Constitutional Committee

[AdamTG02]

I mostly agree with DBTS.

Industry and Energy as it stands doesn't do much. Recommends mineral- and energy-increasing facilities to Base Production, yes, but I don't think we need a Director to recommend ever single thing. (Who recommends Children's Creches?) Possibly manages supply crawlers, if Base Production doesn't do it. Possibly manages the Economy rate in consultation with SE and Science, if we don't want to make energy rates just an SE function. Possibly okays energy expenditure, if we don't want to allow the Directors of Foreign Affairs, Base Production, and Exploration and Intelligence to make that decision on their own. (What to do if Santiago demands 1000 energy credits, and you can't find the Director of I&E?)

I'd favor merging the two. The problem is that we have seperate candidate lists for both positions, and the ACE supports two seperate candidates (Juliennew and Vlad Antlerkov). So it might be political, and I do not want the constitutional debate to become political or partisan. If the ACE can agree to merge the two, I'd be all for it. If not, we'll figure some compromise out.

Anyway, I've started a seperate thread on the topic.

Thoughts?

[AdamTG02]

In chat, DBTS and I have gone through some ideas on impeachment. We both agree it should be judged by a 2/3 vote of the citizens, and to initiate an impeachment we would require that a majority of the Directors agree to impeach. Do you all like that idea? If a majority might be too partisan, one possibility is to have two Directors together be able to initiate an impeachment. The counterargument is that two directors might just as easily have a partisan vendetta as a majority might be in cahoots with a corrupt Commissioner. Since terms are only one month, it might be best to have impeachments only for drastic purposes -- i.e., purposes that a majority of Directors agree warrants impeachment.

[DeathByTheSword]

CRisler can you please change you first post and say that every one that want to talk about the constition or is a member of the committee is welcome to do that on IRC #smacdem
if some one wants to know how IRC works read ADAMTG02 post somewhere above

[Darkness' Edge]

a) Crisler's away
b) on impeachment, i would propose 66% of the citizens, but with, say, five citizen signatories necessary before it could be posted...
c) the same criticisms of the original document still stand

as i can't make the chats, could I pm some suggestions to you, adam?

[Pandemoniak]

adamtg: I was wondering if having Directors begin an impeachment might be a good way to compromise betwen the popular vote idea and the judge idea
pandemoniak81: hmm i still prefer a popular vote than a director vote. Either we have an impartial court, either we ask the citizens, who are impartial.
adamtg: makes sense
adamtg: DBTS wanted a majority of Directors to initiate an impeachment, which I thought might be overly difficult, but I went along with it becuase I'd rather have an overly difficult impeachment process than an overly easy one.
pandemoniak81: impeachmetn can only be casted if a director/commissioner made something against the UN constitution. Thus, it must be either a court, either the citizens. But a citizen cant just start a poll like that :snaps:, the court starts the poll, and citizens vote. Its my idea.
adamtg: hmm, that's a thought. My idea in having Directors initiate it was that, since the Commissioner must abide by the wishes of the Directors in their areas of expertise, the Directors can have him impeached for going against that. DBTS liked the idea, but wanted a majority of Directors.
pandemoniak81: only one director could start that ; a judge, some kind of director of justice.
adamtg: hmm. It should be a three judge panel, at least, so if one judge is influenced the others will be able to override.
pandemoniak81: ok, but some people not related to act on the game, judges, not directors.
adamtg: makes sense
pandemoniak81: thats what i meant by "impartial court"
adamtg: *nod*

[AdamTG02]

PMs are completely acceptable. Unless you object, I'll forward them on to the other committee members.

[DeathByTheSword]

Pande and Adam how do you want to start an impartial court. we arent that big as the DGcivIII game. i like the idea dont get me wrong. but i think you cant pull it off. that is way i think an majority (or two) directors WITH (liking that idea) some citizens can start an impeachment

[AdamTG02]

Maybe ten citizens including two Directors?
I'm not dead set on the judge idea, but I do think Pandemoniak may have a point that an independently commissioned judge or "watchdog" is more likely to be objective than a Director. It is a reasonable criticism, though -- where are we going to find a judge, or a thre judge panel, given that the vast majority of frequent posters belong to a party, and we would want a judge or panel free of party loyalties?

One argument might be that it is against the spirit of a demo game -- where citizens have opionions, and struggle to make those opinions heard -- to expect a judge to be totally objective. If you gave credence to that argument, either a petition of citizens or of Directors seems to be the way to go. I don't know what the right answer is -- I'm just trying to put ideas on the table.

[DeathByTheSword]

10 citizens is RIGHT NOW around 1/7 of the entire clan i think i can life with this idea tumbs up

[Pandemoniak]

Well, the ten citizens and two director sounds good, it could be our judiciar branch.

Though...

To Adam, a petition can be sent to the Court, and citizens are always the major influence on impeachment since they vote on impeachment, while the court only has its own vote. The thing is that its easy to make a impeachment with two directors and ten citizens, and people can start arguing like "he said something contrary to the constitution on must be impeached, etc..." but the Court has to said if someone can be impeached or not, according to reasons evoked by citizens in their petition. Dont take the Court as a power by itself, take it as a security and a guarantee for stability.

