FP+Palace placement

[sabrewolf]

i've never figured out, where's the optimal place to build the foreign palace and possibly move the palace.

i'm mostly tempted to place the FP somewhere far away in captured cities to spread the corruption to a minimum. but the trouble lies in the time loss... an earlier FP will pay a lot longer than a late one (duh!)

also, moving my capital... usually a very expensive thing to do and i hate losing my core city's advantages. usually the first 2-3 cities have the best trade and science (i like going for colossus, copernicus observatory, newton's university in the same city) and good production (vitually no corruption). so a palace move doesn't really pay (so i think)

now, what do you do:
1) build FP in middle of (e.g.) continent or world still in your own early territory
2) build FP very late, but on the opposite side of the world (best corruption spreading)
3) build FP near to capital (just a few cities, maybe near you long-time enemy), move capital later somewhere else
4) other solution

btw: i mostly play standard/emperor, recently deity/emperor (aaaargh, AI mostly beats me to ancient wonders ;( )

[candybo]

Like all else, it depends on the individual game. That said, I usually like to build it sooner than later, in a city I founded. Often I will send a settler way out, beyond my "homeland", specifically to be designated the "FP city", for future benefits. Just make sure it's defended, and aquaducted... And that's my 2 BananaDollars

[Harovan]

I mostly use option 3. To build the FP pays even if it's not located optimally. On the first opportunity I relocate my palace then, either with a leader or a free palace jump.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I mostly use option 3. To build the FP pays even if it's not located optimally. On the first opportunity I relocate my palace then, either with a leader or a free palace jump.

free palace jump? when do you get that?
i've only seen that, when my capital gets captured/razed, or as you said, with a great leader

[Harovan]

Free Palace Jump: If you disband your capital either by the right-click option or by building a settler with no food surplus, the palace jumps to the next biggest city. Note, that the presence of wonders also counts as population, but not I'm sure as how many pop units it counts.

Here's the general plan:

• Build the FP near your capital in a city, surrounded by others (i.e. not a coastal city).
• Build workers in all your cities, till they are all size 3 at most. None of the cities shall have a wonder, or the result will be unpredictable.
• Add some workers to the target city, so that it is at least size 6. You may need to build/rush a temple or hook up luxuries for this.
• Disband your old capital, if possible by building a settler. Rebuild it instantly.
• You will find the palace in the target (>6 size) city.

[sabrewolf]

thanks for the info. but this means, all advantages (culture bonus from old temples, wonders) of the city are lost. i guess it's worth it, if your capital has too much useless terrain (only desert, mountains, too much sea, etc.). usually i'd move my settler a few tiles in the beginning to get a better location in such a case.

[Harovan]

You are right about the city improvements. The solution is, don't build any, if you intend to make a free palace jump. I let my capital produce only settlers and defenders, so that's not an issue.

[Arrian]

I generally go with option (4), other solution:

I fight. Besides hurting my opponent(s), I hope to generate great leaders, one of which will be used to rush the FP. The sooner the better.

If I decide not to fight early on, or if my capitol starts off close to the coast (not optimal for corruption), I may build the FP one city inland and rush the Palace w/a leader. That way my original core remains intact, and I get an early boost to my outlying cities.

-Arrian

[Artifex]

Bump.

There are too few threads on this very important subject. FP placement strategies are the cornerstone of the game and can really make or break it at Emperor-Diety levels.

Intersting strategy about sending a settler out early and making a FP city for future placement. I might have to try that out next time.

In my current game (Japan,Large, 12 civs, Emperor) FP placement is what really befuddled me the most. After every great leader I coudln't bring myself to use it on an FP because my empire had not expanded enough too get any benifit. I built, Great Library, Sistine, and with my 3rd one decided to build an army and get the heroic epic.

I decided to try a new strategy. Build the FP at a good site close to palace. I chose a second ring of cities right next to my first core ring. The designated FP city had a good mix of hills, some wine resources, 2 mountians, and an iron resource. So in the future there is a possibility of an Ironworks.

