Winning Early: What do YOU do?

[vmxa1]

So it would seem I was correct about civs getting upset about your holding their people. I never care about them getting upset as I am a Warmonger and will probably stay at war with them the whole game anyway. I just don't want to manage the lazy bums that work at half speed. To sell they must be in your capitol city. You can buy workers as well at times. I should say you could, have not tried it since the first patch.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
So, remembering this is for new players (yeah right, they just read through 5 pages of this stuff):

Actually, yeah, I did read all of it.

I have a bazillion questions, since I only started playing this week, but the big request I have for everyone giving tips to us newbies is to please go easy on the acronyms.

I'm a newbie, and yes, I read the acronym thread already, but it quickly degenerated into a general web/IRC acronym discussion, which I already know.


So, to pull myself back on topic....

I have a game I started as Persia, standard map, disabled Conquest, disabled Culture Linking.

I'm on a continent all by myself, which I didn't realize until halfway into the Ancient Age or more.

Once I got Mapmaking, I sent out a couple of boats with units to find other civs, so I could trade tech, find leftover huts, and hopefully initiate trade routes.

Unfortunately, I'm the only guy with harbors, I've got all the Ancient Wonders except Great Wall. When I found America, they were barely ahead of me in techs, but I finished the Great Library AND entered a Golden Age within a couple of turns, so I caught up really quickly on research.

China is isolated like me, and I think Japan might also be isolated. Aztec, America, Germany are all sharing a continent. I have exclusive Contact Info on China. I have embassies everywhere.

My own continent is not yet fully "built out" - I have a couple of blanks between a few cities and the entire southern 1/3 is completely unbuilt - currently, it's my Elite's training ground(barbs).

So, what do I do?
I like building, but I know America is strong and probably going to get stronger. China, if they ever catch up, will likely be tough to dislodge.

This is only my 3rd game, we just entered whatever the second age is called, I don't have enough military to confidently wage a war and my incomplete building worries me. I've traded for everyone else's World Map, but held mine back(I'm no fool). I've given each civ a couple of gifts of 1gp, which was 5-10% of their treasury for a few of them.


So, in this situation, as a builder, do I just keep trading and building, trying for trade routes, hopefully build out to those 4 Gems squares on the southern tip and try to build a tech lead?

Or do I attempt to instigate a war on the 3-civ continent? (This scares me, but mostly because I truly am a newb to Civ3.)


Thanks in advance, and let me know if I should just start a "help this lame newbie" thread for this question.

Thanks also to everyone taking time to help us newbs - this thread and many others are great, even if a few of the acronyms send me to the Manual/Civilopedia.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by ducki
Unfortunately, I'm the only guy with harbors, I've got all the Ancient Wonders except Great Wall. When I found America, they were barely ahead of me in techs, but I finished the Great Library AND entered a Golden Age within a couple of turns, so I caught up really quickly on research.

That is normal in the Ancient Era. The AI civs will probably only build one harbor at most for a while and that may not happen till they the tech needed to trade across ocean. You can't trade even if they have a harbor until you have viable trade route. If you have a coastal waters between you another civ then you can trade as soon as a harbor is built. If there are seas in between then you need the tech that enables you to build Carvels. I forget which tech that is. There are two techs that enable movement on oceans, Magnetism is one I think the other is Navigation but its a dead end so I never research it just get in trade. Until then the AI isn't exactly hot to build harbors.

You may want that dead in tech in this case. It allows you to build the Magellan Great Wonder and that is usefull for island nations just like the Great Lighthouse can be the difference between making contact and being stuck till its too late.

China is isolated like me, and I think Japan might also be isolated. Aztec, America, Germany are all sharing a continent. I have exclusive Contact Info on China. I have embassies everywhere.

This is good. It allows you to be the middleman in tech trading. I wouldn't trade contacts until you see ships moving out to make contact. Then I sell to get the money before they make contact on their own.

Same for maps in this case but I normaly am willing to trade maps. In this case you have an exclusive and if you sell your maps you may lose it. Just remember that when you have mapped islands others haven't and a lot of ocean they haven't they may be willing to pay a lot for that map. Just don't forget to trade it around to all that can pay if you trade to one. You don't want them getting the value from your mapping.

My own continent is not yet fully "built out" - I have a couple of blanks between a few cities and the entire southern 1/3 is completely unbuilt - currently, it's my Elite's training ground(barbs).

So, what do I do?

Build it out. If you don't the AI will move in settlers as soon as they can. If you hold the entire island you will be very hard to attack. All you need do is block them from landing.

You might not want to build the Forbiden Palace unless the is plenty of land for you to reach the optimum number of cities. If you intend to invade you may want to build the FP on the mainland but that is hard to do without a Great Leader. Those can be hard to get sometimes.

