The Korean Civilization II

[Q Classic]

the old thread, weighing in at over 750 replies, was getting a bit slow.

here's the new thread, continue discussion here.

i will post a summary of the old one some time soon.

[Lord Merciless]

I think KoR has been terribly brainwashed by the TVs.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I think KoR has been terribly brainwashed by the TVs.

Maybe the wrong TV, a few of the channels actually put out decent information if you bother to view the programs with a little common sense. The Discovery Channel and the History Channel continually have programs that I learn something from. Course some of it pretty wrong, too.

[King of Rasslin]

I watch the History Channel, and they only talk about modern wars and European history. Sometimes they talk about Eygpt or Greece/Rome, and other classic civilizations. I have never seen a History Channel program about Asian history...

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Ghengis, do you honestly think that SILK can stop an arrow but iron isn't effective? Silk is very soft and only ladies like to wear it. Soldiers don't wear silk, they wear leather. Silk is not suited for combat.

Do you read posts before you reply to them? I said they wore it under their armor. And yes it is a VERY strong fiber. I also said that the arrow would penetrate the skin but the silk provided a barrier between the arrowhead and the body hindering the effects of poisoned arrows.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin And the Bessemer process supplied the steel needed to make railroads. India didn't make steel, we did! India has had very few wars because they are Hindu and they hate war. I saw a show about this Hindu guy that tied himself to a tree for a few decades to achieve enlightenment. They are very peaceful, and this is reflected well in Civ 3. They had no need for steel.

Bangs head against wall I won't even try............

Originally posted by King of Rasslin Our government gave the best equipment to our soldiers, but it was inexperience that killed a lot of our guys. The Vietcong was poorly equipped, and their cheap gear often caused them to die. It's a totally opposite problem for both sides.

My bad, I thought you were from the US. The United States equips its soldiers with the cheapest produced products it can find. I know, I've had to use those products. American soldiers spend 10-25% of their paycheck buying decent equipment and leave the cheap issued crap at home.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin And I don't like how you claim that swordsmen were more "elite" than musketmen. You often refer to musketmen as "the masses", and that implies that the British, French, and Germans fought with numbers like the Asians do.

Fact: Musketmen were the most untrained and easily equiped soldiers available. They were trained how to not kill themselves with their own gun. The Musketeers
were ELITE SWORDSMEN who also carried firearms for a quick attack and continued the bulk of the battle with blade.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin We do not, and we care more for our lives than to send wave after wave of humanity to crush the enemy. Read about Pork Chop Hill or Hamburger Hill and tell me that they really care about their soldiers.

Let's see Pork Chop Hill and Hamburger Hill got there names because of the mass of AMERICAN soldiers sent up them to overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers..........

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
I watch the History Channel, and they only talk about modern wars and European history. Sometimes they talk about Eygpt or Greece/Rome, and other classic civilizations. I have never seen a History Channel program about Asian history...

The Learning Channel and The Discovery Channel tend to show more programs on Afica and Asia.

[molly bloom]

It's always good to see a vigorous wide ranging discussion; yes, the Mongols wore silk undershirts in order to make pulling out arrows easier- this in an age where a killing blow might frequently be a relatively minor arrow wound resulting in septicaemia and painful death, all for want of being able to take out an arrow head from a small wound.

Armour of various kinds can stop various projectiles- the cotton wadded armour of the Incas frquently stopped musket balls (and the Spanish adopted it in order to deal with the deadly stone shot of the Incan slingshots).

You might also refer to the lacquered layered armour (non-ferrous) of Japan and China...

The Mongols never defeated the Romans; neither did the Chinese, although it is said that there was a meeting in Central Asia between a Chinese scouting party and a Roman scouting party.

Steel was being produced in various forms in various places before Bessemer's day:

http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/matwi...ent_world.html

hence Toledo blades and Damascene steel.

As for the French and British and German using massed numbers- well, heard of WWI by any chance?

[Q Classic]

And the Bessemer process supplied the steel needed to make railroads. India didn't make steel, we did! India has had very few wars because they are Hindu and they hate war. I saw a show about this Hindu guy that tied himself to a tree for a few decades to achieve enlightenment. They are very peaceful, and this is reflected well in Civ 3. They had no need for steel.

obviously spoken by a man with no knowledge about indian history.
actually, if you want to look at it, the mogul and mughal empires were primarily hindu, and primarily military. one of them even defeated the mongol hordes, not by peace, but by steel.
furthermore, throughout history, hinduism has not entirely been about peace. the goddess kali, for example, is a hindu deity, but she is the one who destroys-- human sacrifices have been (and still are) given to her.

