I can't believe this.. - Page 10

Zachriel · August 16, 2002, 17:41

Quote:

Originally posted by HappySunShine For three hours I played and everything was going great and then I declared war on the Russians. All they had was regular archers and spearmen, nothing special. Yet my veteran and alot of times elite knights would seemingly randomly die to them. Even attacking an archer with a defense of 1 would sometimes kill my knights. I attacked a warrior, just a regular warrior, with my elite knight and it DIED! But that's not even the worst case. The final stunt was when I attacked just a regular old spearman on a size 3 city and it took my army of 3 elite knights down to red without losing a single hitpoint. How ridiculous is that? And is the defense of 3 for knights correct or is that a typo? Every time an archer with an attack of 2 attacks a veteran knight, the knight loses majority of the time. Civilization 3 isn't a difficult game, the AI isn't any harder than it was in civ2. The simple fact is that the biggest part of the game has a major flaw in it. No game can survive in MP if it doesn't have some sort of consistency to its play, nor can it be called strategy when the outcome of battles are random. Is this going to be fixed in PTW?

You may want to study the Civ3 combat system in more detail. It is easily mastered, and some knowledge of how probability affects combat will be quite helpful in multiplayer games. I think if you try real hard, you can master it, then you'll be able to play with the better players.

Velociryx · August 16, 2002, 17:51

Hey Zach....wasn't he the guy who said that "playing and building up your empire for three hours and then attacking" wasn't strategy, or something?

Just...curious.

-=Vel=-

HappySunShine · August 16, 2002, 17:54

Yeah I was the one that said it and I'm right. Any rookie can build an empire. It's kind of why in civ2 all the rookies played deity because there was no rushing and no expansion. Just sitting there irrigating and building roads and temples does not take skill.

Velociryx · August 16, 2002, 18:02

Ahhh...I get you...so the three hours you mentioned in the game above was just a test then. An example of what NOT to do.

Congrats on the three rush designs, btw....I'll bet NONE of them have ever been discussed on the strat forums here....you know, since none of us have any real talent....

-=Vel=-

And you're right....shuffling all those units around on the map takes WORLDS of skill, what with all those complex supply lines and zones of control! It's MURDER! I forgot myself for a moment....

vondrack · August 16, 2002, 18:12

Vel, I just want to say for the record, how much I admire your patience! I have still much to learn... I would just blast away after two of the offending posts of this cocky SunnyBoy.

I just find it funny, HappySunShine, that you complain of a wrecked combat model, arguing that it makes your Civ2 rush strategies (or tactics, whatever it is...) unreliable. As if the strategy you're successfully using would be the measure of a good combat model. I have always thought it's different. First, there is a combat model. You master it and you become a master of this combat model. You mastered Civ2 combat model and apparently became a master of it. Hats off. * vondrack bows, but not too much *

But Civ3 uses a different combat model (and I am still neglecting the fact that Civ is not just about the combat model) that involves a little more bit of randomness. Thus, you will have yet to show if you can be as good a player as you're in Civ2. Simply because this is a new model, so who is the Master and who is the Loser is not yet clear. If you prove yourself a champion, great. Would that mean the combat model was... not wrecked? No! That would mean you're a master of this model, too. And if you fail? Would THAT mean the model was wrong? No! That would mean you're great in mastering one model, but not another.

AFAIK, ladder positions do not suffer from occasional strokes of bad luck, right? If you lose one game to a particularly nasty string of bad luck, well... there would still be many more games for you to prove it was just that - bad luck? Right?

Calling others rookies and lamers just because of their opinions is just showing off bad manners. This thread is a great example of why Vel has earned such a great respect here at 'Poly. Dunno how great an MP player he is. Dunno if all of his strategies are as great as they seem to be. But one thing is for sure. He is a great guy. Always polite, patient, and helpful.

HappySunShine... and what are you? Why should we care for what you say when you say it the way you do? You may be right in what you are saying about rushes. You may be right about various things. Know what? I will still not like you. I will still like Vel.

I guess one time you will find out that this principle works. Not only here in the forums. You may be successful. You may be #1 on the Civ2-3-... and ATP ladders. You may be the constant winner. You may wallow in money. And yet... you will lack friends. People who would like you because of what you are. Think of that.

Theseus · August 16, 2002, 18:26

EDITED BY MING...

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN INSULTS.

THE NEXT PERSON THAT CONTINUES THIS CRAP WILL NOT BE POSTING FOR A WHILE.

(this was being posted as I was making my post)

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

Ming · August 16, 2002, 18:30

And to think that this thread used to have some good discussion...

First... let's get back on topic and not have a debate on whether somebody will have friends or not...

