Winning Early: What do YOU do? - Page 7

Rhothaerill · October 15, 2003, 14:55

Welcome to 'Poly Forest.

I happen to agree with you. I almost never build the great library anymore as I find it disruptive to my plans more than it helps them. Aggressive tech trading is the way to go.

Theseus · October 15, 2003, 19:55

forest, the GLib can be *extremely* useful in certain situations (e.g., isolated start), but in general I agree with Rhothy, there are much better ways to stay abreast and profit from tech... researching what the AI civs do NOT and / or and gaining a lead in a tech branch will do wonders for your game.

MysteryMan · October 15, 2003, 20:37

Well, I play it as follows:
If I am a warmonger, I don't build the damn thing. Tech is easy to extort (if you have the stronger military) and the cultural effect is fairly unimportant to warmongers.
If I am an enlightened leader then I do build it whenever possible. I still pursue a tech trading/selling policy and don't rely on the library, in fact I often never get a tech from the library. There are 2 compelling reasons to build the Great Library:
1)Culture. I doubt I need to go in depth here
2)I call this The Hasek Theory. "If he's on our side, we won't have to play against him". This means that if you build the Great Library, no one else can build it, thusly no one else can benefit from it.
This SOUNDS good but is not good against the computer, particularly at the higher difficulty settings.

In the older versions of Civ, I could often totally redeem a terrible start if I could get the Great Library. Not anymore. Useless for an early game win (unless you want an early cultural win, good luck with that...)

WackenOpenAir · October 16, 2003, 07:03

not enough information ???

if you combine all the information around here and translate it to a language a monkey can understand, any monkey can win a deity game.

Yahweh Sabaoth · October 17, 2003, 17:52

If you're on a crowded continent (for you huge map fans out there) the Great Library is INCREDIBLY useful. If you plan to CONQUER those neighbors - and spend your time and money doing so - it's THE most useful ancient wonder, in my view. Because the bottom line is, if you're up against ALL the Europeans at once, with a few other expanionists thrown in, it's gonna take a lot of money to buy all the techs from them, and you won't necessarily be in a position to take the techs via force before the end of the ancient era.

And I for one like those free techs... I means I get free cities when I negotiate peace deals after aggression, instead of free techs...

...but then again, what do I know?

vmxa1 · October 17, 2003, 18:06

I don't think it is a function of map size, so much as your ability to tech. If you are out researching the AI, then the GLIB is not going to give you free tech. So if you are at emperor, you can get some value out of it before you take the lead, if lower, you do not have to catch up in most games.
The one case where map size can aler things is a huge map with lots of civs. They can pop so many techs and trade them around that you can get to education very fast.

Yahweh Sabaoth · October 17, 2003, 18:16

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The one case where map size can aler things is a huge map with lots of civs. They can pop so many techs and trade them around that you can get to education very fast.

But the flip side is that, while education comes up very quickly, thus invalidating the GL, you also can get very easily left in the lurch, with most of the civs having many more techs than you, early in the game... this levels out a bit when the medival era comes 'round, but if you're stuck still researching construction while others are researching theology, well then, you've got some catching up to do.

GL is hence very valuable for crowded large/huge games where the player wants to get Map Making, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Republic, etc., for free, and then readjust strategy as needs be for the new (medival) era.

...now, I am most curious to see if that theory about giving away the GL and re-taking it AFTER education, to make the wonder work anew, is valid! That would radically enhance the value of the wonder, and if it's true, I'm going to smack myself 100 times for not doing this in every damn game.

MysteryMan · October 20, 2003, 04:53

Getting the GL working again in the modern era could be quite useful. I'll check it the next chance I get and let you know what happens.

Tolwyn · October 20, 2003, 05:45

I've beaten the number 2 civ in the game to bloody pulp in different huge-map games and the only time I could get techs from the civ in peace negotiations was on the lower difficulty levels. givin' peace didn't work,extort didn't work. I could buy the techs but I just went to war to GET those techs for FREE... any solution? in the ancient era..yes there is..the GL

Oh, btw I foud it very useful to give sell give sell every tech away to prevent 16 or 24 civs swapping techs like crazy. Seems to work. Why? I think because if the AI is researching the tech you give him their beakers go to 0 and they start over again and the aI does not have anything to trade with.

Panag · October 20, 2003, 07:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Cookie Monster

You must make sure that you are militarily stronger than the target civ for this to work.

Side note re: Great Library. Has anyone gifted the city with the GL away just before Education and then conquer the city back after education. Supposedly I read at CFC that you can benefit from the GL a second time all the way to the beginning of the industrial age!

hi ,

, yes and no , the AI might get loads of free stuff , but he has nothing at all ( well almost nothing ) of classical military tactics , ..... one good example for this are the demogames , even at deity a small under powered civ ( played by the humans ) goes after a more modern and better equiped civ and beats the heck out of them , .......

and it has happend in the real world dozens of times also

have a nice day

Konquest02 · November 4, 2003, 22:52

I was browsing through the must read threads, and this one surely needs a bumping. Most of the things here should still apply to C3C, as this is the base of Civ...