[Ribannah]

It is Buddhism rather than Hinduism that promotes peaceful thoughts.

Molly, did you know that there is a small region in China with
people of European origin?
They are believed to be the remnants of a Roman army that fled some battlefield in Persia.
There was trade between Rome and China, but never war.

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
I watch the History Channel, and they only talk about modern wars and European history. Sometimes they talk about Eygpt or Greece/Rome, and other classic civilizations. I have never seen a History Channel program about Asian history...

The chinese are quite popular I think.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Ribannah
It is Buddhism rather than Hinduism that promotes peaceful thoughts.

Molly, did you know that there is a small region in China with
people of European origin?
They are believed to be the remnants of a Roman army that fled some battlefield in Persia.
There was trade between Rome and China, but never war.

Do you have any more info/links on that? That sounds interesting.

[King of Rasslin]

How can an arrow pierce the skin, but the silk make a barrier between the head and the skin? And if the arrow does pierce, the poison will definitely take effect. How does the silk prevent that? And the arrow will go in deep, and will be hard to pull out anyway. The difficulty of removing it is the same if it goes in the same depth, and I doubt that such a soft fibre could significantly stop it.

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year on new, high tech gear. There is nothing cheap about the US Army. They are better equipped than any other army, and none of their gear is low quality.

The musketeers were disbanded because they were inferior to standard musketmen. If they were better, they would have been kept. You are better off reloading your musket instead of trying to stab someone. Besides, why would you need musketeers when bayonettes came about?

We lost a lot of men taking the hills, but it was defending the hills that displayed the Asian swarm tactic. After the first losses, we didn't lose so many people because we had a defensive position. However, they outnumbered us, as usual.

WWI was different. After a few disasters, the soldiers quickly learned not to commit suicide in mass charges. Artillery became the focus of the war after they learned their lesson very quickly. Us Americans would never be that stupid!

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
How can an arrow pierce the skin, but the silk make a barrier between the head and the skin?

Silk is MUCH stronger than human skin, haven't you ever fallen down and skinned your knee withour tearing a hole in your jeans?

Originally posted by King of Rasslin We spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year on new, high tech gear. There is nothing cheap about the US Army. They are better equipped than any other army, and none of their gear is low quality.

Lots of our gear is very low quality. Have you served in the US Army? I have, and while some of it is very ingenius, the ingenious stuff typically gets replaced with inferior crap because some substandard manufacturer offered a lower bid. Did you know the Kevlar helmet they wear isn't even bullet proof?

The hundreds of billions of dollars isn't spent on equipment. It's spent on salaries, training, maintenance, and construction. Our soldiers live in roach infested barraks and military housing with holes in their roofs.

The core American soldier's pay is below poverty level and if a soldier is married and has children that family will be qualified for every government assistance program there is, simply because they will be that bad off. For Thanksgiving and Christmas, community service organizations collect money to give stipends for American soldiers with families to buy food for holiday dinner. Do NOT even talk about how "well off" our soldiers are until you have been there and seen how conditions.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin

How can an arrow pierce the skin, but the silk make a barrier between the head and the skin? .... and I doubt that such a soft fibre could significantly stop it.

WWI was different. After a few disasters, the soldiers quickly learned not to commit suicide in mass charges. Artillery became the focus of the war after they learned their lesson very quickly. Us Americans would never be that stupid!

Oh dear. The point of the silk is that it provides a barrier between the wound and the arrow- not that it acts as plate steel. The ' soft' material is actually quite strong (you might care to ask why scientists are trying to incorporate a spider gene in goats in order to be able to make super tough fabrics- it has modern battlefield applications, amongst other things) and FLEXIBLE. It yields, while the less elastic skin tears. Quite simple when you think about it...

As for WWI- well, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Take for instance the Flanders offensive of June-December 1917: the Allied line moved forward 5 miles, costing 35 thousand British and 35 thousand German dead, the British capturing 25 thousand German prisoners.

The last Russian military offensive launched by Brusilov on 4 June 1916 lasted for three months, taking four hundred thousand prisoners, but failing to achieve its objectives of reaching Lublin and Lemberg.