Then with my next leader I plan on moving my palace over to Former Russian territory which I ruthlessy razzed and pillaged I might add. Gotta love those Samurai.

I am just wondering how much I should build up my core group of cities around my Palace before moving the palace with my next GL.

I built courthouses in all of them, libraries, harbors, marketplaces, cathedrals, temples.

I am wondering if building universities in all these cities woudl be overkill sinc eI am moving the palace away? Also I am right at education in the tech tree and wondering if it is too early to make my first palace jump with my next GL. I don't have police stations in my first core since I don;t have that tech, I wonder if courthouses and the improvements listed will be enough to insure thier productivity in the future.

[Arrian]

It depends on just how close your FP is to your current Palace location. It may be close enough that your current core cities will remain relatively productive after you move your palace. It may not. Impossible to tell w/o seeing it. Plus, I'm not used to Large maps, so even if I saw the map I might not have the answer. Best way to find out: try it.

Remember, WLTKD is really great for waste-fighting. IIRC, it only helps shield waste, not gold corruption.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Artifex
I am just wondering how much I should build up my core group of cities around my Palace before moving the palace with my next GL.

I built courthouses in all of them, libraries, harbors, marketplaces, cathedrals, temples.

I am wondering if building universities in all these cities woudl be overkill sinc eI am moving the palace away? Also I am right at education in the tech tree and wondering if it is too early to make my first palace jump with my next GL. I don't have police stations in my first core since I don;t have that tech, I wonder if courthouses and the improvements listed will be enough to insure thier productivity in the future.

I feel like I'm following you around on this one, Artifex but I agree with you and also feel that great Palace and FP locations are an underappreciated and under-discussed subject - securing two functional cores as early as possible is a huge advantage, especially when competing with the production advantages of the AI above Regent.

In your specific situation, I would say that you have more than enough development in your initial core. I probably wouldn't hesitate to relocate my Palace into the former Russian territory. With temples, cathedrals, marketplaces, courthouses, and a centrally located FP, you're definitely good to go. When you finally do discover Communism, build police stations as well, but I wouldn't wait the many, many turns it will take to get to Communism to relocate the palace - your core will do fine and its best to have a second core up and running earlier rather than later. I also wouldn't worry about universities in the context of a palace move - by all means build univ's for the research and/or culture effects, but they really won't do anything in regards to the Palace / FP issue (and I suspect you will lose very little production in your first core, so you can freely build univ's after the palace relocation whenever it suits your needs).

It sounds to me like you have an ideal situation for a palace relocation. Go for it as soon as a leader appears!

I'm reposting a screenshot I posted in the General Disucssions thread a week or so ago (the thread seems to have died). A couple of points on the map below. The game was a small map, Emperor level - this means that OCN for the game is 9 (in Artifex's game the OCN would be much higher). The map shot was also taken before I had wiped out the Zulu in the south (that's why my 4th Palace seems to be located in foreign territory). I expect each palace relocation to allow full infrastructure development in 4 - 5 cities (represented by the "rings of influence"), with several key enablers like factories, courthouses, police stations in several others. I also expect that, once I relocate the palace again, the "infrasturcture complete" cities will again suffer from significant corruption, but that the effect of the improvements will make the corruption levels seem more manageable. As a specific example, both the "Palace #2 city" and the city to its southeast (farther away and so not benefiting from the Palace #3 city or FP after the palace move) continued to generate substantial commerce and shields after the Palace was moved away from that area of the continent.

Catt

[Arrian]

I absolutely agree that the palace/fp setup is perhaps THE most crucial element of the game if you want to out-produce and out-research the AI on levels higher than regent. The earlier you have a FP, the better. Obviously, it can make sense to wait a bit if you know you will soon have an optimal site, but sooner is almost always better than later.

There are several geographic situations you may find yourself in:

1) alone on a small/medium continent. The closest to this I've really dealt with was MTIII (?), where we (Japan) started on a medium continent with the Iroquois and English. I, and just about everyone else, built the forbidden in the dead center of the continent. I later moved my palace with little drop in productivity from my original cities. A FP that was a bit more off-center may have been more optimal, but would have been worse once the palace was moved. Given that the move was done late in the game for me, that may have been better, but in most situations, it's probably best to center the FP and move your Palace to another island/continent asap for maximum productivity.

