PTW- Celtic Strategy Thread

[Objectivist]

Only 2 months remain until Civ3 PTW is released. With the release several new civs will be released, each with their own unique advantages and disadvantages. I think we have enough information to begin planning civ specific strategies for at least one civilization, the Celts.

First, lets review the facts.


Information thus far indicates that The Celts are a Religious and Militaristic civilization. This means that they begin the game with Ceremonial Burial and The Wheel or Warrior Code. Their UU is The Gallic Swordsman and is most likely available with the discovery of Iron Working. The stats of this unit are 4.2.2 (attack.defensive.movement) which appears to make this unit the most powerful offensive ancient era UU. This unit will have the Mobility and retreating ability of "fast" units and the Offensive power of Immortals, Knights, Elephants, Samurai, Raiders, or Medieval Infantry and will most likely cost the same or slightly more then the number of shields required to make a "Vanilla" swordsman or a Roman or Persian UU. This means that the Celts will have a unit almost as good as knights and elephants (and only a bit worse then Samurai and Raiders) many many turns before Chivalry is discovered. Looking at the cost of the "Vanilla" swordsman we see that it is 30 shields. If the Gallic swordsman has the same production cost then it is possible to produce 2.1 Gallic swordsmen for every Knight or Knight equivalent your opponent produces.

Applying the facts to form a strategy

Ancient Era

The Celts are a militaristic civ, in the early game the best possible application of this trait is to first claim as much territory as you can with settlers then to produce the reduced cost barracks in as many productive cities as possible. These barrack will allow you to begin producing Veteran Gallic Swordsmen. The Mobility, High Attack power, and decent defense of the Gallic Swordsman means that you are more then a match then any generic ancient era unit. Some of the Unique units might seem problematic but only a few of them should cause genuine concern. Hoplites and Legionaries should be your main concern followed by Mounted Warriors and Jaguar Warriors (though these should only be problematic in the very early game). The other early UUs should not concern you that much simply because your high attack and mobility values will allow you to pick off these units should they attempt to oppose you.

Hoplites and Legionaries, when fortified, are a near equal to the offensive power of Gallic Warriors. If there is a city wall or if the city is above size 6 these units will be more then a match for the Gallic Warriors. Against these two Civs your best bet is to concentrate your forces against their smaller/poorly defended cities. By doing this you force your opponent to one of two things. You opponent can either leave his defensive units in his core cities and make sure you cannot take them or he can deploy his forces in an attempt to stop your invasion and save his outer cities. Either approach will suit you perfectly. If he sacrifices his outer cities to defend his core he will be doing nothing but helping you and hurting himself in the long run, as each of these cities will help you more and more as the game progresses. (Indeed this is why you are producing Gallic Swordsmen in the first place). If he deploys his army in the open he will also be making your job somewhat easier in that you can use your mobility to force him to engage you in ground that favors you. By moving your forces and using positioning to threaten the right cities you can force him to engage you in grassland or plains. By doing so you can make victory more likely because the Legionaries and Hoplites will have a defense value of 3.1 while you will have an attack of 4 along side your 50% retreat ability. Against the Greeks you have to take extra care in concentrating your forces and using hit and fade tactics all because the Greeks can produce 2 hoplites for every Gallic Swordsman you can produce. Hoplites and Swordsmen could be quite painful if the swordsmen survive to counter your Gallic Swordsmen. For these reasons I recommend that you completely avoid attacking the Greeks and the Romans if they have secured a supply of iron. Actually I would recommend avoiding the Greeks entirely because there are usually easier pickings to be found from other civs, this is unless they simply have to be pruned before any other Civ.

