Extra Pack, Existing Civs, part6: Zulus, Iroquois, England

[Wernazuma III]

Cities:
Zimbabwe
Ulundi
Bapedi
Hlobane
Isandhlwana
Intombe
Empangeni
Mpondo
Ngome
Swazi
Tugela
Umtata
Umfolozi
Ibabanago
Isipezi
Amatikulu
Zunguin
Nongoma
Pongola
Kambula
Babanango
Nquthu
Jozini
Ndondakusaka
Tshaneni
Colenso
Mlunzini
Talana
Eshowe
Magudu
Gingindlovu
Hluhluwe
Ndundulu
Ngwelezana
Mtubatuba
Nseleni
Mkuze
Tehingwe
Nyezane
Majuba
Mpila
Mbazwana
Laings Nek
Gqokli Hill
Masinda
Nkiya
Bashibis
Mselani
Mpumalanga

[Wernazuma III]

Cities:
Onondaga
Oneida
Teyagon
Ganaraske
Akwesasne
Canienga
Oswegatchie
Caughnawaga
Cattaraugus
Kente
Gandesetaiagon
Tiohero
Niagara Falls
Tonawanda
Owego
Kanagaro
Opolopong
Grand River
Deseroken
Allegany
Salamanca
Tuscarora
Saratoga
Geneseo
Chondote
Tyendinaga
Tueadasso
Buckaloon
Onnontare
Skohare
Catherine's Town
Ganogeh
Oka
Skannayutenate
Oriska
Canajoharie
Oil Springs
Gannentaha
Buffalo Creek
Neodakheat
Cowassalong
Union Springs
Venango
Nowadaga
Chemung
Osquake
Cittenango
Gadoquat
Onnahee
Mingo Town

Leaders:
Canaqueese
Garangula
Canassatego
King Hendrick
Skenandoah
Handsome Lake
Cornplanter
Joseph Brant
Sagoyewatha
Ely Parker

[Wernazuma III]

London
Nottingham
Coventry
York
Warwick
Newcastle
Manchester
Oxford
Liverpool
Dover
Brighton
Norwich
Sheffield
Leeds
Reading
Birmingham
Exeter
Cambridge
Southhampton
Gloucester
Bristol
Leicester
Sunderland
Bradford
Carlisle
Ipswich
Peterborough
Canterbury
Winchester
Salisbury
Huddersfield
Bedford
Wrexham
Stoke
Darlington
Blackburn
Luton
Barrow
Derby
Swansea
Blackpool
Northhampton
Portsmouth
Bolton
Hereford
Preston
Plymouth
Walsall
Berwick
Hastings
Oldham
Rochester
Middlesborough
Hull
Stafford
Wolverhampton
Cheltenham
Maidstone
Croydon
Worcester
Newport
Bath
Grimsby
Swindon
South Shield
Gateshead
Aylesbury
Chichester
Cirencester
Doncaster
Lancaster
Scarborough
Milton Keynes
Wigan
Banbury
Durham
Tonbridge
Shrewsbury
Stafford
Stoke
Chelmsford

Leaders:
Oliver Cromwell
Nelson
Wellington
Robert Walpole
Marlborough
Henry V
William Pitt
Edward III
Edward Longshanks
Henry II
Alfred the Great
Clement Attlee
Drake
Churchill
Montgomery

[Hagbart]

In the German list you included cities from Austria, would it be good to include Scottish cities in the English city list.

[Hagbart]

Move Manchester a little down the list York up.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Greenwich
Basildon

Having Basildon as a city in Civ just does not seem very realistic to me. And Greenwich, although famous, is only a small London borough.

Rochester, Middlesborough, Cheltenham, Maidstone, Croydon and Worcester (to name but a few) should come before them.

[Dauphin]

Just out of curiousity, how did you come up with those English city names?

(Not complaining, just curious)

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III Leaders:
Suggestions?

Oliver Cromwell
Arthur Wellesly (Duke of Wellington)
Robert Walpole
Henry V
William Pitt

[Wernazuma III]

I took them actually from an atlas and put every town in which was more than the one-line-circle. That's not the best method of course.

I'll do the changes right away, but first my son needs new pampers

[Wernazuma III]

I added Nelson and Marlborough to your list. I also updated the city list. What do you think now? Sagacious, you said: "to name but a few" can you name but a more?

[Wernazuma III]

Oh, and about the Scottish cities: I'm not sure. On one hand side, they now speak English (most of them) and they definitely have a variant of British culture. But I think this is a rather recent phenomenon. Scotish language has nothing to do with English, it's rather Celtic (right?) And they were seperate for much longer time than united. What does everyone else say? Should I make a poll?

[molly bloom]

I think you can definitely remove Greenwich and Richmond and Kingston, as they are but London boroughs, despite their many and varied attractions (including world heritage sites). Unless you mean the Kingston in the north, of course...

Swansea and Newport and Wrexham are located in Wales (or, rather, one Newport is located, famous for its Chartist uprising, Roman remains and Norman castle) and Blackpool despite its trams and glamour doesn't really occupy the place in English history that say, Winchester (Alfred's capital) or Salisbury does.

Poor Cornwall/Kernow misses out, but I think for geographical completeness you could include, say Penzance, Truro, Bodmin or Launceston.

As for the leaders- well, Edward III and Edward Longshanks spring to mind. As do Henry II, Alfred the Great and Clement Attlee.

[Ribannah]

And Robin Hood, of course.

A few missing cities:

Hull
Stafford
Wolverhampton

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Oh, and about the Scottish cities: I'm not sure. On one hand side, they now speak English (most of them) and they definitely have a variant of British culture. But I think this is a rather recent phenomenon. Scotish language has nothing to do with English, it's rather Celtic (right?) And they were seperate for much longer time than united. What does everyone else say? Should I make a poll?

