It finally happened!

alexman · August 9, 2002, 14:50

I have heard the stories.
I have read the formulas.
But I never thought it would happen to me!

The game was going very well. The goal was to win as fast as possible by culture (CF Tourney 2-2). We started in a small island and by 1000 A.D. had invaded Egypt's much larger continent and kicked Cleo out. In the process, we got a Great Leader.

What to do with him...

a FP right in the middle of the former Egyptian empire would be nice. We have twice as much culture, and their Palace is on another continent. Look! Byblos is just the right place...

Now we're talking. Our income is three or four times what it used to be. We're rushing temples, libraries, cathedrals everywhere. The goal is to win by culture, after all. The cities close to Byblos are even building Universities!

And then, IT happened. The unspeakable. The worst fear of every Civer. What the Coracles of the World feed upon...

What's left now is a big useless donut continent with a bunch of 1-shield cities around Byblos. And no more leaders to rebuild the palace, even if we break the peace treaty. (see picture).

The obvious moral of the story: NEVER build your FP in a conquered city with any kind of culture. The risk is too great. Raze and rebuild, or build the FP at home from scratch and rush the Palace in the foreign city instead.

Theseus · August 9, 2002, 14:56

That SUCKS!

How many Egyption nationals were there?

Bah, even then, that's just not right. The FP alone should be enough to prevent the flip.

Anyway, can't the FP be re-built?

Arrian · August 9, 2002, 14:58

Actually, the moral of the story is WIPE THEM OUT.

But allow me to express my heartfelt sympathy at the cruelty of that culture flip. That's brutal. And I've never had anything quite so devastating.

-Arrian

alexman · August 9, 2002, 15:04

Arrian, you're right. I thought about wiping them out, and I was going to do that as soon as the peace treaty expired. But I was half an age behind in tech, so I wanted to catch up. Also, the foothold in India's continent was a nice bonus from the peace treaty.

Theseus, the FP can be rebuilt, but there is no more leader to do it with. Byblos had about five Egyptian punks left.

Anyway, it's a good excuse to abandon the game. I didn't have time to finish it in time anyway.

Arrian · August 9, 2002, 15:13

Impressive conquest from that tiny island start, though.

I do think the FP should nullify the chances of CF, as it is supposedly a "second capitol" for your empire. But really, the error was leaving Egypt alive.

-Arrian

Theseus · August 9, 2002, 15:16

So you figured that because you had the FP, AND obviously there was no Egyptian incursion on your tiles, AND Cleo's Palace was now on another continent (fer Chrissake), AND Byblos is in the center of the continent and therefore un-attackable, that you could garrison with 1 or 0 troops.

I would have done the same...

Good lesson... those 5 Egyptians should have been garrisoned or poprushed out of existence.

Note to self: pay MUCH more attention to foreign nationals (or to total eradication).

Arrian · August 9, 2002, 15:24

I normally starve any captured AI towns down to size 3 or smaller (sometimes all the way to 1) if the civ will live on. In the ancient era, this isn't as important, but I almost always poprush a spearman, which normally drops any non-autorazed cities to size 1 anyway. Total eradication is necessary later in the game, when civs have built up more culture.

Anyway, this is a great cautionary tale. Don't play fast 'n loose with the FP!

-Arrian

alexman · August 9, 2002, 16:01

This is obviously an extreme example, and doesn't happen very often at all.

According to the culture-flip formula, the chance of Byblos flipping would be somehwere around 0.005% each turn. Over the course of 20 turns, the city would have a 99.9% chance of not flipping. Obviously, I was that 0.1%.

I'm a one-in-a-thousand case!

steven8r · August 9, 2002, 16:13

/Clinton voice: ON/
I feel your pain. I really do.
/Clinton voice: Off/

Seriously, I feel for you. That should never happen.

I learned from a previous campaign, that cities won't flip back, if their nation no longer exists. Take it back!!! Show 'em!!