Mounted Warriors are interesting opponents in that they have both a high level of mobility and a high attack value. However unlike your Gallic Swordsmen they have a mere defense of 1. This gives you a HUGE advantage when attacking and less then a point on the defensive. There is no point in risking losses by being sloppy with your attack. Jocky for positioning with their MW force until you can get the initial attack. If you cannot force them to move into a disadvantageous position then try to approach their cities from hilly or mountainous terrain, as this will minimize your defensive disadvantage. If this is not an option then I would recommend using a spearman stack to act as a forward decoy/meat shield if you wish to be cautious and save units at the cost of time. By keeping your Gallic Swordsmen one square behind your spearmen you can insure that the MW will either be forced to attack your spearmen or wait until you are within striking distance of his cities. If he chooses the first options and attacks your stack of spearmen then his army is yours. Though you might lose some spearmen to his initial strike, the remaining MWs will be weakened and will be on the defensive, which is not their strong point, own them and their ponies too. After Destroying their MW force the cities should fall as if you were facing any other civilization. If they hold back the MW force then you have no choice but to go forward with your stack of spearmen and Gallic Swords men. You should win eventually simply because of your intrinsic attack and defensive values. If you think your opponent might chose this option then your best bet would be to attack as soon as possible and forget the spearman stack. Such a battle will be a battle of attrition and every city you take is one less MW you have to face every few turns. In addition attacking quickly will give your opponent less time to mass their UU. Just remember that if the Irq. have a road network up they will be able to concentrate and receive their reinforcements faster then you will be able to. Thus it is of the utmost importance that your first Gallic Swordsman wave cripples or destroyers your opponent else you will be forced into a long war of attrition and you will incur significant opportunity costs, gaining much less territory and resources then you could have gained if you won quickly. Use your men wisely against the Irq. MW and try to win as quickly as possible as their mobility and high attack value gives them a good opportunity to not only turn back your attack but counterattack and take away cities from you if your attack wave fails.

The Aztecs and their Jaguar Warriors can be quite a problem for the Celts, but only very early in the game. Masses of Jaguar Warriors could cost you cities early, however once you discover bronze working (which should be a priority considering how valuable your UU is) the cost of taking a city away from you will be significantly more for the Aztecs. Given enough time you will be able to match the Aztecs in number of units because of the upkeep costs of maintaining a standing army. In addition your units will be superior to those of the Aztecs on both the offensive and defensive. Attrition favors you simply because you will be able to stack your units while you attack, thus taking away the Aztecs chief advantage of being able to concentrate their cheap units on a few units until they are dead. By doing this you will be able to take out their units and then heal after you take or raze a city. The best part is that if you ever find yourself in a situation where it looks like you might lose a significant part of your force you can simply retreat to a well defend city and heal because your are just as fast as the jaguar warriors. However, this is only possible if you can avoid being crippled in the very early game by a hard Aztec jaguar warrior rush. The best advice I can give you to try to get masonry and bronze working ASAP to make invading your territory an expensive proposition for the Aztecs by using spearmen and city walls. Hopefully this will deter them into attacking other civs while you can strengthen your position and get your UU. However if they attack another civ and make significant gains you might be forced to attack prematurely simply to force them into a 2 front war so you can prevent them from become too strong and thus impossible to beat. All in all the Aztecs will be an extremely difficult early game opponent to beat, especially since they have the exact same civ traits you have. The entire course of the Aztecs vs. Celt conflict will be decided in the very early portions of the game.

The final worrisome UU in the ancient era is the Persian Immortal. If you play your cards right this units should be nothing more then a minor nuisance, just like every other swordsman unit out there. If the Persians are on the offensive you can easily crush them, simply due to your higher mobility and access to roads. Whenever they move into attack range your can simply attack giving you the 4-2 attack advantage in the match up. There is no way for the Persians to use their 4 attack point in an offensive against you. They can however be quite effectively used with roads on the defensive. To counter this possibility you should pillage Persian roads that link their cities together, assuming you will not be left in a vulnerable position. Another possibility is to make them disperse their forces by attacking at multiple positions at once. You then use your mobility to pillage the connections and attacking the cities where you can concentrate your forces faster then your Persian opponent could.