2) Largish, but oddly shaped continent. Not Catt's example above (that's closer to #3, IMO). Something that does not allow for a good "barbell" setup. In this case, it is best to have your palace and FP far enough apart where they don't overlap much, but once that requirement is met, don't worry about getting the max number of cities within their respective radii. I would argue it is better to pick your spots based upon terrain. Two good cores of cities on nice terrain supporting a large hinterland of high-corruption cities beats the hell out of less productive cores coupled with moderately corrupted hinterlands.

3) The barbell-shaped continent, or something kinda like it. Catt's map above isn't exactly a barbell, but it does allow for a pretty good Palace/FP setup*. This is my favorite, as it is pretty easy to decide on your Palace/FP locations. Then I don't have to agonize over the decision. My "Game of Ultimate Power" and recent Egyptian game were cases of #3, and they were two of my best games ever.

Modifying each of these scenarios, of course, is your starting location. If you're on or near the coast, off on a pennisula or something, it makes sense to build the Forbidden inland a bit, but still relatively close to your capitol, and then move the palace later (did this with Rome recently and it worked like a charm).


* - what Catt did makes perfect sense since he was playing on Diety. On monarch, he probably could have taken over his continent MUCH earlier, allowing for a FP around where the red circle intersects with the circles for "2" and "3" and a Palace move down by "4" probably just NE of it.

It's all a question of what you can manage, and WHEN. Catt eventually took over his home continent. But it took him until late in the modern age to do it. Holding out for a better FP spot than he has would have been suicidal. The choice is a bit tougher on a lower level of play, as you are always tempted to hold out for that perfect spot. I'd say you need to have the FP built by the early middle ages, at the latest. Waiting longer than that is folly, IMHO.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Arrian
I would argue it is better to pick your spots based upon terrain. Two good cores of cities on nice terrain supporting a large hinterland of high-corruption cities beats the hell out of less productive cores coupled with moderately corrupted hinterlands.

Absolutely agree. You need a nice mixture of grassland, hills and mountains to ensure enough shield production for your core. I will often also be influenced with an eye towards a future IW city. Hills, mountains and jungle are promising, and an early iron deposit catches my attention in searching for an FP location.

. . . what Catt did makes perfect sense since he was playing on Diety.

Actually, Emperor - but I'll take credit for Deity!

On monarch, he probably could have taken over his continent MUCH earlier, allowing for a FP around where the red circle intersects with the circles for "2" and "3" and a Palace move down by "4" probably just NE of it.

This was a game that I actually lost and replayed again from about 3200 BC, and you're absolutely right that I had to have an FP up and running as soon as possible just to compete. My starting terrain was terrible and a hyper-aggressive Shaka Zulu to my south enjoyed some prime land - the early game was all about survival.

But the other improtant factor relating to the map screenshot is that it was a small map -- OCN = 12. Emperor's 85% optimal city modifier meant an OCN of 9. Even with modifiers like courthouses, police stations, and WLTKD, there was simply no way I was going to get widespread production from that continent approaching anything close to Arrian's production in the GoUP.

BTW - everyone interested in the Palace - FP location issue should definitely review Arrian's game - it is the best example of the perfect barbell positioning I've seen posted - the thread is here.

Catt

[Arrian]

Oh, emperor, that's right. I think I transformed it into Deity because of the starting position, which did indeed suck.

I intend to post, for the purposes of this discussion, both my recent Egyptian game (palace/fp as good as GoUP, but earlier) and my earlier Roman game, where I built the FP in a central spot for my empire at the time, and later moved the palace. If I'm not too tired when I get home tonight, I will work on the minimap and F1 data screenshots.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Here's where I get confused... building the FP near your original palace (if it's in a central location), and then, at some unknown later date, using a GL to move the Palace.

It seems like a huge waste to me. I'd rather build some other Wonder, especially through the medieval age.


Maybe I just don;t get it...

