Neantherdals

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 03:38

What if they were around today? They weren't human but they were intelligent, sentient beings. Should we share the planet with them? Did they have souls? If you believe in God, did God see them in the same way as us? Or should we treat them like any other animal for us to dispose of as we wish? Would Neantherdal countries be possible? Did they exist?

Why did they die out? If our ancestors wiped them out, were they right to do so?

Urban Ranger · August 9, 2002, 03:42

Are you still at work Horse? It's almost 1700 where you are.

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 03:43

Yes of course - I work till 6 or 7pm each night

And I just got a bonus for my high performance

aaglo · August 9, 2002, 03:46

Neandertahls ARE humans. They roam the streets of Helsinki every day.

Sikander · August 9, 2002, 03:47

What's the state of the archeology today? I thought that there was still a debate about whether they were humans.

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 03:51

That's one theory but the latest thinking is they were a separate branch - same genus, common ancestor, different species.

Its been proven Neantherdals were around and co-existing with early humans up until pre modern times. Then they died out. Its a really interesting to think we once shared this planet with another humanoid species.

CyberGnu · August 9, 2002, 03:55

Oh, when I saw the title I thought you were referring to what your boys are going to be after you've put them through the all-male school

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 03:59

Come on, we have some brainy people posting but not answering the question.

Like, would a "final solution to the Neantherdal problem" be okay because they aren't human?

Would they have the same right to their own United Nations?

Sikander · August 9, 2002, 04:07

Considering that Russia and the U.S. only got rid of slavery 140 years ago I can't imagine that the Neanderthals would have been treated very well. Perhaps as well as slaves if they had managed to last until agriculture, but probably not even then.

Urban Ranger · August 9, 2002, 04:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Yes of course - I work till 6 or 7pm each night

And I just got a bonus for my high performance

Is there no justice? Man it's so easy to be an Aussie civil servant.

finbar · August 9, 2002, 04:12

I'd imagine George Witless Bush would add the Neanderthals to his Axis Of Evil on the basis that he wouldn't understand them, which appears to be the only prerequisite for making his list.

Harovan · August 9, 2002, 04:16

Thanks for mentioning George W. He's a living prove that Neandertals are still out there.

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 04:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Man it's so easy to be an Aussie civil servant.

How do you know?

One day I'm going to get a real sinecure

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 04:18

Of course the Netherlands deserve their own country. Have to allow some place for them to exist.

Come on! Be humane. Don't wipe out the Netherlands.

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 04:20

Imagine if it was the Palestinians versus the Neantherdals...........

.................

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 04:20

Oh, sorry. You meant 'Neandertals'

Sorry, sorry. Hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Hydey · August 9, 2002, 04:23

The best idea I have heard put forward is that rather than die out they were actually bred out. neandertals and early humans coexisted and infact bred together and through evolution the characteristics of the neandertals disappeared.

Alexander's Horse · August 9, 2002, 04:33

No, the latest theory is they were a separate species. They could not interbreed. They also had quite different social organisation, hunting and gathering patterns and lifestyles from early humans. For example humans migrated and followed the herds, Neanderthals were sedentary, they stayed in one place all year. Analysis of their skeletons indicates they may not have been able to talk the way humans do, but there is evidence of art and other higher forms of communication amongst Neanderthals.

They were also bigger and stronger than humans, had larger brains and its a big mystery why they died out.

Mythological stories about giants living in caves, which are evident for example in the bible and other early religious texts may actually refer to oral traditions about the time when humans and Neanderthals co-existed on the planet.

Hydey · August 9, 2002, 04:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
No, the latest theory is they were a separate species. They could not interbreed. They also had quite different social organisation, hunting and gathering patterns and lifestyles from early humans. For example humans migrated and followed the herds, Neanderthals were sedentary, they stayed in one place all year. Analysis of their skeletons indicates they may not have been able to talk the way humans do, but there is evidence of art and other higher forms of communication amongst Neanderthals.

They were also bigger and stronger than humans, had larger brains and its a big mystery why they died out.

Mythological stories about giants living in caves, which are evident for example in the bible and other early religious texts may actually refer to oral traditions about the time when humans and Neanderthals co-existed on the planet.