Middle Ages

The Middle Ages will bring 3 new generic units into the fray making the Celtic UU more difficult to use on the offensive. These units are the Knight, Pikemen, and Medieval Infantry. These units if used effectivly in combination will allow any player to counter your force of Gallic swordsmen. However you do have an opportunity to stop this and limit them to ancient era units and possibly long bowmen. You should have a large force of Gallic Swordsmen at the end of the ancient era after you’ve pruned and/or eliminated a civilization or two. You can use this force to completely cut off a civilizations source of Iron. By doing this you can add one more civilization's land to your burgeoning empire. On a side note a force of just Medieval Infantry can be treated the same way you would treat Persian Immortals. A force of force of Pikemen and Medieval Infantry can be treated with just a little bit more respect then a Greek Hoplite/Swordsmen combo, maybe a little less because of the increased shield cost of Pikemen and MI. A force of all three should be treated with the utmost respect. I would avoid using MI in such a situation simply cause this would reduce your overall mobility. A force of Knights and Gallic swordsmen would have the offensive and defensive capabilities of the units mentioned thus far, but would also maintain the advantages of mobility that were already pointed out. Musketmen render the Gallic Swordsmen obsolete on the offensive, but your remaining swordsmen can still be used to counterattack cavalry, so oddly enough Gallic Swordsmen are still somewhat useful well into the Industrial Era.

Bringing it all together

Looking at the combat traits of the Celtic UU and their Civilization traits we can conclude that the best possible strategy for the Celts is one REX followed by Military conquest of the neighboring civs in the Ancient and possibly the Medieval eras followed by a program of building cheap temples to secure your city radiuses and to prevent your cites from being culturally absorbed. After this I would recommend that you try to build city improvements so that you do not fall to far behind, compared to the other civs, in terms of culture, technology, and income. If you are able to fully utilize your gains from the use of your UU in ancient and medieval times then you should become an unstoppable power as the game progresses, especially if you managed to build some ancient or medieval wonders with Leaders.

[Aeson]

If they do release with a 4.2.2 Swordsman UU, there really isn't much need for strategy. No way a UU should have the highest attack and best movement in the ancient era, along with the best defense under certain conditions in the field. They'd be able to retreat from the only basic units which have a higher offense than their defense. MW's would be the only units which could kill them with any efficiency. I think they'd have to be a replacement for Medieval Infantry. All other UU's only have a +1 attribute to one A/D/M value.

Very well written article though.

[Mad Cleric]

Hm, I agree, very well written.

BUT, if the celts do get this "awesome" unit, more then likely, Firaxis will degrade it to compensate for their strng traits, this woould make the game very uneven, and even if the celts have this, why are you spoiling it for the rest of us?

[Mad Cleric]

Being the warmonger I am, I would most likely use this unit so that NO-ONE would be left to fight, combined with roads and catapult, this unit is much to strong, and by the time that you do get these "new" units, it will be too late for sorry.

And, the celtics will make multiplayer a VERY uneven game.

[Mad Cleric]

Another thing, how did you get all this information?

I am curious, is it not illegal to send out company information when the game has not yet be released, copy right violations perhaps?

[Mad Cleric]

Hrmph, interesting, the "medievil infantry," obviously another violation of Firaxis copy right, you could be charged my friend, but thanks for the information.

[Objectivist]

All screen shots were taken from www.gamespy.com so Im not releasing any information that isnt already public knowledge (as I dont have access to this information ince I dont work for Fireaxis).

In regards to the unit stats I think that in the retail stats of the UU will most likely be 3.2.2. This change shouldnt affect the celtic early strategy that much though, you might just take more losses then you normal would have on the offensive. They might also leave the UU stats at 4.2.2 and just increase the cost of the unit compared to regular swordsmen.