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Building the FP near the capitol is pretty easy, since a city which produces 8 shields/turn will do it in 25 turns. How far out you build it depends on a number of factors. Once completed, it will give you a boost in productivity. Obviously not as much as you would get from an optimal one, but a boost nonetheless. Furthermore, it allows you to fully develop a large core area (hereinafter referred to as a "core and a half"). Early in the game, you're a despot. Corruption is bad. The "ring" of corruption fighting power that emanates from your palace and FP is rather small. Plus, you have only 1 anti-corruption building, the courthouse. Later in the game, you will be using a better form of government, you will have access to police stations, and hopefully can manage your cities into WLTKD. You "core" areas are probably almost double the size they were in the ancient era. Thus, the FP that is built in the ancient era near the edge of what was your core back then, now covers your original palace location, keeping it as "core" or close to it.

Using a leader to move one's palace is obviously a luxury. I'm not gonna give up the Sistine for it, if that's what you think. Building the FP early on to have a sort of "core and a half" gives you enough of a boost (at least on monarch) to help with the wonder races.

I think the Roman game I'm going to post will help explain it. It was practically a no-brainer. Rome was just in a terrible spot corruption-wise (the land itself was lovely... it was the ocean to the east and se coupled with the desert to the north that was the problem).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Doh! I just noticed your caveat... "if it's in a central location."

Hmm. If my Palace is nicely centered, I will most likely just try to rush the FP with a leader in an "optimal" spot.

For a builder, or hybrid buildmonger, it still may be best to manually build the FP for "core and a half" purposes. Some people just don't like early war.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Arrian, are you sure about the core and a half concept? I thought corruption reduction comes from EITHER the Palace or FP, which one being determined by distance.

So, if you build say, 9 towns, with the Palace in the center, and then 3 more:

XXXN
XPXN
XXXN

You'll get "core" benefits at the Xs, and somewhat less benefit at the Ns.

If inner X builds the FP, you get full benefit at the Ns:

XXXX
XPFX
XXXX

It just doesn't seem like it's worthwhile to me... even if there were no Wonders to build, and I didn't currently need another Army (strange but true, it's happened; I'd still rather build the Army, and hang on to the shell).

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Well, I typically would build the FP two cities over from the palace, and you know my city spacing methods... so that is approximately 9-10 tiles between the palace and FP. Sure, they overlap in terms of corruption-fighting. But that's part of the plan. If they are nice and close (but the FP is better centered), moving the palace later won't cost you a bunch of core cities. They will still be pretty close to the FP.

Again, as with my GoUP and recent Egypt game (which probably had more UP than the GoUP), if I have the opportunity to do so, I'd rather rush the FP in an optimal spot early on and leave the palace where it is (though I did end up moving the palace a tad bit in the GoUP, but that's the perfectionist corruption fighter in me).

This FP close-to-home strategy is for situations that do not allow for rapid early military expansion. In Catt's case, it was a tough emperor start with a rabid, impi-wielding Shaka all over him. In my Roman game, it was a case of asking for "continents" and getting a pangea, plus other geographical concerns. That, and not wanting to fight the Zulu pre-Chivalry (Zululand is where I moved my capitol eventually). I crippled Egypt early with archers (no leaders), which allowed me to expand well, so my FP did boost me significantly, because my empire was pretty big, and all the expansion was westward from Rome for quite some time.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Theseus
Here's where I get confused... building the FP near your original palace (if it's in a central location), and then, at some unknown later date, using a GL to move the Palace.

It seems like a huge waste to me. I'd rather build some other Wonder, especially through the medieval age.


Maybe I just don;t get it...

It's not always the right move, but may be the right move even if the Palace starts in a nice location. The advantage is that manually building the FP doesn't burn a leader, and starts generating great corrruption savings and waste savings early in the game. I'm a big believer in getting the FP up as soon as possible. But I also believe in generating GLs and so really want to have a victorious army and HE built as well. In those games where early leaders promise to be few and far in between, I will usually build the FP and use a GL on an army.