--Kon--

Theseus · December 23, 2003, 21:27

As part of a very involved and longer discussion, Aeson chimed in with an unbelievable treatise on the early game. It is specific to the map / game being discussed, but there are a ton of valuable lessons and ideas in his posts:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=5

Khalim · December 24, 2003, 11:20

Sometimes i have fun playing a looooooooog game on a laaaaarge map.

Other times i find it satisfying to go for an early victory, it depends on my mood

For early victories a figured out for myself this strategy :
(Btw i play basic Civ3 with no Add-Ons, so there might be other civilizations (i.e. Celts) which are as good in ptw/c3c)

I choose Romans or Persians (Legionary/Immortal), develop Iron Working as fast as i can and pray for Iron near one of my maximum of 3-4 cities.

If there´s no iron ... see you later, alligator... and dig my grave

If there is iron : Lucky me. All cities switch to production of Legionaries/Immortals. Dont waste time building useless Temples. 1-2 Luxuries should be enough to keep your people satisfied.

After building 10-12 of em, i start war with my nearest neighbour and eliminate him, taking over all of his cities which instantly start to produce barracks and, after those are built, more attack units.

continue this until the world lies down to your knees ...

This works fine in Civ3-basic, even though you might get those stinking greek hoplites (1.3.1, i hate em) near to you if playing Romans. Give them a quick death before they can spread.
(In PTW Carthago is even worse. Who invented those Numidian Spearmen ? Blargh, they really can destroy all of my efforts without a little luck).

Of course, this wont work well and fast on a map larger than small (maybe standard).

Shogun Gunner · December 24, 2003, 12:52

One thing I noticed is that I haven't seen "formulas for success relating to build queues" like I used to read for Civ2.

People would often post

warrior, warrior, settler, temple.... as their stated Civ2 build strategy. There seems to be more variables in Civ3 which makes these "cast in stone strategies" less relevant.

I like that.

Great suggestion on Aeson's thread, Theseus. Thanks for posting that.

ducki · December 29, 2003, 11:40

I've found myself just beating the tar out of Monarch-level by starting exactly the same every single time, regardless of Civ.

If I don't have it, research Pottery at 100%.
Warrior(explore)-Warrior(garrison/explore)-Granary(or prebuild)-Warrior(escort)-Settler

Every time.
I get my second city out very few turns later than the AIs, but my third, fourth, etc come very, very fast. So fast that I rarely have time to build anything in my capitol but Warrior-Settler-Warrior-Settler, though I try to get a Curragh out within the first 10 units I build.

And this is with Random everything except for World Size(standard).

nbarclay has a turn-by-turn analysis on this opening somewhere in this thread if you want to know exactly how many(few) turns your second settler is delayed, but it's not much. Beyond the first Settler, I vary things quite a bit, but the first warrior to the first settler is the same, which I hate, but short of creating a self-imposed rule, it seems the best way to win early.

UnityScoutChopper · December 29, 2003, 13:26

Interesting, ducki. I would never straitjacket myself with a single set of opening builds, personally -- I may want more or fewer explorers, I may have so many early units (e.g. due to popping warriors from huts) that I build one settler before my granary just for the support boost, I may have so much food and so few shields in my home city that I build a second one to build garrisons to reduce unrest in my home city/ supplement exploration...

But on the other hand, it IS true that I stick to the general formula

explorers - (maybe settler, once in a blue moon something else) - granary - settler/worker factory.

And since I play huge maps, my second, third, and fourth cities are often ALSO settler/worker factories... :-)

USC

ducki · December 29, 2003, 15:10

I'm not straightjacketing myself, really.
If I have two mined shielded grasslands(or similar food-shield output), rapid expansion is so strong that I find not building the granary slows me down... a lot.
It's non-intuitive that building your first settler later helps you expand faster, but it certainly works for me in every case so far since I read Nathan's analysis, and every time I don't do it, I feel slow.

I really wish the ultra-early granary wasn't so strong - actually, what I wish, is that REX wasn't so strong. As it is, short of a barbarian disaster or a SVC-esque start, I don't think the AI can compete with a human that builds a granary that early. At least at Monarch and below.

Artifex · December 29, 2003, 17:29

Wonder if it works on emperor.

ducki · December 29, 2003, 18:28

As soon as I patch, I'll find out.
Look for "Ducki Does C3C at Emperor" in the Strat forum in the next couple of weeks.

vmxa1 · December 29, 2003, 20:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Artifex
Wonder if it works on emperor.