[Darkness' Edge]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Maybe ten citizens including two Directors?
I'm not dead set on the judge idea, but I do think Pandemoniak may have a point that an independently commissioned judge or "watchdog" is more likely to be objective than a Director. It is a reasonable criticism, though -- where are we going to find a judge, or a thre judge panel, given that the vast majority of frequent posters belong to a party, and we would want a judge or panel free of party loyalties?

A few things here.
Firstly, as far as an impeachment petition - I'm against having any required directors signatures. What if one party dominates government?

Secondly, a court/watchdog. I don't think it's necessary at this point in time. But if we did decide to create it, there are people around that could fill the positions. There are some clear independents, such as MWIA. But I'd also throw my hand up for a position - at the moment, I'm acting as a virtual independent, and it would be nothing for me to drop out of the party system.

Thirdly, on re-reading the state of the constitution above. I notice that there's notes questioning whether the consultation between directors needs to be formalised. As it stands, it is way, way, way too complicated. One director can of course, suggest something to another director, but each director should have a clear portfolio, and clear responsibilities, without having to consult with ten others first.

[DeathByTheSword]

about the 3th thingy from DE I agree with that Strongly no consultation only advicement

[DeathByTheSword]

THIS IS THE FIRST ARTICLE OF THE CONSTITUTION WITH ALL THE DISICIONS OF THE COMMITEE MADE THIS FAR AND AS I SEE THEM IF I AM WRONG>>> SORRY

THERE PROBABLY STILL SOME WRONG THINGIES IN THEM AND SOME STRAYED AWAY LINES IF YOU SEE THEM PLEASE GIVE ME THE CORRECTIONS FOR THE COMMITTE MEMBERS AND OFCOURCE ALSO FOR EVERONE ELSE IS THIS SOMETHING WE LIKE?

UN CONSTITUTION

This is the constitution that we, the people of the United Nations Peacekeepers, have decided upon. In it, we have declared that we shall form a government of the people, a Democracy, in which we shall choose who leads us. Our faction will be let by the people and for the people.

ARTICLE I: Commission Stucture

Executive Branch

This is the administrative section of our faction. The Executive branch is made up of the Commissioner and the Alpha Talent. These two are required to abide by the suggestions of the directors, who represent the will of the people.

Commissioner:
Has the right of:
*playing the game for the citizens
*act as he deems fit if there is an emergency
*advising any other part of the government

Has the duties of:
*following directors orders on there field of expertise
*posting SAV`s and turnlogs on the forum
*overall keeping the citizens aware of there situation.
*holding turnchat/threads ones every X times
*posting polls on how our bases should be named
*serving his faction the best he can

The Commissioner shall physically play the game.

Alpha-Talent:
Has the right of:
*acting as he deems fit if there is an emergency
*taking over the Commissioners seat with its right and duties if the current Commissioner is somehow not available.
*starting elections
* advising any other part of the government

Has the duties of:
*posting polls he hear the peoples voice
*posting elections polls
*serving his faction the best he can

The alpha talent is the second of the commissioner and is responsible for elections, finding out what the people want and helping the commissioner as best as his abilities let him.


Director Branch

Directors make up the directorate. Directors are elected in the area they oversee, and they have the task of informing and advising the people on our situation. They are required to conduct polls in order to interpret the people’s will. They are then to carry out that will, by giving their orders to the Commissioner.

All Directors are allowed to advise and consult with each other. They are also granted the right to petition for changes or actions from other Directors that may be critical to the their department. Ultimately, however, it is the Director in charge of his/her section that has the final say in how things are handled.

Director of Science:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*order the Commissioner what the next researched advancement is
*advising any other part of the government
*requesting buildings with the Director of buildings productions

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*giving his opinion to the director of foreign affairs about any talks, which effect his area, with other factions
*serving his faction the best he can

the director of Science shall choose the advancement to research

Director of Peacekeeping Operations:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*order the commissioner to move military units
*order the commissioner to design military new units, disband old military units and upgrade current military units.
*advising any other part of the government
*requesting buildings and military units with the Director of buildings productions.

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*giving his opinion to the director of foreign affairs about any talks, which effect his area, with other factions
*designating a portion of his units as exploration units
*serving his faction the best he can

May NOT:
Start wars if there hasn’t been official poll that says it is ok

The Director op Peacekeeping Operations has the control of all military units


Director of Foreign Affairs:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*ordering the commissioner on talks with foreign factions
*advising any other part of the government

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*maintaining good foreign connections
*giving his opinion to the director of Exploration and Intelligence on covert ops actions
*consulting for advice any other director if his area is being discussed with foreign factions
*serving his faction the best he can

May not:
Declare blood truce, peace, pacts if there hasn’t been a poll saying it is ok.