The Middle Ages are certainly wonder rich (especially the first half of the age), but I don't necessarily covet all the wonders. I want Sistine (even with non-religious civ). I want Leo's. I would very much like Bach's (unless on a very small island). Sun Tzu's is nice, provided I'm on a largish landmass. I usually get Adam Smith's just through smart pre-building (can't remember burning a leader on it, but I usually get it). The science wonders are nice. Magellan's is a bonus, usually achieved with a wonder switch if I miss another wonder. Absent a real risk of losing Sistine, Leo's and probably Bach's, I will often be much more inclined to relocate a palace to convert my one-and-a-half core into 2 solid cores.

But Palace relocation really comes into its own in the early Industrial Age, and is a great option from then onwards. First, there are essentially only 2 wonders in the Industrial Age - US and ToE -- either you get ToE and therefore also get Hoover's, or Hoover's can be very tough to get regardless (even with a GL, it sometimes takes longer to research the expensive techs and get to Electronics than it takes the AI who gets ToE to build Hoover's) -- if you lose ToE and have a chance at Hoover's, well I can't think of a much better use for a GL (again, map co-operating). In my experience, both US and ToE can be had via pre-building, and there is rarely a wonder cascade putting things at risk the way it so often happens in the early Middle Ages. After ToE, the only use for a GL is an army -- but if I've followed a typical game pattern, my Military Academy is already producing enough armies for me.

Using the GL for a Palace Relocation now makes sense: (1) I don't want a GL sitting around while I'm still fighting; (2) I can build both courthouses and police stations; (3) I can build factories; and (4) I should have a handle on keeping less than 12-pop cities in WLTKD. This usually means that I can relocate a Palace, and, within 40 or so turns (using some unit disbands and rush buying), relocate it again while leaving behind a pretty productive little "ex-core." With 2 real cores and 1 or 2 "ex-cores," I am outproducing the AI even on Emperor (not enough experience at Deity to say), even if the AI has a similar sized empire in terms of land controlled.

To sum up: (1) manually building the FP and relocating the Palace trades a later GL for an earlier GL (i.e., don't need to use an early GL on the FP); (2) is not always the right move, especially in the wonder-rich Middle Ages; (3) becomes much more powerful upon entry into the Industrial Ages; and (4) is often the only viable use for a GL if one has been cranking out armies from the MA.

Catt

[Theseus]

Catt, don;t get me wrong, I love an early FP too, just not next to my Palace.

I thought the FP in the example screen shot was just about perfect.

For instance, did you build the FP on your home continent in SR's Banana game? I just didn't see the point, and there was too much else to do.

And I LOVE this Palace jumping thing... very slick and sophisticated, as I've said before.

[Catt]

Sophisticated, Schmistophicated - it just better bring results or its a waste of a leader .

I won't build the FP next to my Palace either - like Arrian, I want it at least a city ring or two away - far enough so that I will have the opportunity to develop a true "core-and-a-half" but close enough that I can build it without writing off production in one city for a third of the game. Its advantage, I think, is a variation on the whole "build an army?" question that confronts us upon generation of the first GL - do I trade a current wonder or FP for the HE and increased future chances for leaders?

The reason I'm liking the "manually build FP" more and more lately is that the random map generator and the AU games have been giving me archipelago and/or continents-max-water maps again and again -- its just so much harder to generate a handful of early GLs when every military engagement requires a sealift. With that in mind, the Russia game from which I extracted the minimap for this thread is a bit of an unusual occurence - I had a lot of land for fighting, but OTOH I was so hamstrung for room to expand that I didn't even build my FP until the 1300's AD! I had generated an ultra-early GL from Shaka's first invasion and used it to build the Pyramids to maximize my pop growth in crappy terrain. A second GL appeared before I had enough cities to even think of burning it on an FP - I may have had 5 cities already and so been technically able to build the FP, but the 5 cities were my capitol and one measly quasi-ring I built an army and left it empty until horseback riding.