[Catt]

As I argued just recently in the General Forum, screenshots are notoriously inaccurate as far as "true gameplay" goes. The Marketing guys set up screenshots to highlight several attributes at once. When the first screenshots were released at E3, wasn't there a big brouhaha because the Spanish Conquistador (5.3.2 ??) was shown on a screen where the Spainards were still researching Feudalism? And then there was some talk of it being a "no resources" UU supplementing (but not replacing) cavalry? I remeber a lot of excited talk about the strength of the Spanish UU given where it fell in the tech tree until someone from Firaxis pointed out that the screenshots were taken from radically modded games in order to get "great shots."

Also, the specific ADM stats are notoriously subject to adjustment before release - the game designers play with the units a bunch in an effort to reach the right game balance (which may not be our notion of the right balance, but they get to make those decisions for the standard game ). Take a look at the reference section of the manual for the ADM stats of the various units. Particularly in the industrial and modern age, the ADM stats are wrong on a big number of units. Even in the fist couple of chapters of the manual, in describing each unique civ, I remember that the Chinese Rider was listed as the Chinese UU with ADM of 2.2.2, replacing the Horsemen.

The changes go for civ traits as well - China is listed in the manual as Ind - Sci; Rome as Ind - Com (IIRC); and, IIRC, Persia as Ind - Mil. Might be other differences as well.

By all means have fun writing strategy threads for the new civs, but don't be disappointed if the initial info released through screenshots turns out to be quite different from what is actually released in PTW.

Catt

[Objectivist]

Very well made points, however the information released thus far about the Celts makes perfect sense. The Druids played a large role in Celtic soceity, so it is easy to see why religous would be one of their civ specific traits. In addition the Celts frequently fought with both the Romans and neighboring barbarian tribes, thus the militaristic trait makes sense also. Finally the Celts fought with Longswords which were not the standard fighting swords of the time (the gladius was the standard fighting sword of the Romans), thus it makes sense that the UU is a swordsman unit. In addition we can be sure that the Celtic UU is an ancient era unit simply because the Celts were all killed off/assimilated by the Romans before the Middle ages ever began historically. So in conclusion I think its save to say that all the information we have on the Celts is accurate except that they're UU maybe be 3.2.2 not 4.2.2.

I took the initative to make a senario in which you play as the "Celts". You start with warrior code and cermonial burial and your "Gallic swordsman" is available with the discovery of ironworking. Its stats are 3.2.2 and it costs the same as a regular swordsman. Feel free to post your results here and to post possible Gallic strategies. Your opponents are the ancient era civs. I wouldnt recommend making any assumptions as to the usefulness of the Gallic UU beyond the first few techs in the ancient era as there is no telling what new techs/units will be available in PTW. Enjoy the MOD and good luck.

[Nakar Gabab]

Has it dawned on you that the celtic UU will not be an ancient UU? Just because it says "swordsman," doesn't mean it's a swordsman-replacement.

The side-by-side comparison with Medieval Infantry leads me to conclude that they are a faster MeI, not a super swordsman. If indeed these stats remain as they are, I think this is a pretty obvious conclusion.

[Strakorfsky]

Well, I would like the link you got this from, not a picture from nothingness, until then, I will be a skeptic.

[Objectivist]

Nakar Your a Moron

1. Historically the Celts were obliterated as an independent group by the Romans a good 500 years before the Mid. Ages even began. (Which incidentaly began with the end of the Western portion of the Roman Empire, which was centered in Rome). Considering this fact it would make no sense historically if they made the Celtic UU available in the Middle Ages as a sort of upgraded Mideval Infantry.

2. The screenshot clearly shows that the Celtic Player is reasearching horseback riding while haveing a golden age and using his UU. The stats of the unit might be from a MOD and not final for the actual game, but its presense in the ancient era in the screen shot makes perfect sense if you consider the first fact.

[Objectivist]

http://www.gamespy.com/previews/augu...eenshots.shtml

[Bambul]

I do remember someone from Firaxis mentioning that the stats for Med Infantry were continously changing but the current one was 4/2/1. Seeing as stats are always changinh (as in the manual) I wouldn't be surprised if the Celt UU ended up being a beefed up version of Ironclad.

For those that didn't get the sarcasm, I think you're taking this a bit too far and a bit too seriously.