If you are including Irish locations (Belfast) you have to include Scottish. If it weren't for the Scottish the British wouldn't have Northern Ireland.

Plus I want to re-iterate there is a big difference between British and English.

All in all, I would keep the Welsh names, and get rid of the Irish and Scottish.

[Dauphin]

Other possible locations

Winchester
Aylesbury
Chichester
Cirencester
Doncaster
Lancaster
Scarborough
Milton Keynes
Wigan
Salisbury
Banbury
Durham
Tonbridge
Shrewsbury
Stafford
Stoke
Chelmsford

I don't think I have double up any of your original entries

[Lord Merciless]

More English GLs:

William the Conqueror
Richard the Lionhearted
Edward I
Edward III
The Black Prince
Henry VIII
Francis Drake
Duke of Marlborough
Nelson
Churchill
Montgomery

[Wernazuma III]

Updated. I removed Belfast. Which else to remove?

[GoodFella]

Have you considered adding Metacomet (a.k.a. King Phillip) to the list of Iriquois leaders?

[Dauphin]

William the Conqueror is contentious, even if you say he founded the "new" England, rather than just conquered/acquired England.

Also with regards Coeur de Leon...

Who hasn't heard of Richard the Lionheart...soldier, poet and beloved English king of the Robin Hood legends, plotted against by foul Prince John? During his lifetime, he truly cast a larger-than-life shadow. So fierce a Crusader was England's Richard I, that he became the Middle East's equivalent of the "bogey man." Syrian mothers warned naughty children to bed lest King Richard come and get them.

Richard's popularity with the Saxons and peasantry in England, however, probably rested less on his fairness and more on the fact that he was hardly ever there. During his 10-year reign, it is estimated that he spent but 6 months in England. In fact, it is doubtful he ever spoke a word of English

[Dauphin]

Oops, read wrong post.

[Wernazuma III]

Exactly as Sagacious Dolphin states. These are the reasons why I didn't put Richard and William in the list.

Goodfella: Ask Ribannah, he did the Iroquois list. I'm completely blank with knowledge there...


Edit: Put is the word... <-- dumb me

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by GoodFella
Have you considered adding Metacomet (a.k.a. King Phillip) to the list of Iriquois leaders?

Metacomet (1638-1676) was Algonquin, not Iroquois.

[jasonbry]

Maybe add Tecumseh to the Iroquois Great leader list. He fought for an Independant Michigan for the Iroquois an Canadian Sovernty( bad spelling ) from America.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Updated. I removed Belfast. Which else to remove?

I think if you're going to call the civilization England/English, then be logical and remove the Welsh cities and Belfast. If the civ. were Britain/British, or a variant thereof, then the cities outside the geo-political borders of 'England' could remain. Given that the area around Swansea has a higher proportion of Welsh speakers than in other parts of South Wales or the Welsh marches, this seems particularly illogical.

[Dauphin]

Politically and economically Wales and England are almost inextricably linked as a single unit.

I'm sure many Welsh would feel agrieved at being called English, but there are enough 'English' things about Wales to justify the cities being included as English cities. (As it is justifiable to include Austrian place names as German)

I wouldn't complain if they were withdrawn from the list though.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by jasonbry
Maybe add Tecumseh to the Iroquois Great leader list. He fought for an Independant Michigan for the Iroquois an Canadian Sovernty( bad spelling ) from America.

Tecumseh was Shawnee, not Iroquois.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Politically and economically Wales and England are almost inextricably linked as a single unit.

I'm sure many Welsh would feel agrieved at being called English, but there are enough 'English' things about Wales to justify the cities being included as English cities. (As it is justifiable to include Austrian place names as German)

I wouldn't complain if they were withdrawn from the list though.

No Welsh ancestry, I take it?

If we were to use your reasoning then at least one city in Northern Ireland would have to be included- Londonderry/Derry/Doire, whose links with the City of London (and by extension England) are obvious from its former/current name.

I think the rationale behind including Austrian city names in a German civ list is slightly different- the cultural sphere of the German peoples as a whole, would stretch to the Volga, the Baltic and the Black Sea
and then you have the House of Habsburg link, with the almost continuous occupancy of the Holy Roman Empire's crown from the 15th century onwards by an Austrian based German speaking member of the House of Habsburg.

If we're going to call the civ. English, fine, have English cities. If it were British/Britain, that's a different kettle of poissons, as the name has a longer pedigree, and more relevance when applied to the Welsh. The problem for me has always been that the sloppy/inexact use of English for British and England for Great Britain or the United Kingdom manages to exclude a large number of people of non-Germanic origin and a great deal of history and culture in isles not originating with the Germanic invaders.

Of course this all began because of the erroneous assumption on Sid's/Firaxis's part that English/British were interchangeable, which of course they aren't.

In any case, there are enough towns/cities of importance and size within the boundaries of England to fill Wernazuma's list.

[Wernazuma III]

It's getting confusing. Is my list OK as it is in my edited original post?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
It's getting confusing. Is my list OK as it is in my edited original post?

Just take out Swansea, Wrexham and Newport. As I said, the area around Swansea has a higher proportion of native Welsh speakers than elsewhere in South Wales (in comparison with, say Cardiff or Chepstow/ Cas Gwent), so that would make little sense. I suspect the link in the atlas was to do with population figures, possibly, as there seems to be a preponderance of industrial era cities in the list, with a bias towards the north. One glaring omission- Chester, Deva to the Romans, home of the 20th legion, Valeria Victrix. Can't remember if you included Lincoln, either.

[Wernazuma III]

I've done the changes