**** Warning Banana Isle Spoiler ****

Yeah, I built my FP on my main island on the coast due north of my resource island, only about 8 tiles south of Delhi -- intending to relocate my palace to one of the future Indian islands (but now don't see the point). I think the manually built FP in Banana Isle has helped me a bit - I built (IIRC) 9 cities on my main island, only one on my resource island - so no OCN problems early as sometimes happens on a continents or pangea map; but the FP did wonders for the distance corruption that otherwsie would have severely affected my resource island and the two cities I located on the "desert peninsula" stretching west - the bottom of my banana.

Turns out that the Commercial trait, combined with courthouses, WTLKD and eventually factories and police stations is doing wonders -- I own the formerly Persian Banana, and have found that there is no need to relocate a Palace - the island is doing quite well on its own. I'll soon take the whole of the English Banana, and we'll see if a Palace jump is in order. Problem is, I (and others) are building spaceship parts -- I told myself around the time of Industrialization that I wanted to win via domination or conquest, so I need to do some capitol razing soon -- but the game is really starting to lag on my pitiful older laptop - I wil probably just launch and prepare an AAR.

Catt

[Theseus]

I'm not having a problem with corruption in Persia either, and that's with no FP at all!! (but hot damn I gotta lot of luxuries!)

[Arrian]

Ok, the aforementioned Roman game:

Rome, my original capitol (duh) is circled in Yellow. Cumae, where I built the FP during my golden age in 150AD, is circled in blue. Ulundi, where I relocated my palace in 800AD, is circled in black.

[Arrian]

The attached save is from 1300AD. Economic data:

Commerce from cities: 1522
Commerce lost to corruption: 269

That's between 15%and 20% if my math is right, which considering some of the far-flung cities I have, isn't bad (democracy).

The colors didn't come out that great, so in case you can't tell, Rome is by the coast, Cumae is two cities over to the west, and Ulundi is up north.

[Arrian]

Now for the more conventional approach.

Attached is a screenshot of the map of my crazy Egypt game in 130AD. Circled in blue is Thebes. Circled in Red is London, where I rushed the FP in 690BC. I'm a Monarchy, in my golden age. Economic data:

Commerce: 268
Lost to corruption: 67
Exactly 25%

[Arrian]

Here is the save from 130AD, for those who are curious. I just generated a leader on the Russian (southeastern) front. I saved him for the Sistine.

[Arrian]

Since Theseus was curious about it (admittedly, in a different thread, sorry for the slight threadjack), here is a screenshot of my "Sword of Damocles" from the turn upon which the Greeks violated a RoP to attack me (with a Cavalry, which lost). 16 Tanks next to Athens, 12 more to the west, and 12 or so more further west.

The Greeks died badly.

[Arrian]

Here is the 1715 save, prior to moving any of my units. Economic data (democracy):

From cities: 3708
corruption: 903

Roughly 23%, I believe.

I never moved my Palace to the SE, which would center it a bit better, but if you look at the save, you will understand. My southern provinces were not blessed with very good terrain, so a move would have helped little. Additionally, I did not have a leader handy, so I would have had to build it manually.

[Arrian]

Here is a screenshot of the city I am proudest of, New Alexandria. It is my original overseas "colony" city, which I put down to grab the gems on the mountain to the NE of the city.

There was a influence 1 chinese city two tiles SE, and there was (is, captured) an Aztec city four or five tiles to the NE. The gems was in neutral territory. As soon as I founded New Alexandria, both the chinese and aztecs sent stacks of troops my way. I had sent the settler over w/o escort to make sure I got it there quickly, so my troops were en route (and they were offensive units). I rushed a temple, barracks, and three spearmen before the chinese stack (archers) got there. I held against the sneak attack, and bought alliances with the Aztecs, Romans and Greeks vs. China. The Aztecs hit me the next turn (by now I had a harbor and had upgraded to musketmen, and my knights were pouring in). If you care to see the result, retire and watch the replay.

The reason I'm proud of the city is that it is an awfully long way from either my Palace or FP. But with a courthouse, police station, and the appropriate happiness improvements... well, you can see the corruption level. For those who hate corruption... I give you New Alexandria. It took a lot of work, but I got it to the point where it can actually produce things (like the mass transit it is building).