Sorry horse, i just phoned my brother in law who is a professor of archeology and he said the latest theory is that they were infact another species of human and they were bred out by evolution.

I will step away now and let you have your fun with the kiddies.

Ethelred · August 9, 2002, 04:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
That's one theory but the latest thinking is they were a separate branch - same genus, common ancestor, different species.

Still human though. Genus Homo. Just not Sapiens. Not as clever apparently despite having the same size brain to mass ratio. Larger in absolute terms. Slightly.

Quote:

Its been proven Neantherdals were around and co-existing with early humans up until pre modern times. Then they died out. Its a really interesting to think we once shared this planet with another humanoid species.

They shared the Earth for a long time. A shorter time in the same area though. They were the first human species to have a brain larger than 1200 cc and were around much longer than we Sapiens have been. Early Sapiens mostly used the same tools as Neanderthal although it seems likely to me that Sapiens had tools that have not been preserved that were specialized for their different lifestyle. Later Sapiens had developed more sophisticated blade technologly that produced more tools per unit of stone.

As for souls, if there are such things, I see no reason that Neanderthals shouldn't have had them. Then again I had an arguement with a nun in Catholic school over my pet dog having a soul. I disagreed then and still do. I am even more certain that siamese cats must have souls if men do. They are too aware of themselves. Chimps more so yet as well as at least some dolphin species. Some species of bird are exceedingly bright as well. Amazingly so considering their brain size.

notyoueither · August 9, 2002, 04:47

That's an interesting interpretation on oral traditions.

But, why couldn't they breed? Seems very close to me. Like horses/mules/etc...

Of course the product of that breeding may have been sterile. That in itself may have spelt the doom in a land swamped by homo sapiens.

ravagon · August 9, 2002, 04:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

They were also bigger and stronger than humans, had larger brains and its a big mystery why they died out.

I may have it wrong but I thought they were smaller, had far smaller brains and were wiped out by the Cro-magnons ...

Hydey · August 9, 2002, 04:53

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

I may have it wrong but I thought they were smaller, had far smaller brains and were wiped out by the Cro-magnons ...

Yes you have it wrong

Ethelred · August 9, 2002, 04:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey
neandertals and early humans coexisted and infact bred together and through evolution the characteristics of the neandertals disappeared.

There is no evidence to support this. It may be true but so far not one adult hybrid has ever been found and only one POSSIBLE hybrid child that died young. There is a bit of mDNA evidence from one Neanderthal and it showed indications that Sapiens and Neanderthal may not have been closely related. However equally ancient mDNA has been found in an Australian aborigine fossil and that too has been found to have a significantly larger than expected difference from modern Sapiens. So at present there is only speculation and what evidence there is fails to support the speculation.

Ethelred · August 9, 2002, 04:59

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

I may have it wrong but I thought they were smaller, had far smaller brains and were wiped out by the Cro-magnons ...

Shorter but more massive. Larger brains on average. 1350 cc for Sapiens and 1400 cc for Neanderthalensis. However since Neanderthal was more massive the brain to mass ratio was very close.

Kassiopeia · August 9, 2002, 05:02

Quote:

Originally posted by aaglo
Neandertahls ARE humans. They roam the streets of Helsinki every day.

And they post to Apolyton.

Hydey · August 9, 2002, 05:04

http://www.archaeology.org/0007/abst...andertals.html

Ethelred · August 9, 2002, 05:06

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

But, why couldn't they breed? Seems very close to me. Like horses/mules/etc...

They may simply have found each other unatractive. Maybe Neanderthal still went into heat for instance.

Heat loss is a major question. Why did it happen with humans and when did it happen? Before or after Sapiens? I think before but thats just a guess. However Sapiens have been in Australia for 60,000 years and are only 100,000 years old as a species. I am sure heat loss had to occur before Australia was colonized.

Hydey · August 9, 2002, 05:11

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/neandertal.htm

ravagon · August 9, 2002, 05:19

Quote:

I kept in mind Erik's cautionary remark in that first message: "unless I have made some silly mistake."

Seems remarkably well-grounded in reality ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/neandertal.htm

The things one comes across when gardening, eh...?