Bambul · August 9, 2002, 20:00

So if you build a small wonder (like FP or IW) and the city it's in get captured, you can build the smal wonder again? I didn't know that.

Theseus · August 9, 2002, 20:05

I believe so...

Confirmation, anyone?

korn469 · August 9, 2002, 20:17

confirmed

when a city with a small wonder falls to the enemy (by force or culture flip) the lost small wonders become available in your build queue again

monkspider · August 9, 2002, 20:22

In cities where there is a bit of doubt regarding flipping, I like to starve them down a bit, sometimes all the way down to 1 citizen (I do so dislike that rather barbaric option of razing, so utterly boorish it is). Of course in this situation it was just case of horribly bad luck prevailing against you. Terribly sorry to hear it my friend!

Lord Merciless · August 9, 2002, 21:44

That's why I always put lots of effort in exterminating a civ. I have an almost paranoid fear of culture flippings.

alexman, have you thought about reloading?

alexman · August 9, 2002, 23:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
alexman, have you thought about reloading?

Alas, of all the games where this could happen, it had to happen in a Tournament game... it's against the rules to reload.

Fighter · August 10, 2002, 21:27

Say it with me now:

"Ethnic Cleansing"

Theseus · August 10, 2002, 21:54

Damn, that's harsh.

BUt in Civ3, utterly true. I've been paranoid lately, partly based upon alexman's extreme example.

Starve captured cities down to 1 pop; raze alternate cities; slam out Temples...

I'm still freaked out about a city with the FP flippin; that's just not right.

Bambul · August 11, 2002, 00:54

How true. I'm starting to empathise with Hitler. Scary thought...

jshelr · August 12, 2002, 10:38

Paranoia probably colors perceptions on this issue. But, just yesterday, having captured a small town early from Egypt, about a millenia later, after it had grown from one to five, it flipped. Egypt was just a rump civ by then. It was really insulting in a way. So, to make a short story shorter, I don't trust the flip formula. Replace everything.

Velociryx · August 12, 2002, 11:14

J00 juztz d1dnt roxxz th33 AI's enuffz, iz a11....

::smacks self in head::

er...sorry....I was having a moment....

-=Vel=-

Arrian · August 12, 2002, 11:17

Watch it, Vel, people might starting thinking 1337 IS your DL.

-Arrian

Velociryx · August 12, 2002, 11:36

D'oh! Didn't think of that...good point!

(as Vel vows to keep m0zt of tho53 moments to himself from now on!)

-=Vel=-

The diplomat · August 12, 2002, 18:52

You want to hear something just as bad?

In one game, I was losing badlly against the AI. I was down to about 5 cities and they have little or no defenders. I knew the AI would quickly wipe my civ off the map permanently. So, when to my great surprise, the AI sued for peace, I thought I just might survive after all. The only catch was the AI wanted Alexandria in exchange for peace. Alexandria was my second most powerful city, adjacent to my capital, size 11! Well, it was give the AI Alexandria or lose the game completely, so I surrendered Alexandria. (I was the game leader in culture, so since Alexandria was adjacent to my capital, I thought that I might just get lucky and get the city back through a well timed culture flip, and I would be saved)

A few turns later, I amassed a small but potent force of cavalry and decided to retake Alexandria. I successfully retook the city. I stationed all my troops there to quell the resistance.

I was successful in stopping the resistance, but a few turns later the city culture flipped to the AI!!!!!!!!

That is just wrong. It was my second city. It was adjacent to my capital. It had been part of the Egyptian empire (me) since the begining of the game, the equivalent of hundreds of turns. How could it culture flip to an enemy civ that had controlled it for barely 10 turns and lived all the way on the other side of the map?

I think I know the answer. Apparently, when you give a city through diplo, the population changes nationality. Thus, when I traded the city, the pop changed nationality, and so when I conquered it, I got resistance, because the pop was not egyptian anymore.