The German advance of March-July 1918 caused 8 hundred thousand German casualties, simultaneously depressing and exhausting the German troops, as the key objectives of Ypres, Arras. Amiens and Reims eluded them. Allied casualties were almost as numerous, but because the line was held, and there was a promise of fresh troops, morale was higher.

At one battle, the Battle of the Lys, in April 1918, 20 thousand Allied troops were killed and 80 thousand injured.

Now if you think that these deaths were primarily caused by artillery- think again.

[King of Rasslin]

The cheap kevlar is used to stop shrapnel. Body armor is too cumbersome, and you need agility more than bulk in today's wars. In the middle ages, it was the opposite. You wanted tough, bulky armor and you didn't want the wimpy stuff. Silk is so soft and delicate. Are you talking about some rare silk that only the Mongols had? All of the silk I see is in lady's clothes. I still find it hard to believe that silk could prevent injury. Leather is a lot better in protecting skin.

Soldiers are not meant to make careers of their service. They are given 50k for college, and can come back as an officer! Sounds good to me.

I can actually see spider silk being used, because it is incredibly strong for something so thin and light. But silk from silk worms? Nah...

[King of Rasslin]

On topic with Korea. Do they use forks or do they still use chop-sticks? I think it would be difficult eating kimchee soup without silverware!

Does this "substance" known as kimchee have a lot of alcohol in it? They bury it in the ground and let it decay for several months before digging it back up. Gross.

[Q Classic]

How can an arrow pierce the skin, but the silk make a barrier between the head and the skin? And if the arrow does pierce, the poison will definitely take effect. How does the silk prevent that? And the arrow will go in deep, and will be hard to pull out anyway. The difficulty of removing it is the same if it goes in the same depth, and I doubt that such a soft fibre could significantly stop it.

as they said earlier, the point of silk is to prevent the arrow from releasing poison. you seem to be unaware of the fact that silk has an extraordnarily high tensile strength-- which means it requires a great deal of lateral force before the thread breaks. an arrow does not provide enough lateral force.

I can actually see spider silk being used, because it is incredibly strong for something so thin and light. But silk from silk worms? Nah...

why? it's pretty much the same stuff, the same proteins. furthermore, you can harvest silk-- there are silk ropes that are made that are quite strong, in case you aren't aware of them.

On topic with Korea. Do they use forks or do they still use chop-sticks? I think it would be difficult eating kimchee soup without silverware!

not too quick on the uptake, are you? no, koreans have chopsticks and spoons. all you need to eat a meal. why do you need a fork and knife when a chopstick can tear/cut, pick up, and hold food?

Does this "substance" known as kimchee have a lot of alcohol in it? They bury it in the ground and let it decay for several months before digging it back up. Gross.

fermented cabbages have very little alcohol in it. the burying in the ground is not to let it decay, but to let it preserve and ferment-- in essence, pickling the vegetables.
it's not gross. you could conceivably say that sauerkraut and relish are just as gross.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
The cheap kevlar is used to stop shrapnel. Body armor is too cumbersome, and you need agility more than bulk in today's wars. In the middle ages, it was the opposite. You wanted tough, bulky armor and you didn't want the wimpy stuff. Silk is so soft and delicate. Are you talking about some rare silk that only the Mongols had? All of the silk I see is in lady's clothes. I still find it hard to believe that silk could prevent injury. Leather is a lot better in protecting skin..

The actual TRUE story on the Kevlar: It was chosen over the metal helmet because it weighs more. The metal helmet offered more protection but the committe decided to go with the Kevlar because they felt the extra weight would make the soldiers feel safer.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Soldiers are not meant to make careers of their service.

Oh great, so our 5 star generals will be the ones who signed up for the 4 year enlistment because they'll have seniority. Just like that soldier MTV interviewed in Saudi: "Hey, I didn't join the military to defend my country, I just joined so I could get a free ride to college. If they want to send me to combat the deals off."

This is pretty much how most civilians view the military, heck I had a inaccurate view before I went in too, but at least I had respect for anyone who was prepared to give their life for their country. Nowadays most civilians just view the military as a useless joke.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
fermented cabbages have very little alcohol in it. the burying in the ground is not to let it decay, but to let it preserve and ferment-- in essence, pickling the vegetables.
it's not gross. you could conceivably say that sauerkraut and relish are just as gross.

Okay, I'm breaking ranks on this one. I've had many friends who CLAIM to like kimchee, but that stuff smells BAD! And I DO say that sauerkraut and relish are almost as gross.