This is only my 3rd game, we just entered whatever the second age is called, I don't have enough military to confidently wage a war and my incomplete building worries me. I've traded for everyone else's World Map, but held mine back(I'm no fool). I've given each civ a couple of gifts of 1gp, which was 5-10% of their treasury for a few of them.

There isn't a lot you can do to wage war anyway as long you are stuck using galleys. Bide a bit and plan on building a large number of cavalry units. They are the best unit till riflemen show up so beeline your research for them and then as you build up your military go for magnetism so you can invade. Cavalry are also your best way to get a GL till tanks show up and you will likely need one for the Forbidden Palace.

Of course if you can build 16 to 20 cities or even as little as 12 on a lower level you can just hold the island and shoot for the Space Race victory.

So, in this situation, as a builder, do I just keep trading and building, trying for trade routes, hopefully build out to those 4 Gems squares on the southern tip and try to build a tech lead?

Of course you want the gems. You want the whole island anyway.

Or do I attempt to instigate a war on the 3-civ continent? (This scares me, but mostly because I truly am a newb to Civ3.)

If you want to invade and take territory then yes. You might want the tech that enables a Mutual Protection Pact first. Wish I remembered which one that is. I don't worry about that stuff. I just go for the techs I want and eventually I can make MPPs. They are cheaper than alliances but for you to invade MPPs have the drawback that they don't activate till you have some territory your enemy can attack. Normally that isn't a problem but you won't have any such territory till you take a city on some other land.

[Theseus]

Good advice, Ethelred.

ducki, you sound like you're doing pretty well. Keep building for the moment, and try to get ahead in tech a couple of times (you get rich, AI civs get poor).

I also would wait for Cavs, and caravels or galleons. Think hard about who you want to attack and where... I suggest going after strategic or luxury resources, and trying to take towns / cities in adjacent pairs.

What acronyms need explaining?

[ducki]

Thanks Ethelred, I feel much better now.
I keep reading strategy guides that talk about early battles and since I'm past Ancient now, I wondered if being isolated was going to really hurt, since I haven't had any wars yet.

I'll just keep on building I reckon.


Here's another truly newbie question...
How do I generate a Great Leader?
I mean step-by-step, the whole nine-yards, as though I was your grandmother wanting an explanation of how to get a Great Leader.

I know I need at least 1 elite unit, but do I have to actually attack with it, or can he just be nearby?

Can I attack barbarians to generate leaders, or only AI units?
Does it have to be an attack on a city, or just killing someone else's unit?

I realise that much of creating a GLeader is dependent on the RNG, but I don't even know the specifics that I can control.

Originally posted by Theseus
ducki, you sound like you're doing pretty well. Keep building for the moment, and try to get ahead in tech a couple of times (you get rich, AI civs get poor).

Damned Americans are going to make this tough unless someone slows them down. The GLibrary should at least ensure I don't fall far behind, though, and that noone else is riding my coattails.

I also would wait for Cavs, and caravels or galleons. Think hard about who you want to attack and where... I suggest going after strategic or luxury resources, and trying to take towns / cities in adjacent pairs.

I'm not even sure I do want to attack at all. If I have everything I need on my continent and the nearby island, I might just turn Persia into Switzerland this time around.

What acronyms need explaining?

It's not that I have any in particular right now but sometimes the "help the newbies" threads are so chock full of acronyms that the actual strategy gets a little lost in trying to remember/decipher what they mean.
Especially acronyms like GL.
It might be obvious to veterans giving advice that, based on context, that particular GL can only mean one thing, but to a newbie that doesn't have big chunks of the Tech Tree memorized, GL - in particular - is problematic.

There's others too. Like SC. I haven't been able to build it yet, so if someone was talking post-Ancient strategy and said "be sure to get SC", it might take me a few minutes to figure it out or load up Civ and wind my way through the CivPedia to find it.

For all I know, SC means more than Sistine Chapel.


Anyway, I ramble.
The gist of that was, sometimes a really good tip or strategy - particularly when aimed at a newb like me - can easily get lost in a sea of jargon and acronyms that might as well be written in Ancient Sumerian.

I'm really, really glad you guys are here to pass on your wisdom, though, and if all these great tips mean I have to put a bit of extra effort into understanding them, then that's what it takes.

So again, thanks to everyone for the help and maybe Civ4 won't have a single acronym that means so many things. Personally, I think Great Leader would be better off named *culture* Hero, like Greek Hero, Persian Hero, etc. Especially since it works like a "hero" and leads to the Epic - nah, that's too logical.


Thanks again guys!

[Theseus]

Generating GLs is only from combat involving an elite unit.

1/16 chance on attack and 1/32 on defense, increasing respectively to 1/12 and 1/24 if you have built the Heroic Epic (which can only be built after an Army wins one battle).

Armies cannot generate GLs, but the defeat of an Army by an elite unit can.