But to answer your question vondrack so we can get this crap out of the way and get back to discussing the issues instead of people.

Who is Happy/Eyes?
Probably one of the finest Civ II MP players.
(God... I hate saying that Eyes

)

Why should we care what he thinks even with the way that he says it.?
If you ignore his insulting ways, he has provided a lot of keen insights into MP strategy and play. He does know what he is talking about. Agree or not, he knows the "MP Enviornment/Dynamics"...

As far as him calling everybody rookies and his overall condensending attitude... you just don't know him very well. He's been calling all of us that for years. We've learned to ignore the chest beating and instead, listen to the good things he has to say. While I don't always agree with him, I do care what he has say.

SO NOW... CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

Theseus · August 16, 2002, 18:41

Fine, Ming. Nice catch, btw, that was within minutes. And while I don;t think I went overboard, it's absolutely your call.

And you're right, if he's got valuable contributions to make, I want to hear them.

However, if you're going to protect his right to chest-beat, insult, curse, etc., you should provide fair warning when he shows up in threads where people don;t know him.

Just so I know, can you PM or email me with what specifically caused the deletion? Thanks.

Capt Dizle · August 16, 2002, 19:24

Would be funny if it turns out that the rush don't work so good, eh?

I would only play this guy for money and then only with judges present. One "would it really be cheating" line is enough to wise me up.

This guy is like a lot of folks hustling pool or cards. It's all a front, underneath he is probably a sweetheart of a guy.

Ming · August 16, 2002, 19:26

He can chest beat all he wants... not against the rules..
Cursing... Not allowed...
Calling people rookies... get a thicker skin...
Real Insults... While we allow mild flaming, personal insults aren't allowed.

As far as protecting him... I've restricted him many times in the past for similar behavior, so I laugh at the thought of me proctecting him

Now... Are we all clear on this matter!

So let's continue the discussion on the game... and not the people.

SpencerH · August 16, 2002, 19:27

So a buddy of yours can incite what he wants.. merde.

Ming · August 16, 2002, 19:31

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
So a buddy of yours can incite what he wants.. merde.

I will ASSUME that this is a cross post, and that you hadn't had a chance to read my post... because the next person that continues this will be toast.

And you can ask "my buddy" if I'm really his buddy. Read my above comments about my restricting him often

Coracle · August 16, 2002, 20:03

Is it permissible to say "merde" in here?? A French scatological curse!

Tuberski · August 16, 2002, 20:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Is it permissible to say "merde" in here?? A French scatological curse!

It got past the censors, that is usually all it takes.....

SpencerH · August 16, 2002, 20:42

Swearing is the fun part of speaking more than one language

Ming · August 16, 2002, 20:46

Some really interesting "on topic" posts...

Jon Shafer · August 16, 2002, 20:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
And to think that this thread used to have some good discussion...

You ever thought that? Wow, you're losing your touch Ming.

HappySunShine, why is it that you think that playing the game as it was made to be played is a 'rookie tactic'? Is anything that takes advantage of the game's lack of balance really necassary to be an 'elite' player? Do you value any real strategy, instead of a linear tried and true system? Do you really garner so much pleasure from exploiting a fairly broken system, then criticizing everyone else because they don't do the same?

*Trip waits for more comments about being a whining rookie

You think at least he would have a bit of creativity in his insults, for being such a god-like being.

Velociryx · August 16, 2002, 20:58

Vondrack - Thank you! Some days, it's harder than it looks....*sigh*

Ming - Bear with me brother, this post is entirely on-topic and not a personal attack at all. Given your earlier comment, I wanted to say that explicitly.

Sunshine - I'm gonna be honest with you here, cos I'm, by nature, an honest fellow. My apologies in advance if some of this stuff isn't what you wanna hear, or if it bruises your ego, but it's stuff you really oughta know (some of it, in fact, you should already know, being a bright--if somewhat chaffing and angst filled--young man of twenty).

First off, get it straight. God, you're not. Or, in the Southern vernacular, you ain't it, kiddero. Sorry. I dunno much about your past history, but its clear from your win record in MP that you've got talent. That's a good thing, but let's put it in perspective, shall we?

In case you've forgotten, Civ is a GAME! To borrow a phrase from you, "always has been, always will be."

As such, it doesn't matter to me that you have good ideas and a deep understanding of MP dynamics or not. It doesn't matter to me if you've been scrupulously honest for most of your gaming "career" or not. That you have been accused of, admitted to, and apparently (only surface research here, btw) proved of cheating at ANY point in your gaming "career" TOTALLY blows every ounce of credibility you might have had where I'm concerned.