[eNo]

This has been one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time.

It's always good to see a vigorous wide ranging discussion; yes, the Mongols wore silk undershirts in order to make pulling out arrows easier- this in an age where a killing blow might frequently be a relatively minor arrow wound resulting in septicaemia and painful death, all for want of being able to take out an arrow head from a small wound.

I'm also under the impression that the silk cloth kept the barbs on the arrow from catching, so the danger of tearing the flesh as you removed the arrow was lessoned as well.

Ah hello Q Cubed. Nice to see somebody from the pre-SMAC days again.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Silk is so soft and delicate. Are you talking about some rare silk that only the Mongols had? All of the silk I see is in lady's clothes. I still find it hard to believe that silk could prevent injury. Leather is a lot better in protecting skin.

I can actually see spider silk being used, because it is incredibly strong for something so thin and light. But silk from silk worms? Nah...

Jeez Louise. Is my English bad? The point of the silk was not simply to prevent the arrow penetrating flesh, but to prevent it causing the damage I outlined- this in an age before the antiseptics and antibiotics that so many people take for granted. You have to bear in mind that the Mongols wore sheepskins and lacquered leather body armour too, the silk was worn as well, not instead of the other armour. If you think silk or other substances are so soft and brittle then you are very much mistaken- in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri for instance, one advance is silk steel- scientists (and industrialists, and no doubt militarists) would love to have material with the tensile strength of silk.

You were also wrong about India, by the way; the pacifist religions were/are Jainism and Buddhism. The Hindu belief system includes a specific warrior caste, and if you had read or seen a dramatization of the Mahabharata, you would know that at the heart of this Hindu epic is an armed conflict . Besides, which, you also have the martial Rajputs, Mahrattas and Sikhs, who were so good at fighting that the British were happy to include them in their army once peace was achieved:

Kshatriya

In Hindu India, the second-highest of the four varnas, or social classes, traditionally the military or ruling class. In ancient times before the caste system was completely defined, they were considered first in rank, placed higher than the Brahmans or priestly class. The legend that they were degraded by an incarnation of Vishnu as a punishment for their tyranny may reflect a historical struggle for supremacy between priests and rulers. In modern times the Kshatriya varna includes members from a variety of castes, united by their status in government or the military or their land ownership.

and as for Mongol military equipment:

The Mongol warrior used to wear Chinese silk underwear, if it could be obtained. One would not normally consider underwear to be military equipment, but the fact is that silk is a very tough substance. If arrows are shot from a long distance, they will not easily penetrate the silk. Even if an arrow penetrates the human skin, the silk may hold, so that the arrow can be drawn out from the wound by pulling the silk around. This would also prevent poison from entering the bloodstream. Outside the normal clothes, the warrior carried a protective shield of light yet effective leather armor, which was impregnated with a lacquer-like substance in order make it more impervious to penetration by arrows, swords and knives, and also to protect it against humid weather. Their horses often also carried this type of leather armor. The horses also had saddles with stirrups, because this was necessary in order to carry all the equipment and to fight from the saddle. Mongol warriors also wore helmets, the upper part of which was made of metal, the parts covering the ears and neck were in leather.

Because the winter temperatures in Siberia and Mongolia can drop down to 60 Celsius degrees below zero, proper clothing was imperative. Thus the Mongols used heavy leather boots with felt socks on their feet. During winter they wore on their bodies several layers of wool. On the outside they typically had a covering coat of fur or sheepskin, and a fur hat with ear flaps over the helmet.

The legs were often protected by overlapping iron plates resembling fish scales, which were sewn into the boots. Each warrior carried a battle axe, a curved sword known as scimitar; a lance, and two versions of their most famous weapon: The Mongol recurved bow. One of the bows was light and could be fired rapidly from horseback, the other one was heavier and designed for long-range use from a ground position. This heavy bow had an average draw weight of 166 pounds, according to George Vernadsky much more than the strongest contemporary European bow, the English longbow. It was not until the invention of breech-load rifles in the 1860s that the world saw a small weapon which had more power than the bow of the Chingis-Khanite Mongols. As could be expected, the troops had several quivers each. Some were filled with arrows suitable for use against warriors and horses at closer ranges, while another quiver held arrows for penetration of armor or for long-range shots. Each rider had a sharpening stone for keeping the metal arms in top shape. Since self-sufficiency was the order of the day, in addition to the indispensable knife an awl, needle and thread were carried by each rider, to enable quick and effective repair of almost any type of equipment in the field.

