.

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 02:43

Throw the ideas around.

DAVOUT, still the fifth? I thought there was another after the war. Or was the pre war the fourth? Heh. I'm not the expert you would be. At any rate, they've done it a few times so there is precedent.

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 02:47

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT
France is on the 5th, but some are already tired of it !

America is still on number 1!!!!!!!(not counting the Indians, Britain, and Articles of Confederation, of course)

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 02:47

France is on Republic Nine From Outer Space, the previous eight failed...

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 02:49

Republic Nine From Outer Space involves raising the recent dead, including Bela Lugosi reincarnated into a hooded wrestler...

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 02:50

As for our active participants 150 was the absolute max, 100 was opptomistic, 60-75 is probably realistic (and of course I mean YOU, don't get me wrong, I know YOU sitting there are incredibly active!)

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 03:00

Goodfella, was it really neccessary to write 3 posts for that?

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 03:01

Yes, yes it was.

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 03:05

was it really?

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 03:12

He could have fired tomatoes at me. Leave him alone.

GoodFella · August 9, 2002, 03:15

*GoodFella launches rotten tomatoes at Kramerman*

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 03:30

****!!!! Damn it!!!! I smell like crap!

*chambers banana into shotgun barrels*

Oh yeah, GoodFella, I think I forgot to mention my new invention....

Harovan · August 9, 2002, 03:31

No tomatoes here. I wait for you at the bar to have a <insert your favorite drink here>.

This constitution is waaays too long and complicated. I shudder only reading it. Mind you that English is not my native language, and even less this juridical gibberish. After all, this is a game and things don't need to be over-complicated. On the other hand, important features are missing. Still an official poll with only 1 yes vote counts as "approved" in a democracy with much more than 200 citizens. We need a census of active citizens.

A lot of work to do.

Donal Graeme · August 9, 2002, 11:43

What we need is a small, but very important Constitution that takes care of the most important issues: basically polls, positions, and a few procedures. The rest of management should be located in a Code of Laws.

Kramerman · August 9, 2002, 12:54

Quote:

What we need is a small, but very important Constitution that takes care of the most important issues: basically polls, positions, and a few procedures. The rest of management should be located in a Code of Laws.

The CoL basically does this already - though not as perfectly as would be needed by a real life fully-functioning society.

I really dont see any major problems with our present CoL for our demo game. Perhaps I am missing something? I think some people *cough* skywalker *cough* are just blowing things out of proportion. Our CoL lays out the fundemental guidelines of our government and how it should be run, and guidelines on how to amend these guidlines as change demands. The CoL is fairly simple and has worked well, in my opinion. This, I believe, is suitable for a mere game that we are playing. I mean if we were starting a country or something, I would see the need for a totally new constitution - but we are playing a game.

Kman

jdjdjd · August 9, 2002, 13:24

While you can create a more concise and pertinent document, it may never be anything but too long. The problem has been always that two many chefs spoil the broth.....to paraphrase John Adams...

One man can move mountains
Two men can work miracles
Three men, well three men is a congress, and God save us from that.

Overhauling the constitution will take time, lots of it. Or we can live with what we have, and change what needs changing. reduce the number of ministers. Amend polling rules. Add what is a quorum for something to pass as an amendment for elections and other polls.

It is long now, and this would make it longer, but if its properly formatted, then anything can be made easy enough to read or find what you need.

Just my opinion, I certainly praise anything that aids us in moving the game forward.

UnOrthOdOx · August 9, 2002, 13:33

Amen.

DAVOUT · August 9, 2002, 13:43

Quote:

Originally posted by carpathia
How about seven then; President, Vice president, two Justices, two ministers, and one appointed citizen. The public has to have a representative.

Seven is not exactly an even number

DAVOUT · August 9, 2002, 13:46

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

DAVOUT, still the fifth? I thought there was another after the war. Or was the pre war the fourth? Heh. I'm not the expert you would be. At any rate, they've done it a few times so there is precedent.

The fourth was after WWII ; the fifth was in 1958 made for De Gaulle, and still working.

wervdon · August 9, 2002, 14:59

I'm with you as long as the passage of the new constitution is done through an ammendment to the old. Something like this would do:

Ammendment #whatever
Ammendment on the retirement of the first republic of Apolytonia
This ammendment will retire this entire constitutional document upon passage of the new constitution of Apolytonia by not less than two-thirds votes from the citizens, 2/3 defined as those who vote not the entire census. If the new constitution should fail to pass, this ammendment will sunset immediately and this constitution will remain in effect.

----
Something like that should allow us to retire our original consitution and institute the new in a nice legal (non-bloody) way.