The Director of Foreign Affairs will do all foreign negotiations

Director of Energy and Industry:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*ordering the commissioner to rushbuild, use money in trades, change worker placements, and move crawlers
*advising any other part of the government
*requesting crawlers and buildings with the Director of buildings productions.

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*giving his opinion to the director of foreign affairs about any talks, which effect his area, with other factions
*serving his faction the best he can

This Director is responsible of the treasury expenditures, worker placements, and crawlers.

Director of Expansion and Terraforming:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*ordering the commissioner to move terraformers and colonypods
*ordering the commissioner to design new ET units, disband old ET units and upgrade current ET units
*advising any other part of the government
*requesting terraformers colonypods, and buildings with the Director of buildings productions.

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*serving his faction the best he can

Director of Expansion and Terraforming commands all colonypods and terraformers

Director of Social Engineering:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*ordering the commissioner to change the social engineering’s page
*advising any other part of the government

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*consulting for advice directors which are effected by changes made in the social engineering’s page
*serving his faction the best he can

May NOT:
Change the social engineering settings if there hasn’t been a poll saying it is ok.

The Director of Social Engineering is responsible for the social engineering’s page

Director of Exploration and Intelligence:
Has the right of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*ordering the commissioner to move any exploration units and covert ops units
*asking the director of Peacekeeping Operations for exploration units
*advising any other part of the government

has the duties of:
*starting polls to ask the people what there wishes are in his area
*listing to the will of the people in his area
*consulting the director of Foreign Affairs during covert ops actions
*giving back control of exploration units to the director of Peacekeeping Operations when the situation asks for it
*serving his faction the best he can

The Director Exploration and Intelligence is command of exploration units and covert ops units.

Director of Base productions
Has the right of:
*ordering the commissioner to build buildings and units
*advising any other part of the government
*starting polls about Special Projects

has the duties of:
*choosing between various requests made by the directors
*starting polls about Special Projects
*listing to the will of the people about the Special Projects
*serving his faction the best he can




THIS IS THE FIRST ARTICLE OF THE CONSTITUTION WITH ALL THE DISICIONS OF THE COMMITEE MADE THIS FAR AND AS I SEE THEM IF I AM WRONG>>> SORRY

THERE PROBABLY STILL SOME WRONG THINGIES IN THEM AND SOME STRAYED AWAY LINES IF YOU SEE THEM PLEASE GIVE ME THE CORRECTIONS FOR THE COMMITTE MEMBERS AND OFCOURCE ALSO FOR EVERONE ELSE IS THIS SOMETHING WE LIKE?

[DeathByTheSword]

so it is not final and probable not tottaly sound but here it is so far if you want to download it here it is

[DeathByTheSword]

i mean here

[Method]

you forgot director of base production

also perhaps a name change of industry and energy

[DeathByTheSword]

i knew i forgot something will update later

[DeathByTheSword]

what about the layout and the language i think it is simple but effective?

[Method]

i think its easier to understand than previous versions, like the one adam posted earlier.

i don't see article II or III. does this mean that we're leaving it how it is?

[DeathByTheSword]

updated the version. no this is only article one because if we start the elections i think it must be clear what the directors have to do. there will be an second article and maybe more this is just an idea and i like to now what everone think about it.

[Method]

ah, you got base production in there now

it all looks good

[lucky22]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
They are required to conduct polls in order to interrupt the people’s will.

"...interpret the people's will"

No other typo in this near-final draft looks egregious. Congratulations on a lot of hard work, you guys.

[DeathByTheSword]

ofcourse changing now but you like?

[lucky22]

see above edit... yes it is very solid.

[Maniac]

This poll says a function of the commissioner is to compile a list of base names for the citizens to choose from. Chief Archiver at your service.

[DeathByTheSword]

updating.....................updated

[Pandemoniak]

Excellent work, DBTS.

Just one quick remark : the contitutiton separates directoreates, and syas what has the effective powers and duties of these direcotrate, but it doesnt say EXACTLY what is the field of this directorate. Dont miss my point : I know that the Director of Social Engineer deals with SE, but if at some moments two directors claim something as in their own field (that can happen very quickly), there will have a problme.
I think we can fix that by either :
1. Using the Judge, the Court, or whatever we call him to make the choice.
2. Describe, in the constitution for each directorate the precise field and if any problem, ask the Commissioner to make a choice.
3. Make a poll about it : does it belong to aaa's field or to bbb's field ? (UN PK just love Bureaucracy, dont they ? ) and then consider or not the result as an amendment, meaning we will or wont have to re-do this poll for any other time the problem repeat.
4. Throw a banana.

[Method]

can you think of an example?

[Darkness' Edge]

One more thing - I just noticed the mention of governors in the constitution. I just don't see the need. It interferes with the work of the ministers, complicates things heaps - and I also opposed this when it was introduced in the Civ3 game. We're so much smaller than that - there's just no need.

[DeathByTheSword]

i removed that from article one DE....

and pande dont get me wrong but if you can give me an example i can put that in but i cant think of one