Only non-bombard land units can generate GLs.

No GLs from defeating barbs.

Militaristic has no impact on generating GLs, just increased chances for promotions.

[vmxa1]

Step by step? Well all you need is an elite unit (warrior and up) to win a battle. You do not have to attack, you can be attacked and make one. If you are not a Militaristic civ you have a 1/16 change to create a GL unit from a battle. If you have the Epic you get a 1/12 chance. Same if you are a Miltary civ. You can not get a leader from fighting a barb. Once you have one, you can not make another until that one is use. IOW only one can exist for a given Civ at any time. Ok GL in this context is great leader.

Edit to replace elite with the corect term GL. Sorry for being too laszy to prove read.

[vmxa1]

I would say that not having any battles is hurting you as you can not make a leader. If you made a few you could rush a key wonder or a FP or move the palace or make an army.

[Wormwood]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Step by step? Well all you need is an elite unit (warrior and up) to win a battle. You do not have to attack, you can be attacked and make one. If you are not a Militaristic civ you have a 1/16 change to create an elite unit from a battle. If you have the Epic you get a 1/12 chance. Same if you are a Miltary civ. You can not get a leader from fighting a barb. Once you have one, you ca not make another until that one is use. IOW only one can exist for a given Civ at any time. Ok GL in this context is great leader.

I think you mean GL when talking about 1/16-1/12 chance, not elite. And, as theseus stated above, Militaristic Civs don't have higher GL chances, just more chances for promotion to elite.

[Theseus]

Good point I forgot to make... only one GL at a time. Managed properly, you can generate multiple GLs in a single turn, which I've done a number of times.

The key lesson? Battle early, battle often, and take care of your elites (e.g., bombardment to make it easy, GL-creation teams, etc.).

If you want to see a GL created on defense, check the 1625AD save in the thread "OK guys I need your input here...".

[vmxa1]

Yes you can make a number on one turn if you use the leader as soon as it it is created. The only bad thing about defensive omes is that you may lose them. The game seem to thing it is funny to let me get a leader with the one unit left standing by itself and them have it killed.
Anyway I just wanted to toss in my two cents for getting off the island and going to war. You just really need those early leaders.

[ducki]

Thanks for clarifying GL generation, y'all.

I've now got 3 games going with different Civs, each of which is fun and challenging.

Even though I haven't completed a game yet, I'm considering jumping from Chieftan up to whatever's next in difficulty.

And on a side note, I love France. I am kicking some serious butt as France on a continent with Germany, Russia, and England, two other Civs unknown as yet, but England just brought a dozen or more horsemen to bear on a border city and declared war...I guess I'll see about GLeader generation, assuming the RNG is nice to me.

Thanks again for a great Tips thread!

[ducki]

Here's my very own tip for newbies!

Keep track of how long your agreements last and do not break them without good reason.

In my France game, apparently I didn't fully understand how Alliance vs. Russia was supposed to work and really Pissed Off England by granting Russia peace too soon, and not only did that upset England, but everyone on my continent hates me - well, hateD me.
Actually, Russia is still limping along, but....

How do I know for sure if an agreement has expired?

Thx again.

p.s. Got my first G.Leader! Made an Army, Built H.Epic! Woohoo!

[Theseus]

When you are in the trading screen with a specific civ, at the bottom of the trading box there are the words "New" and "Active." Click on Active... all of your existing deals with the number of turns remaining will be shown.

[MyOlde]

Good question, ducki, I've been wondering the same kind of thing for awhile but not gotten around to inquiring.

Thanks for the answer, Theseus.

I don't know what most of us would do without this forum (and the bright people who contribute). This game is so complex I think I'd have given up on it ages ago.

Thanks to everyone who contributes.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
When you are in the trading screen with a specific civ, at the bottom of the trading box there are the words "New" and "Active." Click on Active... all of your existing deals with the number of turns remaining will be shown.

So if there's no number next to an "Active" deal, it's no longer "binding"?

[Theseus]

Yes, you are free to go psycho at that point.

[Catt]

Originally posted by ducki


So if there's no number next to an "Active" deal, it's no longer "binding"?

Wait! It's still binding until you cancel it.

Cancel it by clicking on it. You will automatically be brought to the "New" deals screen, with the "canceled" deal appearing on the trade table. Simply remove the canceled deal from the "New" table, proceed with a different deal or no deal at all (by exiting the diplomacy screen).

Even if a particular deal has run more than 20 turns, it remains in effect unless you or the AI partner affirmatively cancels it.

Catt

[Theseus]

Oops, sorry if I was misleading. Yes, you need to cancel... be aware that for your peace treaty canceling and leaving the trading table is basically a (honorable) declaration of war.

[Theseus]

On a new note, I'd like to point out that in the very early game, one should trying to negotiate very sharply.