That is so wrong! If you trade a city, the pop should not change nationality! Their loyalty should remain with their former owners.

nbarclay · August 12, 2002, 20:27

Quote:

Originally posted by The diplomat
That is so wrong! If you trade a city, the pop should not change nationality! Their loyalty should remain with their former owners.

I agree that if the only reason a city is surrendered is a result of military extortion, it shouldn't instantly become loyal to its conquerer. It might be assimilated over time, but initially, its people shouldn't feel much better about their annexation than if they were conquered outright.

In contrast, a city that's already under strong cultural influence from another nation, and that is handed over willingly, could assimilate quite quickly. Similarly, a conquered city that's homeland no longer exists and that's given to another nation by its conquerer might be quite happy at shifting allegiances to a nation with less historical animosity.

Of course in game terms, the nationality change does serve a useful purpose in game terms in that it helps make sure the turning over of a city means something. Would your aggressive AI neighbors have accepted Alexandria as a price for peace if they expected to lose it back to culture flipping right away?

Nathan

Coracle · August 12, 2002, 21:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Fighter
Say it with me now:

"Ethnic Cleansing"

And THAT is the absurd flip side of this Culture Flipping garbage - genocide is encouraged.

The map above alone shows how ridiculous it is. Flipping basically destroyed hours of work in frustration and idiocy. It is not just that Firaxis dreamed it up it is that they implemented it in so many ridiculous ways because of no playtesting.

I will save your map for my archives!

OK, you've seen it in action ruin a game in which you were being logical and clever (supposedly).

Now, for "Ethnic Cleansing". . . the IRONY, as I have always said, is in a game that pushes this Politically Correct "Culture" crap at us, and tries to play down warfare (also wrong historically), the game nonetheless ENCOURAGES ETHNIC CLEANSING, MASS MURDER, and GENOCIDE, and fighting long wars on and on until the enemy has been exterminated. This is not only morally repugnant it is TEDIOUS.

"Razing" is as absurd as Flipping. A city of millions can instantly vanish leaving nothing but a grassland tile and all you need is one unit (even damaged) of any kind to do it?? Absurd.

So, you Culture Flipping characters, keep playing with it. And when YOUR game is also ruined, your time wasted, and your strategy made a mockery of - don't say I didn't warn you. Some of you will learn the hard way. But you will learn the UGLY TRUTHS about Culture Flipping cities and borders.

alexman · August 12, 2002, 21:12

What took you so long?

Coracle · August 12, 2002, 21:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
That's why I always put lots of effort in exterminating a civ. I have an almost paranoid fear of culture flippings. . .

What more need I say? Flipping is obviously killing not only the strategy and logic of your game by its absurd random specter hanging over us, it forces us into long tedious wars to exterminate our neighbors when we SHOULD be perhaps expanding in a different direction to obtain resources or to prevent a powerful rival from getting bigger.

IT SCREWS UP STRATEGY IN MANY WAYS, this Flipping baloney. It increases the tedium and length of games.

END THE FEAR!! Enjoy yourself. Use the Flipping OFF option with PTW, which I never would buy without it.
Be happy. As I was with Civ 2 (still on the Hard Drive; always will be).

Coracle · August 12, 2002, 21:24

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
What took you so long?

Lifting weights in the gym to ease the frustrations of Flipping.

It is so nice to see people getting screwed by Flipping. But you will learn, the hard way if needed.

You WILL all be happier after you've turned this crazy stuff OFF with PTW, if you get PTW. I may wait until it's going for ten bucks on E-Bay, but I suppose I'll get it. So long as I can kill Flipping and bury it deep with a stake through its heart.

Tuberski · August 12, 2002, 22:18

I can not wait until PTW comes out.

Then, at least, Coracle can complain about something different.

I agree with him, just tired of hearing it.

Coracle · August 12, 2002, 22:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski
I can not wait until PTW comes out.

Then, at least, Coracle can complain about something different.

I agree with him, just tired of hearing it.

Yep. We'll never have to hear about it again! Super!