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Objectivist
Nakar Your a Moron

1. Historically the Celts were obliterated as an independent group by the Romans a good 500 years before the Mid. Ages even began. (Which incidentaly began with the end of the Western portion of the Roman Empire, which was centered in Rome). Considering this fact it would make no sense historically if they made the Celtic UU available in the Middle Ages as a sort of upgraded Mideval Infantry.

2. The screenshot clearly shows that the Celtic Player is reasearching horseback riding while haveing a golden age and using his UU. The stats of the unit might be from a MOD and not final for the actual game, but its presense in the ancient era in the screen shot makes perfect sense if you consider the first fact.

I try not to think of myself as a moron. I couldn't say what you are.

I did notice the time difference, but I have to say: Look at the stats. UNLESS Firaxis is doing something highly unusual with the new civs in general, there is simply no logical reason why the celts would receive a unit which has both the attack strength of an Immortal AND the movement benefit of an Impi/Jaguar Warrior/Etc. Thus, either Firaxis is doing something very strange with UUs, or the Celtic Swordsman is not a Swordsman replacement.

Historical arguments don't hold much water. Just because the celts as a major civilization didn't exist into what we'd call the "middle ages" doesn't mean the UU couldn't fudge a little. Besides, Medieval Infantry might come before the Middle Ages (strange as it sounds, but note the picture: Researching Monotheism, indicating it hasn't been the Middle Ages for long, if at all).

The point is, most UUs have a singular advantage over the units they replace (1 extra defense, offense, movement); the exception to this is the War Elephant, which requires no resources (and, it would appear, the Spanish UU is slightly cheaper, but weaker, than the unit it complements). I can see no logical reason why the celts would get a UU better than every other unit in the ancient era.

[notyoueither]

All I have to say is bravo.

Good analysis based on preliminary information. Much of your reasoning seems sound based on the assumptions and historical fact.



I do have one other thing to add...

Gallia delenda est!

[Objectivist]

Looks like i may have been right about the stat mods on the celtic swordsman. This is taken from the latest bunch of screenshots released.

[Catt]

For the record - I'm really not trying to rain on your parade (though it may seem like it). If I had to guess, I'd say that, IMHO, it's quite likely that the Celt's UU's ADM stats are probably 3.2.2 and the UU replaces the swordsman, just as you predict.

But . . . a familiar screenshot just appeared (8/30/02) on the official Civ 3 website (www.civ3.com) -- see below.

I post just to say that I really don't think anyone can come to any conclusions about what PtW has in store - it's still up in the air.

Catt

[Catt]

And another, from playtesters at IGN.

This one also supports the concept of a 3.2.2 swordsman, but notice that this one is named a "Gallic Swordsman" whereas the screen shot Objectivist posted is labeled "Celtic Glory" -- Celtic Glory could very well be a "named unit" since it appears that it is an elite unit that has generated a leader.

Catt

[Aeson]

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#ptw (Scroll down a bit)

Personally they don't look too balanced. 3.2.2 is still a bit overwhelming when combined with Rel/Mil. It's a mounted warrior with better defense.

The 5.3.3 Conquistador looks a bit insane as well. Treats all terrain as roads? That would be 9 moves in enemy territory over any terrain. They might not be as strong on offense, but you could easily rip apart someone's infrastructure in no time with these, always ending your turn on good defensive terrain.

On water maps though, Vikings could be lots of fun.

[Catt]

I agree. I don't know what we'll end up with, but a 3.2.2 swordsman in a Militaristic civ just strikes me as the end of tactics (but that's what playtesting is for!). Fastest ancient age unit, combined with the strongest offensive AND defensive stats in the ancient age (except, in each single case, for a single UU from another civ), in a civ with access to cheap barracks and frequent unit promotions. And now apparently a somewhat viable upgrade path (although, if the Med Inf turns out to be 4.2.1, I'd probably be inclined to keep my Celtic Swords around until guerillas, just as I keep hoplites around until riflemen / infantry).