I have changed to not send out my first warrior, especially as an AG civ. The next pop comes too fast and you have
an unhappy citizen. I use this for EMP or Demi. I want to keep my research maxed out to get Alphabet-Writing etc.

I think I just used warrior warrior warrior settler then granary. The settler is used to get my pump started. I am still trying different things to see what I like best though.

Theseus · December 29, 2003, 22:24

I very much vary (!), according to the situation. The starting city is certainly not always going to be the pump, and thus does not necessarily build a granary.

/me gets an idea for a new thread!

Artifex · December 31, 2003, 17:13

What exactly is the formula for a settler pump? how many turns per settler and what land do you need for the pump?

Rhothaerill · December 31, 2003, 17:50

There isn't a set formula for a settler pump, but a granary with +5 food per turn (using wheat, cattle, flood plains, the agricultural trait, or any combination) is the first key. The second key is to be able to produce at least 7 shields per turn (spt), and grow to produce 8spt.

Here's how it works. With a granary and +5 food per turn (fpt)your city will grow in 2 turns. If you have produced 7spt then you will have 14 shields toward the settler. The next two turns you must keep the 5fpt to be able to grow in 2 turns. If you can maintain 8spt during those two turns then you will have the 30 shields necessary to build the settler. This is the optimal 4 turn settler as you can rinse and repeat it as much as you want if it's set up like this.

BTW, I purposely did not take into account the extra shields you might get when your city grows, because that is dependent on autoallocation of the next workforce.

Capt Dizle · December 31, 2003, 19:24

You don't need quite that many shields. If you have a forest handy you will pick up two extra shields on the second and fourth turns.

Six shields is enough. 6+8+7+9=30 shields.

True for PTW, not sure about C3C

Capt Dizle · December 31, 2003, 19:27

The thing is that if you are running at plus five food the computer will always stick the new worker on a productive tile.

Harovan · January 1, 2004, 04:21

Quote:

True for PTW, not sure about C3C

Works the same.

Quote:

The thing is that if you are running at plus five food the computer will always stick the new worker on a productive tile.

Unless you have set the governor to "maximize food", but then the settler factory with only 6 initial shields doesn't work, because the new laborers will be set on grassland instead of forest.

rebo · January 2, 2004, 02:03

Regarding winning early.

My priority is to kidnap an enemy civ's worker at the earliest oppurtunity. I will then also destory improvements near their capital.

Usually after a few turns you can have a peace treaty even if it costs some money. Thing is a loss of a worker and their tile impovements at such a early stage is crippiling for the AI especially when its in a 'war' state.

vmxa1 · January 2, 2004, 03:01

That can be fatal above monarchy level. It is something to be very careful about at those levels, The extra units can ruin your day if they are not spread out at the time.

ducki · January 5, 2004, 11:23

Artifex, go check out "Ducki Does C3C at Emperor" in the Strat forum. Dominae and others took great pains in explaining the 4-turn settler pump on my emperor game, which came with a starting location seemingly tailored for a 4-turn settler pump and a 2-turn worker pump.
Once you "get it" it's a truly amazing feeling of awe and power.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=105424

steven8r · January 6, 2004, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Lawrenc of Arabia *On a large map, archer rush is still a factor, but not as useful or effective as a later Horsemen rush. Also, since archers are not upgradable past longbowmen, they can be seen as wasted resources, while horsemen go all of the way to Cavalry.

In C3C, Archers (and Warriors) can upgrade all the way to TOWInfantry.
Archer --> Longbowman --> Guerilla --> TOW Infantry --> EndOfLife.
Warrior --> Swordsman --> Medeival Infantry --> Guerilla --> TOW Infantry --> EndOfLife.

Spearmen will upgrade all the way to Mech Infantry.
Spear --> Pike --> Musket --> Rifle --> Infantry --> Mech Infantry --> EndOfLife.

Chariots (and their line) will be good for early, fast-moving warfare.
Charriot --> Horseman --> Knight --> Cavalry --> EndOfLife.

Know your upgrade paths. Upgrading costs gold, but is usually cheaper than using Sheilds to build 'new' units.

Quote:

Originally posted by Barchan
In just about every military around the globe, elite units are the hardest, toughest, best equipped and most capable units in the force. They're exactly the ones you choose for the tough assignments and they're exactly the ones up front leading the regulars into combat (hence the motto "Rangers Lead the Way").

The Ancient Greek Phalanx charge was made-up of 3 ranks of soldiers. The Rookies were on the front line. The Veterans were behind the Rooks to pressure them onward and to keep them running forward. The 'Elites' (multiple time veterans) were behind the Vets to cleanup the mess left by the front 2 ranks and keep them from running away. (similar info later posted by LoA and Zachriel)

This is not so diferent a strategy than to 'Guard one's Elites'. It worked for the Greeks IRL.

And check-out Ducki's thread above. Very good 'Pump' info

Steven