PBEM: New proposal

[The ANZAC]

*applause* That was....moving

[St Leo]

Only NOW has Civ3 provided a half decent editor and the basic fundamentals required to build scenarios worthy of the name.

Should I buy Civ3?

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Kull
Well Markos, your evil plan is finally coming to pass. The Scenario League stands on the verge of being bundled off to the dying Civ2 forums section there to slowly fade away. Because it IS the kiss of death for the Scenario League, as you well know. Comments like "it's only there until you guys broaden the focus" are pure puffery. Anyone who wants to discuss Civ3 Scenarios is NEVER going to show up in the Civ2 section.....so it doesn't matter what we're called if that's where we reside.

So now let's get to the heart of the matter - the Indictment of the Scenario League. Hauled up by the bailiffs we stand before MarkG, our judge and jury, accused of the most mortal of crimes, Irrelevancy! Three specific articles buttress this charge:

Article 1: Concentration upon Civ2
Article 2: Failure to develop CtP scenarios
Article 3: Failure to evolve to Civ3

Heinous crimes indeed, but this humble barrister would like to offer some words in defense - before you pass Sentence upon us.

Of the charges in Article One, "Concentration upon Civ2" we plead proudly and emphatically, Guilty! I offer up no defense, but point instead to Apolyton's own bulging archives of Civ2 scenarios. Look there MarkG, and see those that came before the Scenario League and compare them to all that issued forth in the many years since it's founding. Can CtP offer such a harvest? Civ3? Pick your game and it cannot hold a candle to the output inspired by those who gathered around the flame that was the Scenario League!

As for Article Two, "Failure to develop CtP scenarios", I cry foul sir! This argument, oft bruited against us, is naught but a canard. You know as well as I there never WERE any CtP scenarios. Massively impressive mod-packs, yes - but scenarios ala Civ2? No. You can count on the fingers of your hands the number of true scenarios that issued from that spare vineyard and the number of great ones is smaller by far. So do not accuse us of failing to deliver what even the Giants of that Game could not.

At last we come to Article Three, "Failure to evolve to Civ3". This is perhaps the most baseless charge of all. We speak of a game that did not allow the placing of UNITS ON A MAP until a little over a month ago! A game that has yet to master the intricacies of the FLAT MAP. Only NOW has Civ3 provided a half decent editor and the basic fundamentals required to build scenarios worthy of the name. The Craftsmen of the Scenario League did not spring fully formed from the ground on day one of Civ2. It was an evolutionary process. It took time.

So consider that before you pronounce our guilt. Before you hurl us into the black bowels of the Civ2 forums. Because then there will be no evolution. There will be no growth. All that will remain is the long, slow slide into oblivion.

Welcome back! In the nick of time, I'd say.

[MarkG]

Kull,

on August 21 we enforced my first suggestion. Here are the results

Posts in SL forum (minus the PBEM ones as they were moved) from Aug4-20: 183
Posts in SL forum from Aug21-Sep4: 311

Posts in PBEM forum from Aug4-20: 342
Posts in PBEM forum from Aug21-Sep4: 328

so if you count out the posts from all the discussions on the decisions(which happened before aug 21), it comes out that SL doubled it's forum traffic

So yes, my evil plan is working. SL is fading away into activity!

[Kull]

As to Part 1 of your evil plan, I actually agree. Yes PBEM is 99% based on scenarios, and yes the sleeg to some extent created and hosted this sub-genre. However, PBEM is not directly related to scenario creation, tool development, and game engine exploration. Those are and always will be the "core values" of the sleeg. As a side note, your statistics do seem to bear out my hypothesis:

1) Scenario League remains separate from the Civ2 Forums: Result = Increased traffic
2) PBEM moves from Sleeg to Civ2 Section: Result = Traffic decreases

[Chris 62]

Mark, it's not a good idea to move this forum, it and the SF are just fine as hosted sites.

If anything, kill the civ-2 creation forum, nobody posts there much.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Kull
Anyone who wants to discuss Civ3 Scenarios is NEVER going to show up in the Civ2 section.....so it doesn't matter what we're called if that's where we reside.

The only two hosted site forums were about Civ2, plus the Civ3 (creation) forums have plenty of activity by themselves. Even if this forum had stayed under the Hosted Sites heading, no Civ3 creation would have come even remotely close to the SL forum.
Actually, I can't remember anyone entering the SL forum with something else on his mind than Civ2 (with the odd exception of fairly active SL "members" who have interests in other games as well)
If ever Civ3 will provide enough support for scenarios (as good as or better than in Civ2), it will be the current visitors who will instigate this transition/addition, so the location of the forum has no bearing on this.

As for Article Two, "Failure to develop CtP scenarios", I cry foul sir! This argument, oft bruited against us, is naught but a canard. You know as well as I there never WERE any CtP scenarios. Massively impressive mod-packs, yes - but scenarios ala Civ2? No. You can count on the fingers of your hands the number of true scenarios that issued from that spare vineyard and the number of great ones is smaller by far. So do not accuse us of failing to deliver what even the Giants of that Game could not.

Ah, so it was possible to create scenarios? Nobody seemed to have held back overcoming the dificulties with Civ2... I'd say people just weren't interested.

At last we come to Article Three, "Failure to evolve to Civ3". This is perhaps the most baseless charge of all. We speak of a game that did not allow the placing of UNITS ON A MAP until a little over a month ago! A game that has yet to master the intricacies of the FLAT MAP. Only NOW has Civ3 provided a half decent editor and the basic fundamentals required to build scenarios worthy of the name. The Craftsmen of the Scenario League did not spring fully formed from the ground on day one of Civ2. It was an evolutionary process. It took time.

Yep... But when civ2 started off there was hardly an Internet community, while now there is a huge community, and huge experience with creators coming from Civ2 and CtP.
The first steps for making a Civ3 scenario can now be made, so why not get started?
Because the majority of Civ3 creators can be found in the Civ3 forums, and the majority of SL visitors are devoted to Civ2. No-one at the SLeague has ever held anyone back, I think, so if there really is interest among the frequenters of this forum, go for it.

So consider that before you pronounce our guilt. Before you hurl us into the black bowels of the Civ2 forums. Because then there will be no evolution. There will be no growth. All that will remain is the long, slow slide into oblivion.

I really just don't see what difference this would make, except that Civ2 people can find their way over more easily.

No matter how you twist or turn it, the Scenarios League is mainly devoted to Civ2. Most of the other games which might get covered too have their own Creation forums, so won't come 'round no matter where this forum is. If you want coverage of more games, it's going to have to come from "inside", or we'd have to "invite" people over... In either case, this forum being in the Civ2 section won't have any detrimental effect. MarkG has made it quite clear that discussion of other games is fine too, in which case this forum's place will be reconsidered.

MarkG

[Chris 62]

Way to listen Mark, you just doomed the SL to being obsolete.

Nice going.

[MarkG]

time will tell chris...

[Kull]

well, doesn't this suck.