I have got to believe that the Conquistador will be either a 3-move unit or a 1-move unit with all terrain as roads.

It's fun to speculate, but I gotta repeat that we won't know what we've got until the X-pack is released.

Catt

[Objectivist]

Yea, Catt your right, I have no way of knowing for sure about what the stats are, but it is fun to speculate, not to mention by writing this thread I could make sure I was writing a strategy that had not yet been covered in this forum. Finally I think that to balance the Celtic UU they "might" increase the shield price to handicap what looks like an awesome ancient era unit, or maybe require that it has two reasources or something like that.

[Nakar Gabab]

But what resources could they require? Iron? Well, all swordsmen-units use iron. Not much balance help there. Horses? But he's not on a horse! Oh well, that doesn't stop Samurai...

Are there any other ancient age resources? I can't think of any.

As to shield costs... who cares if it costs more? It's worth it, and that aside, just do a mass-upgrade with warriors. Wham-bam, thank you ma'am, you've got a Gallic Swordsman army, ready to swarm. This could be interesting.

[Admiral PJ]

Celts are the best, so they should get the best UU :>
the scots were great fighters, to the point of stupidity (my mums scottish)

Just cut off their iron and make sure your good friends with them before gunpowder comes along and you can defend with your musketmen against the celt swordmen.

I've always been scared of men with red hair anyhow

I don't believe the celt swordsman will be 4.2.2 in the final game.. although maybe they've given all units +1 movement to make realistic retreat strategies(some would stay at 1 of course like hoplites etc)

[Arrian]

A 3/2/2 swordsman? That's insane. Build 20 vet warriors, save 800 gold, hook up iron, upgrade, and destroy the world. They're like the MW on steroids. Nothing can really stop them until Knights. If you aren't the most powerful civ in the world by then, I don't know what went wrong. You only really need to research 2 techs (BW, IW).

-Arrian

[alexman]

I think Aeson summed it up: If they release such a unit, there is no need for strategy.

[Objectivist]

I am vindicated. PTW is out and the Celtic UU has the following stats.

3 Attack
2 Defense
2 Movement

50 shield cost
(Regular swordsman is 30)

Im not entirely sure what the upgrade cost for warrior to Celtic swordsman is but im pretty sure its probably a bit more then your standard upgrade cost (which is 40 gold). Either way my guess was right.

[alexman]

It's 80 gold per upgraded unit.
Although I don't have PtW yet, I think the 50 shield cost is about right for this very powerful unit.

[vmxa1]

Arrian, I am not so sure that they will chop up Numidian Merc at 231 when forted in a city. But they will be bad news.

[Objectivist]

The Greeks will give the Celts a much harder time then the Carthagians will simply because of the comparitive production rates of the units. In order of difficulty, the Celts will have the most trouble with..... (ancient civs)

1. The Greeks

The Greeks can produce hoplites at a very fast rate when compared to the production rate of the GS (Gallic Swordsman). The Greeks can make 5 Hoplites (1.3.1) for every 2 GS a Celtic player makes. Combine this with the fact that given half a chance a Greek player will pillage your Iron and fortify itself on your hill/mountain.

2. Romans

Same as Greek but cost a bit more, they are also much better at countering any weakened CS.

3. Iriquois

Mounted Warriors not only cost less then GS but also have the same mobility making it difficult to control place of engagement. On the plus side they have 1 less defense.


4. Carthage
Numidans are almost the same as Greek units operationally but cost a bit more. (10 shields more) (I wouldnt waste these expensive units on an attack unless I was close to taking an important strategic objective in that turn)

5. Persians

Immortals are awesome on the offensive in the ancient era. Your best bet against these beasties is to use mobility to attack them instead of trying to defend against them. They can still be a tough opponent if they use a spearman screen correctly to make your GS vulnerable to their Immortals.

Since PTW is out I encourage people to not only contribute to this thread, but to also post other PTW and Civ specific stratigies.