More difficult is not more fun

David Murray · August 9, 2002, 15:24

I sincerely hope that, in the new Play the World add-on, some pressing issues will be resolved. Namely, the excruciating "gentleman's club" scenario whereby the computer opponents do their very best to deny research to the human - even if that means refusing peace when down to the last city and facing extinction - whilst spreading techs among themselves like nymphos spreading STDs. Some things can be lived with - esoteric and out-of-this-world-man things like culture flipping and Civ's incredibly realistic battle results. But being unable to keep up in tech without having to resort to extortion (which now doesn't even work with later techs I have found) and war is so incredibly annoying that the fun factor which has kept me up for nights on end playing this game is starting to drain.

I hope that Firaxis don't think that more difficult equals more fun, and I hope that the expansion pack doesn't go down this road with regards to tweaks to the single-player version. Because to be honest, I have found more frustration, caused by more difficulty and obtuse opponent logic, to equal less fun.

So I am going to put my playing on hold and hope for some improvements in Play the World. It would be good if someone who buys it could post a review and mention any changes to technology/AI for those who are undecided....

Please: fix the stupid state of affairs regarding technology. It really sucks and it is a serious DOWNER.

Theseus · August 9, 2002, 15:58

David,

How large is your civilization compared to all of the AI civs?

Also, what level are you playing at?

GhengisFarb™ · August 9, 2002, 16:07

At least with PTW you will have the choice of not playing with any AI and just play against other humans.

As for it losing its fun factor, the horrible side effect of my customized urban sprawl actually tuned out ot be fun. All those sneak attacks from AI units that I didn't see coming, etc changed my whole method of gameplay in Modern Times.

King of Rasslin · August 9, 2002, 16:26

The tech tree has gotten weird since the latest patch. The AI seems to share techs very freely and you have a very difficult time getting them. Try to just ignore techs that you simply do not need, like free artistry or a government type you don't use (like communism.)

I do agree that the AI needs to act more human when they are down to a few cities. When I demand a tech from a 1 city civ, he should definitely give it to me!

Arrian · August 9, 2002, 16:47

I haven't noticed the AI tech trading being bad at all. In fact, I think the 1.29 tech race is MUCH more enjoyable than 1.17 or 1.21. The pace is slower, and the AI does not whore tech for nothing anymore. Poor, backward civs w/o tradeable resources will stay poor and backward. They will not vault past you for 5g and their world map.

There still is an AI to AI trading discount. IIRC, it's 15% on Regent, 20% on Monarch, 25% on Emperor and 30% on Diety. I'm not sure about those numbers, though.

If you wish to change this, you can - via the editor. I take a different approach. I view the AI kinda like I view a natural resouce... they are there for my use. Their units train my units and provide me with great leaders. Their economies provide me with gold and technology. Their population provides me with labor.

-Arrian

Zachriel · August 9, 2002, 17:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I take a different approach. I view the AI kinda like I view a natural resouce... they are there for my use. Their units train my units and provide me with great leaders. Their economies provide me with gold and technology. Their population provides me with labor.

-Arrian

Spoken like a true imperialist. You know what they say. "The Sun never sets on Arrian's Empire."

GI Josh · August 9, 2002, 17:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

Spoken like a true imperialist. You know what they say. "The Sun never sets on Arrian's Empire."

Oh, but in MP it shall, it shall . . .

planetfall · August 9, 2002, 17:18

Rasslin & Arrian,

You both are right. Some techs like communism and free artistry are more highly valued in 1.29 than previous versions. But in general tech trading in 1.29 is more reasonable than previous versions. If you don't like the rate, adjust it to the level you want. This is a great option and allows much customization of game experiences. Sometimes it is fun to stay on the same level but just change the tech rate exchange rate to create a slightly different flavor to the game. King wants one squirt of cherry in his coke, but arrian doesn't care if it is one, two, or three squirts, just as long as he get the coke.

Theseus · August 9, 2002, 18:54

I think Arrian exhibits a morally justified sense of manifest destiny.

Coracle · August 9, 2002, 19:34

Quote:

Originally posted by David Murray
I sincerely hope that, in the new Play the World add-on, some pressing issues will be resolved. Namely, the excruciating "gentleman's club" scenario whereby the computer opponents do their very best to deny research to the human - even if that means refusing peace when down to the last city and facing extinction - whilst spreading techs among themselves. . . and war is so incredibly annoying that the fun factor which has kept me up for nights on end playing this game is starting to drain.

. . . I have found more frustration, caused by more difficulty and obtuse opponent logic, to equal less fun.

. . . Play the World. It would be good if someone who buys it could post a review and mention any changes to technology/AI for those who are undecided....

Please: fix the stupid state of affairs regarding technology. It really sucks and it is a serious DOWNER.

You are right on the nose with these complaints; I have been saying as much for months.

An AI civ often attacks me FOR NO VALID REASON, or refuses to make peace until almost exterminated, all to help its brother civs gain on the human. Another annoying, non-historical cheat.

There is a lot more frustration and a lot less fun with Civ 3 than Civ 2. And don't let the sycophants tell you "but you don't know how to play the game" or any other rubbish.

I will never buy PTW if they have not done something about various problems, especially flipping, and I will only pay attention to forum reviewers, not the Game Site reviewers who proved themselves to be Firaxis flacks last December.

So CAVEAT EMPTOR with PTW.

vondrack · August 9, 2002, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
An AI civ often attacks me FOR NO VALID REASON

Would you care to share the VALID REASONS that lead YOU to declare wars to AI civs?

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
There is a lot more frustration and a lot less fun with Civ 3 than Civ 2. And don't let the sycophants tell you "but you don't know how to play the game" or any other rubbish.

Strangely enough, you seem to still play this weird game...

Have a nice weekend,
vondrack, One of The Civ3 Sycophants

player1 · August 9, 2002, 20:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
There still is an AI to AI trading discount. IIRC, it's 15% on Regent, 20% on Monarch, 25% on Emperor and 30% on Diety. I'm not sure about those numbers, though.

As far as I know, that works this way:

If some AI can't pay full price to other AI, he sells him the tech with UP TO THAT vaule discount (that way he gains ALL extra money of other AI).
If that AI doesn't have even such kind of money, tech is not sold.

That's common tactic by human players too.

Better to get "almost" full price then nothing.

Lord Merciless · August 9, 2002, 21:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I take a different approach. I view the AI kinda like I view a natural resouce... they are there for my use. Their units train my units and provide me with great leaders. Their economies provide me with gold and technology. Their population provides me with labor.

-Arrian

That's what I'm doing, too. Besides, for AI Civs out of my "force projection range", I usually sell them techs and use that money to fund even more research by me.

There are a few techs the AI values very much and will only sell for an exorbitant price. They are Gunpowder, Nationalism, and Communism.

alva · August 9, 2002, 22:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I take a different approach. I view the AI kinda like I view a natural resouce... they are there for my use. Their units train my units and provide me with great leaders. Their economies provide me with gold and technology. Their population provides me with labor.

-Arrian

Please, don't ever run for president will you.