Which religion you belong to?

[Provost Harrison]

Atheist...

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Ive learned to put my faith in only to places, for my own good. 1) myself. If i let my own dumb ass down, I cant blame anybody else but myself. And 2) science/mathematics. It has yet to either let me down or be uninteresting

Hmmm...someone remind me of Einstein's POV on God...

[Provost Harrison]

God does not play dice?

He's more of a poker man

[The Mad Monk]

Reformed Church in America, BTW.

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Deist here.

[Eli]

Zionism is not a religion sherlock.

[Mr. President]

He forgot communism.

[Sonic]

Communists are atheists, mr. president

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Pres, Sonic-- Communism is an economic/political system. Atheism is the lack of a religion.

And not all communists were atheists. Our own Monkspider is both Communist and Christian-- in fact, he's been building arguments that the Bible is pro-Communism.

My advice: Don't take American political (mis)conceptions to be the infallible truth.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Mr. President
He forgot communism.

Demonstrating your 'stereotypically American' ignorance on the issue eh? Dubya would be proud

[Sonic]

Obviously not all communists are atheists, but most are. So, communist ussual "religion" is atheism and thus I don't need to add communist option (communism is not a religion in fact).

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Why is Baptist included separately from Christian Protestant, but none of the other Protentant subdivisions are?

Its by far the largest Protestant religion in the US.

And atheism is most certainly a religion since it makes a statement about the universe which cannot be proven.

While Atheism is a religious belief it is not a religion since a religion entails a belief in at least some kind of higher power or creator. The active disbelief of many Atheists does not constitute that.

So you can say its a religious belief which I sometimes do just to annoy the hardcore Atheists you cannot call it religion.

This pole really did need an agnostic option. I am not an Aetheist. I have NO religious beliefs not even a disbelief in a god. I just doubt the existence of one and see no need for one to explain the Universe.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Hmmm...someone remind me of Einstein's POV on God...

While Einstein often spoke of god in terms that sounded like he believed in a god it seems mostly matter of putting a label of convenience on his thinking. Think of it as objectifying the laws of nature.

Einstein on this subject:

From

http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. "

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature."

From

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ebtomcat.htm

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

From

http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/quotes.html

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

I would guess that he was halfway between an Agnostic and a Deist.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ethelred
This pole really did need an agnostic option. I am not an Aetheist. I have NO religious beliefs not even a disbelief in a god. I just doubt the existence of one and see no need for one to explain the Universe.

Atheism covers "doesn't believe in god(s)" as well as "actively disbelieves in god(s)." Often the former is called weak atheism while the latter is called strong atheism. (This is mostly done so that weak atheists don't get lumped together with strong atheists, since most hardcore idiot atheists belong to the latter group.)

It's possible to be an agnostic and still believe in god(s), since an agnostic believes that god's existence hasn't been proven or that it can never be proven--it therefore isn't contradictory for an agnostic to believe in god yet still believe that god's existence can never be proven, since belief and proof are two very different things.

[Bosh]

And atheism is most certainly a religion since it makes a statement about the universe which cannot be proven.

Usually not, most atheists don't make any definitive statements about god, just don't see any reason to believe in a god so they don't, which is different from agnostics who are more unsure about things, so at least according to my definitions, Ethelred is a weak atheist rather than an agnostic since an agnostic would give god a bit more of a benefit of the doubt, of course a lot of people would disagree with me on that.

Personally I like infidel, since it sounds stronger than agnostic and you're less likely to get people misintertreting your position and asking questions like "but how can you PROVE that god doesn't exist" with that label...

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by loinburger


Atheism covers "doesn't believe in god(s)" as well as "actively disbelieves in god(s)." Often the former is called weak atheism while the latter is called strong atheism. (This is mostly done so that weak atheists don't get lumped together with strong atheists, since most hardcore idiot atheists belong to the latter group.)

This is nothing but an attempt to blur the distinction between true Agnostics and full blown Atheists. Simply put there a lot of people that call themselves Atheist when they actually Agnostic. Its not the fault of the Agnostics that some people want to blur the distinction or lie and call it fence sitting to try to intimdate Agnostics into going on belief.(See Slowhands Troll thread for further discussion and further attempts to intimidate).