It's one thing to reload or whatever in SP. If you like cheating at Solitaire and then patting yourself on the back for a stellar win, that's your bag. But to do so in an MP setting just shatters credibility IMO. I specifically DO NOT bring this up to make a personal attack, but to point out to you in terms just as clear as I can possibly make them why you have credibility problems. It's the abovementioned, coupled with your abrasive (to use a non-censored word) attitude.

On a scale of 1-10, civ's combat model has a difficulty rating of MAYBE 2.5, when compared to....pretty much anything in the wargame genre. So....mastery at the rush game in Civ is HARDLY a crowning achievement if you talk to anybody who's ever played anything besides Civ-style games. Play People's General, when you get some time. It's a really good "entry-level" wargame that'll give you a solid idea of what I'm talking about. The combat model in PG blows the doors off Civ's in terms of robustness and complexity (and it's just an "entry level" wargame). Win a few 6:1 odds scenarios as the Americans vs. the Chinese onslaught and you'll be off to a reasonably good start. Till then, you're all smoke and mirrors, pal.

So you're good at the rush game in Civ2. And that makes you God because???

There's about as much skill involved in the rush mechanics in a game with no supply lines, no disruption, no increasing support costs, etc. etc. as there is to (borrowing another little snippet from you) popping blackheads. If you need to feed your ego, you could do a good deal better than that.

I'm also gonna take the opportunity to tell you a few things I KNOW you don't know.

I know you don't know them because IF you knew them, your behavior would be different than it is now. Oh sure, I can predict with almost absolute certainty that you're gonna reply to this note that you DO, in fact know all about the things I'm getting ready to tell you (or even that the things I'm about to tell you are utter nonsense), but deep down, you'll know it's not true.

You'll know, and I'll know.

These are small things, but I believe that if you give them some thought, you will find that you agree with them.

1) Strategy serves no one. Fans of, practicioners of, devotees of strategy serve IT. Strategy was here a long time before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye, and it'll be here long after you are dust.

2) Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is either strategic or tactical, in one form or another. You didn't realize until reading these words, but THIS....our ongoing conversation on this very forum is a lesson in strategy. You've been daydreaming and not paying attention through the bulk of it....one of the reasons you didn't realize till just now.

3) The ultimate expression of strategy is....NOTHING! Sun Tzu knew that, and in case you didn't realize it, he's your better. The best battle is the battle that is never fought. The ultimate expression of strategy is not to fight at all. EVER. How's that line up with your little Rush-O-Meter?

4) Poetry trumps strategy, every time. EVERY single time. If there is strategy inherent in all that we do, then it is there for some larger purpose. Poetry, in this case then, is not (necessarily, though it certainly can be) taken literally, but is a word used to express the amalgamation of all that is good in life. The reason that strategy exists in every fiber of every thing is to keep it safe, so that we may enjoy it. Practitioners of Strategy then, are the guardians of all the good things in life. Doesn't matter if you're playing a game or doing it for real in the Persian Gulf or anywhere else. Strategy guards the gate of all that's good. If you never allow yourself to forget that....if you approach life (and your gaming) with that in mind, then everything about your strategic thinking will improve tenfold, and you will find that your achievements and stories are enduring.

I'll give you two examples at opposite ends of the spectrum:

1) The Huns. Fierce warriors. Awesome fighters, and, one of the better examples I can think of in the real world to parallel your rush game. Lightning fast and brutal. And where are they now?

I'll tell you where. They were ushered off the world stage by their betters.

They are no more.

2) The Scots. Now, taken as a population, the Scots are NOBODY! (no offense intended to the fine and noble Scots!) They don't represent a significant portion of the global population, and they never had a globe-spanning empire, but we remember them, and their stories are woven into a great many areas of our (western) history.

Why?

Because they had heart. They had soul. They were the underdogs in a fight they should not have won. They, a rag-tag collection of ill-armed peasants stood toe to toe with one of the mightiest armies in all of Europe....and they won. They won on account of luck, and skill....and heart. Poetry.

You can laugh at that all you want, but I promise you that if you look around you, you'll find a LOT more Scottish influence in the world than Hunnish(?).

Of course, you can also freely ignore every word I have written here in this long and rambling post. I've been told I don't much know what I'm talking about....

Respectfully,
-=Vel=-

PS: Since Civ3MP is not out yet, I think it'd be safe to classify you as a Rookie too....yes?

Ming · August 16, 2002, 20:59

I guess some people really do want a restriction

Jon Shafer · August 16, 2002, 21:05

I was going to say the same thing Vel, but I thought it was a given

(about the post being on-topic and free of insults).

C'mon Ming, the subject of this thread is Civ 3 strategy (errr... something like that... he started the thing, don't ask me

), and I didn't insult him at all. I just asked him to reply to his thoughts on strategy. If he wants to play the game, then I'll do it to. He just needs a thicker skin, right?

vondrack · August 16, 2002, 21:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Some really interesting "on topic" posts...