In addition to the light weaponry described above, after the advent of Chingis they built up a light artillery equipped with javelin-throwers and catapults of different kinds, which might be loaded on a two-wheeled wagon, called a kibitka. These advanced weapons were the inventions of Chinese engineers who were enlisted in Chingis Khan's service.

The principle of independence and self-sufficiency, so important to the Siberian Mongols, applied as far as possible even to the individual warriors. Every warrior was equipped with a full set of tools and spare parts: a lasso, a kettle, a bony needle and sinews. In addition to this he carried a waterproof leather bag which kept the clothing dry, and which would be used like a swimming belt during the crossing of great rivers. They then tied all their equipment to the horses and swam together with the animals. For food, the warriors also carried a ration of dried meat, as well as fermented and/or dried milk. When need arose, the riders would open the jugular veins of the horse, and drink the blood. On a military campaign, each rider had from one to five reserve horses.

It is worth dwelling with this crucial element in the Mongolian military concept; the relative independence of both the individual soldier, the units and their leaders. Each of these had to be able to participate in major coordinated efforts, but each soldier or unit must also be capable of independent existence and action. There was never any dependence on a central unit for the function of all. The extensive collection of equipment carried by each individual is testimony to the emphasis laid upon this all-important combination of capability of joint engagement on the one side, and capability of independent action and a high degree of individual, even personal, self-sufficiency on the other.

from:

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm

[sabrewolf]

this thread is hilarious. KoR is talking such a load of BS i just can't stop laughing!

like you, KoR, i don't know much about history, and virtually nothing about eastern asian history... but at least i don't try and convince the ones who REALLY know it.

i just want to add some comments to various things in the last few pages:

- heavy armor is stronger than light one and leather, etc.
did you know, that spider-web-silk has a big potential for body armor? yes, spider-webs! one string can't help at all, but if they're woven together it can stop nearly everything... even bullets. the only problem is the difficulty to get enough material.
the secret of a good armor is to spread the impact. a hit from a sword might be stopped by a metal armor, because the area is quite big... but the tip of an arrow is just too small to be stopped. today, body-armor is usually a light but very hard metal woven together like beads or chains (i can't really rescribe it, can't find the words, sorry). not perfect safety, but it can make shots from hand-guns less dangerous.

- winning by sheer numbers.
you said china with 1.2billion could run over the rest of asia without any problem. is it really the population that counts? do you think if they'd mobilize, that all 1.2 billion would fight?
anyway, india has close to 1 billion, and pakistan, japan, bangladesh and others iirc 100-200million each. they already outnumber the chinese. so your argument is quite illogical.

i like reading coracle's and JTs posts because some of their comments make some sence. but you, KoR, are just talking so much crap that i can't understand why the others try to talk to you... you anyway don't seem to (want to) understand and admit your complet and utter ignorance and lack of knowledge. as ghengisfarb said, it's people like you, that make the rest of the world think of the americans as they do know.

[King of Rasslin]

Hey, Ghengis even said that a steel helmet is lighter AND more protective than kevlar. So much for silk.

As for kimchee, I guess if you enjoy the taste of alcohol you can consume anything. Seriously. How does it compare with sourkrought?

[Q Classic]

As for kimchee, I guess if you enjoy the taste of alcohol you can consume anything. Seriously. How does it compare with sourkrought?

didn't i just post that kimchee has no alcohol in it? it's fermented, yes, but no alcohol develops.

and it compares to sauerkraut because both are pickled cabbages; kimchee just happens to be unshredded and with extra spices.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Seriously. How does it compare with sourkrought?

They both smell REALLY bad. Can't tell you how they taste cause I would start getting really nauseated before I got within 20 feet of the stuff.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb


They both smell REALLY bad. Can't tell you how they taste cause I would start getting really nauseated before I got within 20 feet of the stuff.

There are some seriously unadventurous people here. I enjoy kim chee and sauerkraut- and Hungarian pepper relish and Indian sour lime chutney; it's bland processed crap like McDonalds that I find offensive.

Besides which, all the aformentioned pale in comparison with some dishes. Anyone else tried widjuti grubs? Or how about bogong moth? I belive the Viet Cong used to refer to one species of moth or moth larvae as tunnel or cave caviare...