It's possible to be an agnostic and still believe in god(s), since an agnostic believes that god's existence hasn't been proven or that it can never be proven--it therefore isn't contradictory for an agnostic to believe in god yet still believe that god's existence can never be proven, since belief and proof are two very different things.

Thats not agnosticism. That would be a weak Deist. That is a, Deist that thinks he may be wrong but understands that he can never know. Unless of course a god should decide to prove its existance, something that would be difficult since it is possible to have godlike entities that only appear to be able to confound the laws of the Universe.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Boshko

Personally I like infidel, since it sounds stronger than agnostic and you're less likely to get people misintertreting your position and asking questions like "but how can you PROVE that god doesn't exist" with that label...

Oddly enough Infidel actually has specific meaning but it has been coopted by Christians to mean something exactly the opposite of its original meaning. Its a Arab word and is used to refer to ALL non Moslems. If you aren't Moslem your an Infidel even if you are one of the peoples of the Book (Moslems, Jews, and Christians). Apparently this irked the Crusaders and they took to calling Moslems infidels.

As for people asking that question, well thats point of Agnosticism. You can't prove it and belief is not an issue for the Agnositic as they choose not to go on belief.

The problem is the two terms are somewhat the reverse of their root words. Agnostic is litterly without god and Atheist is literally without religion yet the actuall definitions are the reverse. I can't help that. I am not the cause of that confusion. I just learn to deal with it.

[CapitanGarlic]

I thought Einstein was Jewish...

Lutheran, here, btw.

[DeepO]

I thought that Agnosts were a specific branch (like Protestants) of Christianity, that believed that maybe there is a God, maybe not, but as it can't be proven everybody should look for a God within himself. They were extinguished in the 4th Century IIRC, but both Cathars and Freemasons take religious points from this ancient religion. (e.g. the pyramid with God's eye shining is an Agnostic symbol, now a freemason one).

And in my mind, there is a big difference between Atheists and those that don't believe (whether you call these weak atheists are not): Atheists are only those that believe there is no God, and even have proof for it.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think that is the Gnostics you are talking about DeepO.

[Aeson]

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

gnostic

\Gnos"tic\, n. [L. gnosticus, Gr. ? good at knowing, sagacious; as a n., man that claims to have a deeper wisdom, fr. gignw`skein to know: cf. F. gnostique. See Know.] (Eccl. Hist.) One of the so-called philosophers in the first ages of Christianity, who claimed a true philosophical interpretation of the Christian religion. Their system combined Oriental theology and Greek philosophy with the doctrines of Christianity. They held that all natures, intelligible, intellectual, and material, are derived from the Deity by successive emanations, which they called Eons.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

[Jon Miller]

wow, a lot of atheists here (I don't remember past polls being so atheist heavy)

Jon Miller

[DeepO]

Thanks Aeson, I already wondered why I wasn't able to find a link on them

So, of to search for gnostics then

DeepO

[Aeson]

Probably at least a few agnostic votes that ended up atheist because it was the closest option.

[Aeson]

It'll be a long search if they really were wiped out 4th-5th century AD

[DeepO]

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html
is a good one... Christianity was not always so forgiving...

DeepO

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ethelred
This is nothing but an attempt to blur the distinction between true Agnostics and full blown Atheists.
...
Thats not agnosticism.

Agnosticism is not a metaphysical belief, it is an epistemological belief. You can believe in god(s) (a metaphysical belief) even though you don't believe that said god(s) can be proven to exist (an epistemological belief). So if somebody says "do you believe in God," and you respond "I'm an Agnostic," then you've failed to answer their question.

[Aeson]

It's an answer to the question, even if it's not a very good one. The question itself isn't very good, as 'God' is an extremely ambiguous term.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by CapitanGarlic
I thought Einstein was Jewish...

Lots of Jews aren't members of the religion. Think of it as one name for two things. A religion and an ethnic group. There a lot of agnostic Jews in the US. Just as there are a lot of agnostic Irish.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by DeepO


And in my mind, there is a big difference between Atheists and those that don't believe (whether you call these weak atheists are not): Atheists are only those that believe there is no God, and even have proof for it.

DeepO

No such thing.Can you to show me an Atheist with proof? Real proof, not some delusion, like that life is crap therefor god does not exist sort of nonsense.