Ming, would you remind us what the topic was...?

This thread got so long and excited that most of us have probably forgotten...

Sure, kidding, but... I have just re-read the first post and frankly, I couldn't find too much merit in there. If it was not Happy/Eyes who posted it, you would probably agree it's just another dose of whining inspired by unfavorable dice rolls, wouldn't you?

There were many fine counter-arguments given, but Happy responded mostly with derogatory comments about rookies, incompetent strategists etc. The real arguments were pretty soon used up, so the flame war was the only thing keeping this thread so much alive...

Sure, we were all wasting time, so it's okay you stepped in. But I guess it is rather difficult to add anything "on topic" that was not already said. What about closing the thread instead? I'd think it would be better now.

---

Hmph... just previewed my post and noticed Vel's new post. I am glad the thread was not closed before Vel posted. Not because of your thanks, Vel...

but because of it was nice reading. Poetry? Is that the word you used? Yep... your posts sound like poetry to me sometimes...

Ming · August 16, 2002, 21:24

I see two people who are asking for a restriction... does anybody else wish to join them?

Velociryx · August 16, 2002, 21:35

Thanks again for the kind words, Vondrack!

Actually yes....in my downtime (a rare, and wonderful thing these days), I *do* dabble a bit in poetry....posted a couple of my collections a LOOOONG time ago in SMAC fiction, of all places....made me smile that it was well-received there.

*fond memories of SMAC-filled days*

But....to remain on topic....yes! Strategy in Civ3. Despite some claims to be found here, there are a number of sharp minds posting and thinking about strategic issues in Civ3. It's true, Civ3 is a flawed gem of a game, and there are limitations on how far we can take an exploration of strategy, but within those bounds, there's quite a lot that can be said, and quite a lot that can be learned.....

-=Vel=-

Theseus · August 16, 2002, 21:41

First, I want to echo vondrack, that was Vel at his most elegant... "poetry trumps strategy" might have been said by a Churchill, or a Jefferson (re gameplay... I am staying away from all personal interactions).

Second, I do have a comment OT.

Although I've been a Civ fan since Empire, I've never played MP. This discussion (!) inspired me to check out the Civ2-MP forum... man, I do have to admit it's a different world!

Specifically, HSS is busting on the Civ3 combat system in the context of MP... as opposed to SP, vondrack, and he's right, that is a fairly new subject.

I'm definitely a 'rookie' on this subject, but I get the sense that the problem is in duels, rather than full-blown, more than 2-player MP.

HSS, I think I get it, but if you look back at the SP threads on this issue (combat model), and you can accept that this is just the way it's gonna be, then I would suggest that you adopt the attitude that many of us have... Firaxis introduced uncertainty to incorporate the 'fog of war.' It's nothing more than that, and the player, whether in MP or SP, needs to consider such in devising strategy. The simplest change is clearly using more units... but I would expect that MP players of high caliber will come up with even better strats.

Yup, Civ3 presents some changes... I expect the best of us all, whether 2 or 3, whether SP or MP, to roll with it, and apply our skills to mastering the evolution of the game.

I look forward to Civ3-MP... I fully expect to get my head cut off at first, but I hope I can improvise, adapt, and overcome. I saw on one of the Civ2-MP threads that the ultimate goal is to be a master of all variations... when the time comes, that's where I will strive, accepting the framework of the game.

Capt Dizle · August 16, 2002, 21:52

God, Vel, you just dissed Hungary.

Jon Shafer · August 16, 2002, 21:58

Actually, the only Hun influence over Hungary is the name.

Hungary was initially settled by Romans and Germans, later by Moravians, followed by the Magyar tribe (Finno-Ugric). Though the Huns did occupy the area for a while in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, they were expelled by the Germans shortly thereafter, and then mainly slavic tribes after that.

Capt Dizle · August 16, 2002, 22:06

I should play more EU and I would know stuff like that.

Jon Shafer · August 16, 2002, 22:08

Ahhh, beautiful EU.

To know that stuff it also helps being a history major.

Velociryx · August 16, 2002, 22:11

EU! A simply *exquisite* game! Civ would go far in taming the rush beast if they but made use of the "badboy" rating....of course, this would require more civs on the table to work well.....

And the event engine! OMG that just rules! Nothing like thinking you've got everything under control, only to have your nagging nobles come to you demanding more rights....Ahhhh, but it's GOOD to be da King!

-=Vel=-

Jon Shafer · August 16, 2002, 22:13

And in EU you can't just 'rush' in MP.

Well you can, but you'll lose miserably.