I just started a new game, as China. I met Liz in 3500BC... she knows Alphabet, and I know Warrior Code and Masonry. When I asked her how much, she wanted both of my techs and 21 gold. By playing around a bit, I realized she'd do the tech deal and give ME 6 gold.

That doesn't sound like anything huge, but if you keep nailing your deals right, it builds up to a huge advantage.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Theseus
On a new note, I'd like to point out that in the very early game, one should trying to negotiate very sharply.

I just started a new game, as China. I met Liz in 3500BC... she knows Alphabet, and I know Warrior Code and Masonry. When I asked her how much, she wanted both of my techs and 21 gold. By playing around a bit, I realized she'd do the tech deal and give ME 6 gold.

That doesn't sound like anything huge, but if you keep nailing your deals right, it builds up to a huge advantage.

yep, you can always get a better deal by negotiating... but the more generous you are, the more the AI likes you. best is e.g. if you give them gpt or resources for free...
as long as you penny-pick in your deals, they will never be gracious towards you.

but in the very early game, i'd definetly go for the better deal. if you don't, you can lose contact with them on higher levels.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
Oops, sorry if I was misleading. Yes, you need to cancel... be aware that for your peace treaty canceling and leaving the trading table is basically a (honorable) declaration of war.

Ok, now I'm confused.

Basically, I want to be able to go to war without truly upsetting the other AIs.

Example: I go to war against Russia. I bring in Germany with an Alliance vs. Russia.

Now, I have to not make peace with Russia for 20 turns, right? But after that 20 turns, if Bismarck is still fighting, do I need to cancel the Alliance manually, or can I freely make peace with no ill feelings?

Apparently the AIs really hate it when you bring them to a war and then go home. Go figure.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by ducki
Now, I have to not make peace with Russia for 20 turns, right? But after that 20 turns, if Bismarck is still fighting, do I need to cancel the Alliance manually, or can I freely make peace with no ill feelings?

You need to cancel the Alliance manually, THEN make peace with Russia.

At which time Bismark will probably not like you as much, anyway.....

[Theseus]

Bump

[ducki]

Originally posted by Jaybe

You need to cancel the Alliance manually, THEN make peace with Russia.

At which time Bismark will probably not like you as much, anyway.....

Bismarck never likes me much.

[DFHNY]

This being one of the better threads on apolyton, could the pros add anything about the early game in light of PTW (single player). Perhaps about the new civs? New tactics? Etc.

[ducki]

Not a pro, but definitely do not count on the barbarians to blithely run to their death when they can go around you and kill your workers or find easier pickings from a nearby civ.

One of the easiest ways I have found to get myself into trouble early is not having defenders for my workers, or at least one or two attackers roaming around to take out any barbarians that crop up.

HTH

[Arrian]

Bump. Ducki is correct re: barb behavior. Also, worker buying has been nerfed: the AI now wants about 130gold each for them.

The AI is better now, due to some undocumented tweaks by Soren (AI programmer). Build preferences, terrain development, stuff like that.

PTW has a new hut option: new city. Like in CivII, you get a brand new city. Also like CivII, it may well be in the wrong spot. I prefer getting a settler.

Two major changes in contact with other civs as of PTW v. 1.14:

1) The AI apparently used to be able to trade contact with civs before it had writing, and no longer can. It affords you better contact trading possibilities if you're the first to writing.
2) The AI will now aggressively sell contact with YOU to other AI civs. You will now find civs you've never met calling you up during the AI turn to say hi.

That's about it, except of course for the new civs in PTW. Many of them have high aggressiveness ratings, so beware.

-Arrian

[jshelr]

Arrian wrote, "Many of them have high aggressiveness ratings, so beware."

This may be an understatement by a mile. Others' experiences are most welcome but I have to say that there may be a new strat in the works due to out of control warmongering by the AI.

1. Do the usual stuff early as per this thread.
2. If that does not clear the map, then sit back and relax -- you can research your way to the win as long as you have a decent defence.

Based on several games, it seems probable that the AI are now so warlike that even on high difficulty levels they cause each other so much pain and suffering that the peaceful builder (who's grabbed enough space during ancient history) is going to have a real chance at winning without further conflict.

PS, trade RoP with everybody in sight.

[Arrian]

You're on to something there, jshelr. In my recent Ottoman game (the one I posted in the "A Strategic Choice" thread on the strategy forum), I was on a large continent with 6 other civs, and there was an awful lot of warfare.

The Arabs attacked me (2 reg warriors)
I attacked the Aztecs, knocking them to 1 city with archers.
The Arabs & Romans got into a war, don't remember who started it.
The Arabs got the Aztecs to ally vs. Rome.
The Aztecs fought France, getting the Arabs to ally.
I attacked Rome.
I attacked France.
The Arabs attacked me again.
I attacked Egypt

That's as of 900AD.

-Arrian