[GhengisFarb™]

How do you even find out about all these strange food dishes? Is there some sorta secret club?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb



How do you even find out about all these strange food dishes? Is there some sorta secret club?

I'm sure there is some outre food club, but I'm not a member. I have a keen interest in the history of food, and was brought up on a working class British/Irish diet. Basically, everything was boiled, unless it was fried or roasted, the water being thrown away when whatever was being cooked was deemed done or dead(with the exception of the murky yellow green greasy liquor that the corned beef and cabbage had been cooked in on Sunday morning- after attending 9:30 a.m. Mass, you were expected to drink a mugful of this Geneva convention contravening liquid).

The influx of Ugandan, Tanzanian and Kenyan Asians to the town I grew up in was a godsend, along with the pre-existing Afro-Caribbean community. I studied in Manchester, which has large Chinese/Vietnamese and Kurdish/Arab/Iranian communities, then lived in the East End of London - hearty East European Jewish style dishes at Bloom's of Whitechapel and spicy Bengali dishes in Brick Lane, and worked in the centre of London- Lebanese gourmet food at Byblos in High Street Kensington, and Korean food at Koryo, amongst others.

Then I moved to Melbourne, which has one of the best and most varied restaurant scenes in the world, especially given its population base- Greek, Lebanese, Keralan, Iranian, Italian, Turkish, Ethiopian, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Pacific Rim fusion, East Timorese, you name it, Melbourne can dish it up. Of course, dining out or eating in, in Australia, isn't complete without sampling the native delicacies, such as flying fish roe, yabbies, Moreton Bay bugs, emu or kangaroo steaks. Widjuti grubs are slightly more difficult to come by, but I sampled them in Queensland, along with crocodile cutlets (similar to chicken in texture, oddly enough)...

[King of Rasslin]

Bugs? Gross! I love McDonalds and I would refuse to eat such unsanitary stuff like grubs. The human body isn't designed to consume insects, guys. And what kind of person eats kangaroo steak? Ugh...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Bugs? Gross! I love McDonalds and I would refuse to eat such unsanitary stuff like grubs. The human body isn't designed to consume insects, guys. And what kind of person eats kangaroo steak? Ugh...

I have had a serious bout of gastro-enteritis only once.

From a McDonald's filet-o-fish, which I unwisely consumed (15 years ago, now) after a long foodless train journey. It ended with dehydration and an anti-convulsive intra-muscular injection.

King of Rasslin does another good job of displaying his ignorance and prejudice- next you'll be telling me the French eat snails and frogs' legs, Szechuan cooking includes shredded jellyfish, and the Japanese eat uncooked fish. I tell you, I don't believe such things....

If you've ever had pink/red food colouring in icing, or cakes or cookies, King of Rasslin- bear in mind, it may have been cochineal. If you don't know what that is, look it up. Ever had honey? 'Bugs' make that- and do you know how?

In your toothpaste and ice cream you consume extracts of seaweed- taste good, does it?

The Aborigines were on to a good thing with their diet- in nutritional terms, it had the diet of 18th/19th Century Europe beaten hands down. Kangaroo is low in fat, low in cholesterol, and full of flavour. It also cooks quickly. Widjuti grubs are packed with protein and provide a fatty snack in a diet low in saturated fats. In health terms, it took a Western style diet to introduce the Aborigines and Pacific Islanders to the delights of obesity, heart disease and diabetes.

As for the human body not being designed to eat insects- you were in on the original specifications, were you? We're omnivores, in case you hadn't noticed- that means flesh or vegetable, insect or crustacean, it all goes down the same way , and out the same way....

[King of Rasslin]

Look on the food pyramid, duh! I don't see "insects" anywhere. If you eat heavy in carbs, and eat a small amount of fat, you will be healthy. Kangaroo meat isn't available here because we only have the best meat. Nothing beats a nice steak, but you can also get chicken or pork. Australians eat kangaroos, bugs, emus, and maybe even horses, I don't know. I only eat the stuff that I'm used to, because I know what I'm getting is good.

And diabetes is totally genetic. I have never, ever heard of people being fat here getting it because of that. It's because their DNA is that way, and they deserve no blame. Bugs aren't even found in a US supermarket, and Wal-Mart carries everything...

This reminds me of that Amish food, scrapple or something. It's what they don't put in hot dogs. And what exactly is gross enough NOT to be put in hot dogs?